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#27 Jan 18 2006 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Whether it was or not really depends on the point being made.

Not everything said that makes one or more people angry or uncomfortable is "a horrible choice of words". Some things are meant to be provocative.

And for the record, I don't support Mrs. Clinton as a Presidential candidate. On the other hand I don't see her as the anti-Christ, either.


I agree with you to an extent. The plantation comment was indeed meant to be provocative. My sentiments were directed toward the "you know what I'm talking about" statement. She personalized her address with this punctuation.
#28 Jan 18 2006 at 1:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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My sentiments were directed toward the "you know what I'm talking about" statement. She personalized her address with this punctuation.


And you think she meant to do something else?
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#29 Jan 18 2006 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
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No. No I don't. Which brings me roundabout to my original point. How can she relate to what the slaves endured?
#30 Jan 18 2006 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Mearyk wrote:
No. No I don't. Which brings me roundabout to my original point. How can she relate to what the slaves endured?


which rings it all full circle by saying "how can those black people relate to waht the slaves endured?".



Personally I find nothing wrong with a White person evoking the past to make a point.

To condemn her for saying it just because she is white is RACISM plain and simple.
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#31 Jan 18 2006 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure that one has to have direct knowledge or experience of a circumstance in order to draw parallels. Certainly the concept of empathy would argue against that.
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#32 Jan 18 2006 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wingchild wrote:
The funny part is, slavery still exists, and it's still predominantly black.

There exists a government program whereby a large body of people are kept fed and clothed, where they are not given access to good education and where they're given no incentives to better themselves. They are stuck at the bottom of the social ladder and have no way to escape their caste.

Welfare is Slavery. Modern day slaves just work less than their forebears.
But I thought everyone could better their lot and become multi-bajillionaires by keeping at it.

You can subscribe to the "anyone can do it" theory, in which case all welfare does is help insure that those who don't bother are kept fed and clothed (as well as their children) or else you can subscribe to the "It's not always possible" theory in which case welfare is keeping these people who aren't at fault fed and clothed.

Either way, I don't see where social services are at fault.
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#33 Jan 18 2006 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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If thats the case, then she would have as much knowledge regarding the plight of slavery as anyone else.
#34 Jan 18 2006 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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AngryUndead wrote:
If thats the case, then she would have as much knowledge regarding the plight of slavery as anyone else.


I think it's fair to say that she has as much direct and personal knowledge of the institution of slavery in America as any other living American. Which is to say, none.
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#35 Jan 18 2006 at 2:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
I think it's fair to say that she has as much direct and personal knowledge of the institution of slavery in America as any other living American. Which is to say, none.
Spoken like someone whose mom didn't make them stay home to mow the lawn when all their friends were going to the movies Smiley: mad
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#36 Jan 18 2006 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
I'm not sure that one has to have direct knowledge or experience of a circumstance in order to draw parallels. Certainly the concept of empathy would argue against that.


After taking my head out of my *** and rereading this post and Kelvy's a few times I realize you do make great points that I had not considered. I tend to shoot from the hip. I heard her comments and they just irked me. I still don't agree with her choice of words or the way she delivered them.
#37 Jan 18 2006 at 2:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, context is important, too:

Mrs.Clinton wrote:
the House "has been run like a plantation," in that "nobody with a contrary view has had a chance to present legislation, to make an argument, to be heard."


I tend to agree with the second part, from what I've read.
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#38REDACTED, Posted: Jan 18 2006 at 2:27 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#39 Jan 18 2006 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Samira wrote:
I think it's fair to say that she has as much direct and personal knowledge of the institution of slavery in America as any other living American. Which is to say, none.
Spoken like someone whose mom didn't make them stay home to mow the lawn when all their friends were going to the movies Smiley: mad


Well, she had to get rid of all those bunny rabbits somehow.
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#40 Jan 18 2006 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
But I thought everyone could better their lot and become multi-bajillionaires by keeping at it.

You can subscribe to the "anyone can do it" theory, in which case all welfare does is help insure that those who don't bother are kept fed and clothed (as well as their children) or else you can subscribe to the "It's not always possible" theory in which case welfare is keeping these people who aren't at fault fed and clothed.


I wish the issue were so black and white, with only two choices to choose from. If the world were such a place I would concur that social services create no particular evil.

The theory I like is the one that says expansive social services remove any incentive to work by providing safety and security for every man, woman, and child, be they unable or unwilling to take care of themselves. This is where I see the start of the problem.

Can you imagine growing up as the second-generation in a welfare family? Mom and/or Dad tell you that the check comes once a month and that buys your groceries, keeps you in clothes, and that's all there is to it. Since the basic needs are met, what drive have you to educate yourself? What is it that makes you strive? Why would you bother? You aren't starving and other people have got it worse, after all. You should be thankful for things you've got!

My theory has social services removing people's motivation for improving, which in turn leads to them losing their ability to compete in the world. We have spent time and money coddling people who can remain functionally illiterate and unskilled. As there has been no consequence for their lack of effort, they opt to wallow in ignorance. Should the government teat ever be taken away they will starve to death, for they will have neither the skills to enter the workforce, nor the ability to obtain same.

We're making ignorant little slave-children. I keep waiting for Mother Government to roll out some welfare work-programs, something where the useless welfare babies can go pick up trash, or mow lawns, or work sugar plantations or whatever the fu[b][/b]ck it is we opt for them to do in the coming century. It will prove a great way to get a return on this endless investment. It will bring our society 'round full circle.


I would prefer that welfare not exist, that people be presented with the option of starving to death should they not find a way to make ends meet. If they starve, they starve - no burden on the taxpayer, and no further obligation to society. If they live, they will thrive, for they've already overcome the biggest hurdle.
#41 Jan 18 2006 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
Samira wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Samira wrote:
I think it's fair to say that she has as much direct and personal knowledge of the institution of slavery in America as any other living American. Which is to say, none.
Spoken like someone whose mom didn't make them stay home to mow the lawn when all their friends were going to the movies Smiley: mad


Well, she had to get rid of all those bunny rabbits somehow.


I actually ran over a nest of baby rabbits while I was mowing my lawn last year. I had forgotten about it but now I have to relive the pain!
#42 Jan 18 2006 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
Wingchild wrote:
I would prefer that welfare not exist, that people be presented with the option of starving to death should they not find a way to make ends meet.


They would probably resort to crime until forced to stop, and then get their free stuff in prison.
#43 Jan 18 2006 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wingchild wrote:
The theory I like is the one that says expansive social services remove any incentive to work by providing safety and security for every man, woman, and child, be they unable or unwilling to take care of themselves. This is where I see the start of the problem.

Can you imagine growing up as the second-generation in a welfare family? Mom and/or Dad tell you that the check comes once a month and that buys your groceries, keeps you in clothes, and that's all there is to it. Since the basic needs are met, what drive have you to educate yourself? What is it that makes you strive? Why would you bother? You aren't starving and other people have got it worse, after all. You should be thankful for things you've got!
Slavery, by definition, is involuntary. "Not bothering" is completely a voluntary decision. Are you disagreeing with the notion that people have the potential to better themselves?

You don't like social services, fine. But your comparison of it to slavery is nothing but hyperbole. Weak hyperbole at that.
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#44 Jan 18 2006 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I would prefer that welfare not exist, that people be presented with the option of starving to death should they not find a way to make ends meet. If they starve, they starve - no burden on the taxpayer, and no further obligation to society. If they live, they will thrive, for they've already overcome the biggest hurdle.


As you say, it would be nice if things really were this black and white. Of course it isn't. Starving people do create problems for the non-starving, after all; and if they live and thrive in spite of society, they may not turn out to be the good and self reliant citizens you envision.

Workhouses were tried, in the 19th century. They didn't work out so well for society as a whole.
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#45 Jan 18 2006 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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achileez wrote:
What a pleasure to watch you whacked out libs justify Hitlaries remarks.
Justify what? I said I thought it was a stupid thing to say. I still do.

None of which has any effect on her Senatorial campaign.
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#46 Jan 18 2006 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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If saying stupid things meant you couldn't be president, our next president would be a Pet Rock
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#47 Jan 18 2006 at 2:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I only post here so that, someday when I run for president, the Drudge Report can dig up Forum=4 archives and run stories about how I advocate sex with cats, keeping children in my trunk and casually use racist slang.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#48 Jan 18 2006 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Danalog the Vengeful Programmer wrote:
If saying stupid things meant you couldn't be president, our next president would be a Pet Rock


o god, not ANOTHER ONE!

ba ba boom!
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#49 Jan 18 2006 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Joph wrote:
achileez wrote:
What a pleasure to watch you whacked out libs justify Hitlaries remarks.


Justify what? I said I thought it was a stupid thing to say. I still do.


Ha. He responds to a remark to "whacked out libs"!
#50 Jan 18 2006 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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He addressed the post to "Jophed" Smiley: tongue
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#51 Jan 18 2006 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Ha. He responded to Jophed!

I got nothin...

Edit: Words > Me

Edited, Wed Jan 18 15:30:35 2006 by AngryUndead
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