In regard to this so-called domestic spying...Follow

...yes, I am aware that there are other threads that have discussed this topic. But what I have not seen and what I believe is important that has not been said is that this type of "spying" has been done all through the '90s under a super-secret program named "Echelon." And, yes, for those who are keeping score (Shadowrelm, this is you) this occurred under the Clinton watch.

Am I blaming Clinton for doing this? No. If anything, I blame Bush for openly discussing what has been a matter of course for our intelligence community to keep tabs on threats to our open society.

Are there dangers associated with this kind of governmental watchfulness? Obviously yes. However, is it more dangerous than the threat posed by enemies who have already demonstrated that they will go much further than political discussion and begin comandeering airplanes or producing WMD? I submit to you that that is a far greater threat to your personal freedoms and security than a program which has a large system of checks and balances in place to prevent abuses.

Look, in a vacuum the fact that the government is waching your emails and listening to your phone conversations is a scary thing. But we don't live in a vacuum. We live in a world where if there was no oversight of the threats which surround us were not dealt with, the open society in which live would have ceased to exist decades ago. So instead we implement a system which monitors these enemies and puts in place a series of limiters that prevent a fallable governmental process from going too far.

It seems like a fair trade-off to me.

Totem

http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echelon.html

oh yeah



but Bush still sucks





and yes, that Echelon thing is real, cause I knew somone that was affiliated with it, or visited it, or saw the complex in England or somthing...

Edited, Tue Dec 20 11:05:55 2005 by Kelvyquayo

Bringing in Clinton, terrorists threats, WMD, references to 9/11, trying to justify what is un-american by using fear and saying the other guy did it to.

This thread reaks of desperation.

The person who leake the information needs to be tried for high treason. Disclosing intelligence information to a foreign government is bad enough. To disclose it to the press so that it is sure to be known by everyone places all of us at greater danger. People who **** and moan about government "spying" on it's citizens really do miss the big picture. I for one am all for it. Of course, my name's not Abdul, so I'm good.

Bush came right out and told us? Wow.. which papers have you been reading?

Jophiel, Bush announced it at a press conference this past week while discussing the Patriot Act. And yes, he came right out and spoke of it. Have you not been watching the news? Everyone in his administration has been defending his use of it all weeekend, from Condi on Meet the Press to the Attorney General holding a meeting with the press discussing this very issue.

Totem

After the story already broke. And he's been having kittens saying "Reporting this was a terrible breach" ever since.

The president said he supports a Justice Department investigation into the disclosure of the spying--first reported late last week in The New York Times. He raised his voice and furled his brow as he expressed his displeasure with whoever leaked word of the program.

"It was a shameful act for someone to disclose this very important program in a time of war," Bush said. "The fact that we're discussing this program is helping the enemy." -- AP

Maybe you and I just have very different defintions of "came right out and said it"...

Why didn't he get this angry over Plame?

Precisely. He came right out and acknowledged that the government is doing it. The normal respose is to stonewall and deny that anything of the sort is being done, and by-the-by, where did the Justice Dept. get such a crazy idea that we're spying on you?

No, he admitted that it was being done, had been done, and will continue to be done. Which, is exactly what has been the US' policy for decades.

Totem

After we were told the government was doing it

There's no reason to assume it wouldn't be "under wraps" today had it not been leaked by the media. Quite the open admission, indeed!

So to be fair, you people who dislike the present administration spying on you aren't just angry about the president doing this, but are upset that this has been happening since at least the 80's, right?

Just making sure your angst is well distributed...

Totem