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#1 Jan 09 2006 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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http://umanitoba.ca/manitoban/2005-2006/0104/9315.precision.in.ancient.architecture.php

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The Mayans had a sophisticated calendar, losing only one day in 6000 years.

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The perimeter of the Great Pyramid at Giza is approximately 3,023 feet and the height is 481 feet. In addition to exemplifying a ratio of exactly 2p, its measurements are said to possibly represent the Northern Hemisphere of the earth, on a scale of 1 : 43,200. Though controversial, some interpret this number as exactly 20 times the precessional number of 2160, representing the precession of the earth through 20 different zodiac constellations or ‘ages.’


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Mayan site of Chichen Itza exemplifies the culture’s celestial orientation. The huge step pyramid (the pyramid of Kukulcan) that is the focus of the site has 91 steps on each of its sides, which add up to 364 steps. Adding the platform on top, there are 365 steps in total — the number of days in a year.


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due to precession, every 2160 years on the vernal equinox the sun rises in a different constellation. As mentioned above, we will be moving out of the age of Pisces and into the age of Aquarius around the end of 2012.










So it makes one wonder waht was up with these people..

They obviously were aware that they were on a planet and were aware of the size of the planet. They obviously had some kind of total obsession with celestial movements and heavenly bodies.

Was it simply an obsession? Many insist on putting some exiting slant on the whole thing; insisting that there must be some tangable reason for these ancient culture so painstakingly keeping track of the stars and the planets.. a logical reason that is.. such as trying to contact the "mothership" or trying to plot the course of incoming comets or meteors..

I'm more privy to the fact that these people compared to us today (mentally) were quite simply insane, by everyway that we would define it. We don't know waht kind of things that they believed... they may have believed that if they didn't plot the stars that some God was going to kill them, based on a dream that somone had.... we just don't know the mentality of these ancient peoples.... The chances that there was some practical reason for these activities seems pretty bleak based on our current knowledge of these primitive peoples.

All it could take is one mathematical genius to be born in an ancient culture for the **** to hit the fan. If some mad-nut decides to start explaining themselves to primitive peoples, I'm sure the complexity of it alone would be enough for them to start calling it divine.

HOwever, we already know that the ancient Egyptians believed that the celestial world should mirror the earth world.... so based on this one belief I can easily see some kind of mass hysteria about keeping everyhting as accurate as possible.... suc as keeping the Pyramids lined up with Orion's Belt and so on.

There is somthing to be said however regarding these "cycles" of the Earth. Is there any significance to them? So if over a period of 26,000 years the North Pole moves and the magnetic field of the Earth and the weather and the land masses all change..... would this be an indicator of somthing apocalyptic?

we know that these cycles happen, and that it greatly changes the state of the planet. The main argument is the Age of Civilization. At the time being, we only think that it is about 5000 years old... a mere fraction of Man's time on this Earth.

Based on that, be assume that before 5000 years that people were ignorant savages; club-weilding, unaware, and freshly out of the cave. However, if you concider the vast knowledge of some of these peoples.... if you concider the myths of some of these people.. many of which speak of "ancient ones" and "lost cities" how could be not concider the possiblity that before "all of this" that there may be 100,000s of 1000s of years of some Lost History?

It has found to be true that the Earth with "flush herself out" every 13,000 years or so, as the state of weather and geological conditions on the planet balance themselves out:

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due to varying gravitational forces, the axis wobbles (precesses) in a clockwise circle. Just imagine the way the axis of a top spins as it begins to fall. So, the angle of the earth stays the same (or somewhere within its three degree variance), but the direction in which it points changes. For example, our current North Star is Polaris (or Ursae Minoris), as the North Pole points towards this star. However, approximately 13,000 years ago, the North Pole would have pointed towards the star Vega, as it will do again in about another 13,000 years. It takes about 25,776 years to complete one precessional cycle.



So then how far fetched is it that before our known civilizations existed, that there may have been older ones that have long sinse crumbled in the cycles of the Earth and that some of our oldest civilizations may contain our closest hints to the knowledge of these. There are indeed many enigmas surrounding these....


My Point you ask?

I have too much time and caffeine.Smiley: tongue
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#2 Jan 09 2006 at 12:18 PM Rating: Default
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Good ole UofM.

Go Bison!!!
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#3 Jan 09 2006 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Kelvy wrote:
My Point you ask?

I have too much time and weed. Smiley: tongue


We can tell.
#4 Jan 09 2006 at 12:40 PM Rating: Default
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He sounds like a bright eye first year anthro student.

It's cute.
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#5 Jan 09 2006 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
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NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
Kelvy wrote:
My Point you ask?

I have too much time and weed. Smiley: tongue


We can tell.


I don't think it's a matter of weed here, as one can't really have too much. It's a matter of time, since one can surely have too much free time on their hands. Remember, idle hands are the debil's workshop.


Kelv:
Wouldn't this be explained, to some extent, in the fossil records?
#6 Jan 09 2006 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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bodhisattva wrote:
He sounds like a bright eye first year anthro student.

It's cute.


any gold-mine is worthless unless it is mined.






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Wouldn't this be explained, to some extent, in the fossil records?


rocks don't talk.

It's a pretty big planet, and waht like.. over 70% of it is underwater?



Edited, Mon Jan 9 12:51:09 2006 by Kelvyquayo
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#7 Jan 09 2006 at 12:50 PM Rating: Default
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Kelvyquayo, Defender of Justice wrote:
I am prone to flights of fancy.
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#8 Jan 09 2006 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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how much of your "Anthro" do you think you'll remember 10 years outta school?

and how much do you think will change?
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#9 Jan 09 2006 at 1:00 PM Rating: Default
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Kelvyquayo, Defender of Justice wrote:
how much of your "Anthro" do you think you'll remember 10 years outta school?

and how much do you think will change?


If I can ever forget about Erectus/Ergaster/Movius Line/Acheulian/Oldowan it will not be to soon. That paper haunts me a year later.

Theories change as new evidence comes to light. All you have to do is look at the change on dates of evolution at the advent of absolute dating techniques in the 50/60/70's. Theories and are flexible and able to change to meet new evidence. However theories based less on evidence and more on a pot heads ramblings and backed up by the argument "theories change" are about as flawed as you can get and not worth the time.

Doesn't even make for an interesting "what if?".
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#10 Jan 09 2006 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Kelvyquayo, Defender of Justice wrote:
Quote:



So it makes one wonder waht was up with these people..

They obviously were aware that they were on a planet and were aware of the size of the planet. They obviously had some kind of total obsession with celestial movements and heavenly bodies.

Was it simply an obsession?
They didn't have the internets to keep them busy at night....or even TV, radio electricity or Allakhazams.

People used to go outside then too. Why would one question their intimacy with celestial bodies?


Quote:
I'm more privy to the fact that these people compared to us today (mentally) were quite simply insane
Is this one of your past life thingies?


Quote:
There is somthing to be said however regarding these "cycles" of the Earth. Is there any significance to them? So if over a period of 26,000 years the North Pole moves and the magnetic field of the Earth and the weather and the land masses all change..... would this be an indicator of somthing apocalyptic?
There are actually 3 cyclic changes that the earth undergoes. The other two have periodicities of around 40K years and 100K years if I remember right.

Quote:
So then how far fetched is it that before our known civilizations existed, that there may have been older ones that have long sinse crumbled
I'd say it's not that far-fetched but I doubt the civilizations that may still be lost to us were highly advanced.

These earthly catastrophies don't happen over night, they happen over many generations or hundreds of thousands of years, giving an advanced species an opportunity to adapt, plan, move, leave some trace of themselves to caryy on. It's not like a blanket of rock just came and laid itself down on top of a civilization and BOOM it's gone now.


[quote]I have too much time and caffeine.Smiley: tongue
Did the Mayans make the first cup of coffee?

Don't short change the fossil record. There is much to be learned of climate, atmosphere, chemical composition, etc. All things that can help puzzle together WHERE and WHEN people might have been able to live and advance.



Edited, Mon Jan 9 13:19:08 2006 by Elinda
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#12 Jan 09 2006 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
Is this an ancient secret too?
#13 Jan 09 2006 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
bodhisattva wrote:

the advent of absolute dating techniques


Is that like online dating or speed dating?
#14 Jan 09 2006 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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more like potassium argon dating of volcanic materials in sediment to fix a date on items found in the sediment. Or the more famous C14 carbon dating for organic materials.
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#15 Jan 09 2006 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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However theories based less on evidence and more on a pot heads ramblings and backed up by the argument "theories change" are about as flawed as you can get and not worth the time.



My ideas about the possibility of lost civilizations are hardly my own, troll.


As far as Global Procession and the fact that these cultures had such an advanced astronomical viewpoints are fairly grounded are they not?

I'm just sharing my views on these "dots" connected.
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#16 Jan 09 2006 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Kelvyquayo, Defender of Justice wrote:
Quote:
However theories based less on evidence and more on a pot heads ramblings and backed up by the argument "theories change" are about as flawed as you can get and not worth the time.



My ideas about the possibility of lost civilizations are hardly my own, troll.


As far as Global Procession and the fact that these cultures had such an advanced astronomical viewpoints are fairly grounded are they not?

I'm just sharing my views on these "dots" connected.


You're connecting the dots like a down syndrome kid with preceptual disabilities. Even worse you are using played out and ****** ideas.
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#17 Jan 09 2006 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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Even worse you are using played out and sh*tty ideas.


how so?
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#18 Jan 09 2006 at 3:04 PM Rating: Default
I find it ridiculous that others oppose Kelvy's proposition yet hardly have any basis to defy it.

With self proclaimed knowledge and accomplishment one could only sit safely idle in a argumentitive state behind the comfort of a PC screen. Kelvy for one is a not "new" to these subjects and underqualified than say the rest of you who someowhat seem to place yourselves on "higher ground" if you will.

I just find it ignorant to argue these points rather than discuss. But then again this is the asylum and everybody is harboring a Epenis these days.
#19 Jan 09 2006 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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Well, while it is correct that these ideas are nothing new, the notions perhaps may be new to persons who actually never took any Antroplogy classes in Canada.

One sign of a true snob such as BHodisattva is to assume that just because he has chewed his own meat and spit it out, that everyone elses should be equally chewed and ejected.


These ideas aren't Old and Worn Out,


wehn someone proposed the Helicopter, did someone point to Da Vinci's work and say, SORRY, that's been tried?
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#20 Jan 09 2006 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Kelvyquayo, Defender of Justice wrote:
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Even worse you are using played out and sh*tty ideas.


how so?


We have been over this Kelvy.

I don't know if you truly believe what you are saying or if you just like to argue the mystical and opposite of accepted in an effort to tickle some desperate need to appear anti-establishment, perhaps a need to feel academic while at it. It doesn't matter.

What you tend to do is:

a) State some silly bullsh[/b]it like "Polynesians got to hawaii with alien help, but the aliens werent alien but rather people from the future that were so different that they might as well have been alien and that is how the pineapple was invented"

b)People tell you that it is bullsh[b]
it.

c)You fall back upon a self fullfilling house of card arguments that requires one ******** excuse followed by another to sustain itself.

I think Smasharoo broke it down more technically in an OOT post about 18 months ago, I am no harvard phd so I dumbed it down.

Edited, Mon Jan 9 15:19:42 2006 by bodhisattva
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#21 Jan 09 2006 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
EonsdarkCaitsith wrote:
Whiney stuff


Who are you? Smiley: dubious
#22 Jan 09 2006 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Kelvyquayo, Defender of Justice wrote:
One sign of a true snob such as BHodisattva is to assume that just because he has chewed his own meat and spit it out, that everyone elses should be equally chewed and ejected.


You want to call me on intellectual snobbery?

How about the guy that spouts random ideas borrowed mainly from hack writers and **** poor metaphysical scientists in some desperate plea to appear as the misunderstood but truly correct academic struggling and fighting against some entrenched and wrong type of thinking.

Try again ****.

Edited, Mon Jan 9 15:26:21 2006 by bodhisattva
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#23 Jan 09 2006 at 3:26 PM Rating: Decent
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bodhisattva wrote:
What you tend to do is:
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#24 Jan 09 2006 at 3:26 PM Rating: Default
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EonsdarkCaitsith wrote:

Whiney stuff




Who are you?



*speaks in a New Yorker Jew voice* "I aammm nooot whiiiiny"
#25 Jan 09 2006 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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EonsdarkCaitsith wrote:
I find it ridiculous that others oppose Kelvy's proposition yet hardly have any basis to defy it.

With self proclaimed knowledge and accomplishment one could only sit safely idle in a argumentitive state behind the comfort of a PC screen. Kelvy for one is a not "new" to these subjects and underqualified than say the rest of you who someowhat seem to place yourselves on "higher ground" if you will.

I just find it ignorant to argue these points rather than discuss. But then again this is the asylum and everybody is harboring a Epenis these days.


One man's argument is another man's discussion... Or... The difference between an argument and a discussion is dependant on whether you happen to agree with the subject...

Honestly, I find it *more* ignorant to try to have discussions with no argument. The only way to do that is to have everyone agree before they start talking. Call it a hunch, but I suspect that no one learns much that way.


As to this topic in particular, while Kelv brings up some "interesting" points, I think that people tend to leap to conclusions when they aren't really supported by the facts. This is a classic case where you find the half dozen things that "can't be coincidental", so you assume that they aren't. However, Kelv isn't looking at the infinite number of things that *could* be related with each topic but aren't.

What I'm getting at is that if all you do is list the things that match your proposition, then it given unfair weight to it. Note that Kelv makes a point about the great pyramids being in the pattern of Orion, but not the others. The Great Pyrimids don't happen to have 91 steps on a side, times four plus one is 365. Get it? Each is an interesting fact taken by itself. But the fact that one pyrimid happens to have 365 steps out of scores of pyrimid structures around the world can't be shown to be anything other then coincidence. Same with the layout of the Pyrimids at Giza. They happen to look like orion's belt. But if they'd been layed out differently, you'd not be talking about how they *didn't* line up like Orion's belt, now would you? You're only looking at those things that seem significant and ignoring the ones that aren't.


Um... And what if the steps were numbered that way for a reason? Who cares? It's not like there's anything mystical about knowing that there are 365 days in a year. We know it. We mark it on every calendar in the world (cept for leap years of course!). Doesn't mean anything supernatural, nor does it mean anything more then the fact that we know how long the year is. Not exactly an amazing feat since every single agrarian society in history would have to have known that.


I guess my issue is that these things, even if not coincidental, don't really mean that much. We tend to assume, with our modern bias that one must fully understand the principles behind something before one can make use of it. That's really a very recent human costruct though. Do you know that until the Brittish Naval Academy started building ships by drawing designs and doing engineering calculations of them like in the 15th century, no ships had been built that way. They'd all just been built by craftsmen who knew how to build boats, taught by someone before them, using methods developed via trial and error. Yet, somehow men sailed across oceans in ships designe that way. Not one shred of engineering science applied to them. But they floated. And they got people where they needed to go.


Same deal with other ancient structures and such. It's not unusual at all that ancient cultures would have made a big deal about solar and celestial movements. And it doesn't require any mystical or advanced help to do it either. Again. We tend to do things very differently today then we did back then. Today, we plan and calculate and must understand everything about what we are doing before we do it. Back then, they did things via trial and error. They studied and recorded. You don't have to have an ounce of understanding of celestial mechanics to record the positions of particular stars over time. In fact, it's the same process that they *must* have used in order to calculate the seasons (which is required to succeed as an agrarian society, which in turn is required for you to ever think about doing things like building large stone structures). In the case of the seasons, they had to study the movement of the sun. It's absolutely required. There's nothing mystical or unusual about sites like Stonehenge with markings denoting the solstices and equinoxes. In fact, every single successful agrarian society would have to have used similar structures (although if they didn't happen to build them out of megaliths, they probably aren't still around for us to find).


Charting the movements of the stars would have been a next logical step. Again. It didn't require that they knew what those points of light were. It only required that they chart them and record the patterns that they moved in. Anyone can do that. You don't have to calculate the orbital paths of planets and stars to chart their movements over time in the night sky. You just have to have a lot of time and patience. Something that ancient scientists had a lot more of then our modern varients (in many cases because they had no choice).


It's not that Kelv's observations aren't valid. They are. I just don't happen to agree with the conclusions he comes to as a result. I see those things he lists and just see coincidence and logical structure. Maybe they build that pyrimid with 91 steps on a side so the total would add up to 365. Then again. Maybe 91 was a significant number for some other reason. Or maybe that just happened to be the number of slabs of the right size that *fit* up the side of the structure? Who knows?


Heck. Count how many stairs are in most flights in homes. You'll most often come up with the number 13. Is that some special reference? Or just that when you divide a comfortable sized step distance by the typical height of a single story in a home just happens to hit that number. Should we make something special out of that? At some point some number has to be involved. If we do nothing but look for special significance to every number, shape, direction, and orientation of everything around us, we're going to find a heck of a lot. But it's always important to stop and look around at how many things are *not* represented by significant things and take everything in proportion rather then looking at just the coincidences.
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#26 Jan 09 2006 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:

Heck. Count how many stairs are in most flights in homes. You'll most often come up with the number 13. Is that some special reference? Or just that when you divide a comfortable sized step distance by the typical height of a single story in a home just happens to hit that number.


Or maybe that step size feels comfortable in relation to the typical height of a single story because 13 is a significant number with much deeper meaning and people subconsciously structure their lives and buildings in ways that produce objects in multiples of 13.

Kelvy, pass it back man, I need another hit.

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