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#77 Dec 11 2005 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
yossarian wrote:
EvilPhysicist wrote:
cwilloughby wrote:
...where did the first piece of mass come from to start the big bang then? Science cannot explain that can it?


As for the first happenings of matter, pick up a book on string theory before you say we have no idea.


I cannot find any reference to this - were you attempting to answer cwilloughby's quote above? Please elaborate.




http://superstringtheory.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/qg_ss.html]


Above is the first three links when typing a google search on string theory, or did you attempt some other database search and come up with nothing?

As for explaining string theory, i really dont have a few days to type, so please see the links above, or start studying now. If you really apply yourself, in about ten years youll probably be able to really understand a good paper on string theory. This is not a cocky attempt to sound intelligent, its just the math behind some of the core principles is rather tedious unfortunately. The links above should give you a basic understanding of one of the leading theories as to interdimensional physics and what MAY have happened before the Big Bang. As stated before, i have no idea if this is true or what actually happened, i was just annoyed at cwill's statement that science had no explanation for as to the happenings before the big bang and we should all just surrunder ourselves to the fact that the flying spaghetti monster did it.
#78 Dec 11 2005 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
EvilPhysicist wrote:


http://superstringtheory.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/gr/public/qg_ss.html]


Above is the first three links when typing a google search on string theory, or did you attempt some other database search and come up with nothing?

...The links above should give you a basic understanding of one of the leading theories as to interdimensional physics and what MAY have happened before the Big Bang. ...


I'm afraid you misunderstood my question. I know about string thoery :) My question was about your statement that it says something about time before the big bang.

Only your first link actually refers explicitly to "before the big bang". The second says nothing about it. The third is down for an upgrade.

In the first link, it refers to inflation as occuring before the big bang - and that's fine - but I was not aware that that was standard termanology. For exampl:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Big_Bang

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101inflation.html

Both seem to indicate the Big Bang occurs, then the world enters "an inflationary epoch" of some kind. This was my impression of the proper use of the termonology. However:

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/cosmology/inflation.html

for example, seems to agree with your superstringtheory.com, at least implicitly, that the Big Bang (proper) occurs after inflation.

But what we're really getting into here is when do we want to formally call the "beginning". Let us try to be clear. Before something, whether it is "the big bang" (or "inflation" or the Plank Time or the quantum gravity era or whatever we choose to call it...) physics says nothing.

And I think that is what cwilloughby was getting at when he wrote: "...where did the first piece of mass come from to start the big bang then? Science cannot explain that can it?"

I'm not saying you are wrong, or string thoery is wrong, just that I think your answer to cwilloughby's question could easily be construed as playing a semantic game rather then honestly admiting the limitations of science.

I think we both agree there is some time before which science says nothing (which on these graphs with the epochs and eras and ten raised to the minus whoo-ha seconds is usually zero).
#79 Dec 11 2005 at 10:53 PM Rating: Decent
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EvilPhysicist wrote:
Here is my definition of intelligence, or "The Mind", that i have come up with after years of asking myself the same questions:
The real time interpretation of sensory input registered and correlated with stored input to form a linear process of signal translation. Hence the linear intellectual development from a mindless **** machine to a quantum physicist as time progresses and information in attained. The key here is that as the stored sensory input increases, the individual is capable of examining it(past input or memories) in real time as well, allowing for a self awareness of time and a basis for intelligence and cognitive awareness as a macroscopic biogical organism.

Clearly, your perspective is mostly concerned with the brain and it's components, which is a great thing to be concerned with. But it's equally clear that your interpretation of neural events in the greater psychological context is in the language of cognitive psychology -- the idea that the neural structure somehow "maps" onto some sort of cognitive structure. I see this when you use the input-ouput metaphor and the terms "intelligence," "mind," and "memories." These are things. They are nouns. But what are "they?" Certainly not neural structure, as you already have names for those things.

This has been the errant pattern of psychology for many decades, mostly because it's inherent in our language that the wold is "made up of" nouns, so it's natural for us to always look for "things." But when it comes to psychological phenomena, I think it's much more useful to focus on the "action" part of the agent-action relationship. The right question isn't "what is a mind?" or "what is a thought?" We'll never find "it" except at the neural level. At the psychological level the right question is "what do we do when we speak covertly to ourselves, and how did we learn to do it?" or "what do we do when we think?"

To me, "the linear intellectual development from a mindless **** machine to a quantum physicist" is not very far removed from "the linear athletic development from spastic **** machine to a gold-medal winning gymnast." It is a progression of complexity -- learning -- from virtually nothing to something "great." In one case it's athletic achievement, in the other case it's language achievement -- a complexity of verbal behavior.

If I want to understand how the gymnast does her thing, I wouldn't start by making up metaphorical parallel-bar structures based on her skeleto-muscular composition. I also wouldn't ponder whether her inner skills are tapped into the quantum consciousness of the universe. I'd look at what she does and how she learned to do it. I'd do the same type of thing if I wanted to understand how the quantum physicist does his thing.


#80 Dec 12 2005 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
Nice Yossarian. That sounded very good. That is exactly what I meant.

Where did the first piece of material come from?

Also, I am not one to lean on Theology because it is based on so much faith. It makes for good reading though.

There has been to many assumptions made by one particular individual about myself. I am just looking from both sides, science and Theology to see if any answers are out there. I have always been one to look from both sides, not just blinded by one belief.

Also, how many believe the statement of a "timeless Universe"? Sounds interesting except for the fact that everything has a beginning and an ending except the Universe?
#81 Dec 12 2005 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Sounds interesting except for the fact that everything has a beginning and an ending except the Universe?



This is one of my personal "ultimate questions"; whether or not existance is a Cycle(Circle), or whether or not there actually is an ultimate End (Nirvana).

I suspect that some part of me knows...


The "Timeless" thing DOES make things confusing does it not.. for we are forced to think of things on a linear way.

But Google up the "EPR" paradox... this does show that on that smallest level... time and distance has no meaning.

Then question then becomes: How does that apply to our world and our consiousness? I believe THAT is the Key.
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#82 Dec 12 2005 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
cwilloughby wrote:
Nice Yossarian. That sounded very good. That is exactly what I meant.

Where did the first piece of material come from?

Also, I am not one to lean on Theology because it is based on so much faith. It makes for good reading though.

There has been to many assumptions made by one particular individual about myself. I am just looking from both sides, science and Theology to see if any answers are out there. I have always been one to look from both sides, not just blinded by one belief.

Also, how many believe the statement of a "timeless Universe"? Sounds interesting except for the fact that everything has a beginning and an ending except the Universe?




What happened before the Big Bang? Ill tell you what i know: Something lol. Something happened to cause it, i dont know what, i may never know. But the fact that something had to happen dismisses it as "the beginning" entirely. Perhaps it was the interaction of two dimensional membranes, perhaps it was something more complex, perhaps it was some guy in Utah. The point is that no matter what happened, the Big Bang was not the beginning of time, and thus one must always look at the universe as a timeless object of eternal transition. Just because we dont know what happened, doesnt mean Nothing Happened. The very problem with the theological approach is that it assumes that nothing was there, then god said boom and it was there. This idea ignores the fact that god was there and again brings forth the question of where did she come from. I find that theory to be lacking in every sense and am annoyed when people so easily dismiss the idea of a timeless transitional universe and whole heartedly accept the idea of a timeless superbeing.
#83 Dec 13 2005 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
Wow that was some good post there. I have yet to go and check those links out but I will after the holidays EP and Yoss.

One thing though, do you think the **** machine's to the physicist or to the gymnast is not reachable by all **** machines? There are physical as well as mental and emotional hurdles that not everyone can jump no matter how hard they train or study I think. So that short step in between the two could be like the Grand Canyon or the trip to Mars for some.

Scientist, like you guys, need great brain capacity and memory to retrieve data for comparison and research and definately passion for the subject matter.

Athletes need great muscle mass or density, depending, to achieve their goals and definately passion for the subjected sport.

Theologians need a great strenght in faith for the unknown and unproven and definately a passion for the uncomprehensible.

So I guess to be great in something, the one thing we all would share is a great passion for what we believe in, science, athletics or Theology. Thats what makes humanity so great. Passion.

Have a great day all.
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