The Victory PlanFollow

talk about disconnected from reality...

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The fact is that the overwhelming percentage of Iraqi's support the current Iraqi government plan and want it to succeed.
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uh, no, the fact is over 90 percent of the iraqi,s polled in the green zone want us out of iraq immeiatly, and want an islamic based government, this according to a cnn poll, back when they were allowed to poll, last year.

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Whether foreign or local, the insurgents are those who are opposed to that plan and want it to fail. And those insurgents are outnumbered something like 3 thousand to one.
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80 percent of the insurgents we kill have been iraqi. they dont give two spits about the politics right now, they just want the spawn of the great satan (us) dead or gone. and over 90 percent of the people who outnumber them want the same.

one more time, it is not about the politics, it is about US. and untill we go, there will be no political stability. EVER.

this is the reality of the situation. Bush it trying to paint a picture of "freedom haters" and "tyrants who want to take over", but it is not like that at all. it is about "american haters" and keeping tyrants (us again) from taking over thier ISLAMIC country and making another spawning ground for satan spawn (us). he wants to villify them as any good leader should do to his enemies. he doesnt want you to think they DO NOT WANT an american style government, which THEY DONT.

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I just find it amusing that here, on the brink of victory in Iraq,
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, OMG, gona leave this alone.

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How about we let the military finish what they started?
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you mean let the military finnish what BUSH started dont you? how about we sit back and let BUSH through away more american and innocent iraqi lives to achieve his political agenda at the cost of thousands of human lives?

how about we dont.

how about we impeach his ignorant butt, pull out of iraq, and work with the leage of arab nations, jordan, syeria, and iran toward helping iraq becaome the country the people in iraq WANT. you know, give them FREEDOM.

there is another way. a better way to bring peace in iraq. but it is not peace Bush is after.

just so you are clear, the path we are on is NOT the only path. it is just Bush,s path. and it leads to a dead end and alot of unnecesary wasted human lives.

there was a time when i really believed gbaji was just a party loyalist, and didnt really believe some of the stuff he wrote. but i have inlaws just as ignorant. and after a thanksgiving dinner with them, i have reassesed my openion. there are alot of ignorant people in this country. and 911 may very well be exactly what we deserved because of our collective ignorance.

like my brother in-law going off on how the freaking liberals would try and ban Charlie Brown specials because they prayed to god in the movie.

i didnt point out that he was getting "liberals" and "athiests" confused because im sure in his mind, there are republicans, and every one else is a freaking liberal, athiests, jews, gays, all of the rest of the world.

or my mother inlaw making dispariging comments every time the news showed Katrina victims and asking for donations to help them, or my father in-law suggesting fema pay his climbing electric bill instead of feeding homeless hurricane victims.

this really hit me as ironic as he was the cheif chemical engineer for a major oil company and it is a direct result of the price gouging of that company that is both making his stocks go up as well as his electric bill.

there are people in this country that would just as soon as you lay down and die than get in their way in any fashion, be it in traffic, or poitics. there are people that just can not see beyond themselves. cant see that we are all connected, adn every action we take affects the people around us and vise versa.

there are people in this country, many of them, just like gbaji.

we are our brothers keeper. and the greatest liberal to ever walk the face of this earth was Jesus Christ himself. how can you claim to follow His religion, and yet fight against every thing it stands for?

ignorance. we deserve exactly what we get.

Um... No. It's 82%. And the question asked (which is a horrible question btw) was:

Do you want Coalition forces to leave either immediately, or after an elected government has been established in Iraq.

I hope you can see how by including the "either" statement in there, the poll writers effectively nullified any useful information from the poll. We can't say from that how many actually want coalition forces out "now", versus "sometime down the line when things have stabilized".

A suspicious person might just suspect that the poll was written that was specifically knowing that morons like you would interpret it as the overwhelming number wanting us out right now.



Wow. You just pulled that out of your *** didn't you?

Yeah. Different poll. Actually, presumably multiple different polls. First off. The one you're quoting certainly does not show a number anywhere *near* 90% (unless you're arguing that 57% is close to 90%...).

The highest figures I've seen is 82%. The problem is that it's hard to see *where* those numbers are coming from, or what specifica methodology was used (ie: what questions were asked). I did find this page, which shows a history of polling numbers (not sure on the accuracy of course, but I wasn't the one initially claiming the 90% number either).

Relevant part:



So, presumably a Zogby poll (gee! I've never had problems with their methodology before though!). I find it unlikely to be coincidence that I've seen the exact same "82%" figure stated in numerous articles when doing some searching on this, so it's likely this is the source of that figure (which is the *highest* one I could find about Iraqi's wanting coalition forces to leave, so I'm trying to give shadow the benefit of the doubt).

Note the question asked. It's incredibly open ended. If that is indeed the poll upon which all of those articles quoting that "82% of Iraqi's want the US to withdraw immidiately", then you can see how this is a problem since that's *not* what the question was asking.

they want us gone.

we are the catalyst for the majority of the violance there. and while our kill ratio is staggering over there, much higher than even vietnam, one death is one death too many for a unjustified, illegal, immoral war.

yes, illegal. it doesnt matter weather this addministraition actually BELIEVED the bad intellegance or not, the bottom line is, there NEVER was any justification for this country to attack Iraq. it was a U.N. resolution, not a U.S. resolution, and thus, a U.N. decision.

they chose wisely.

we didnt.

and all those movies with good vs evil where you have the mad doctor saying "ve hav vays of making you talk..", well, now you know exactly how the majority of the ENTIRE WORLD, including our closest allies, view this country.

there has never been a more damaging political ***** up to this country in its entire history. this is the legacy of the MORAL MAJORITY.

it is time for a change. past time.

Eh? What response did I give to you Smash? I was responding to shadow who claimed that 90% of Iraqi's wanted the US to leave. I said it was closer to 92%, but that the question that derived that result was questionable.

You piped in with those other poll results. Which *also* don't confirm what Shadow was trying to say.

Not sure what your point is then Smash. So you agree that shadow's 90% figure is inaccurate, right? That's all I was saying.



My problem is that you (ok. the polls you're quoting) are treating a very broad subject with incredibly limited options. For example. The poll you showed only gave two choices: a) leave immediately (next few months), and b) stay longer.

Ok. How much longer is "staying longer"? A year? 2 years? Forever? How long is "a few months"? Is that the time until they *start* leaving? Or the time until they are completely gone? There's a hell of a lot of ambiquity in this apparently "straighforward" poll.

Why not provide three catagories instead? a) Coalition begin leaving right now, and complete their withdrawal as soon as physically possible regardless of other conditions, b) Coalition forces stay until the elected government can fully take over the job of securing the country, but must leave once that has occured, and c) Coalition forces remain even after that government has taken control to assist with ongoing security (ie: long term).

By giving only two options, it comes down to how any given Iraqi citizen views those options. If he's afraid that by taking option "b" (stay longer), he's essentially voting to allow the coalition forces to remain indefinately, then he's going to be a lot more likely to pick option a, doubly so if he feels that in a "few months" the elected Iraqi government will be able to take up the task of securing the nation. Maybe he's interpreting option "a" as "in a few months, after the Iraqi constitution has been ratified and Iraqi security forces take full control, we'll begin removing coalition forces and continue doing so over time from then on".

The problem is that the simplicity of the poll questions leave a lot of room for interpretation. It's an absolute either way, and that's always going to cause exagerrated results. By not including any middle option, they (obviously) remove the more moderate (and presumably more popular) "stay until they aren't needed anymore" option. Amazingly enough, that's the current criteria for withdrawal of US troops at this time. One has to wonder why the pool does not actually list those criteria and ask how many Iraqi's support it. Isn't that just a little bit strange?



No. There are ways to know. But, strangely, I've yet to see a single published poll that actually asked the Iraqi's what they thought of the actual conditions of coalition withdrawal in Iraq. If they'd ask that question, and surround it with reasonable alternatives (or perhaps even a range of alternatives), we'd get far more accurate results and a much better picture of what the average Iraqi actually wants. So there are ways to know. But the polls we've seen so far aren't even close to telling us.



Hah. And you repeat the "all or nothing" concept yourself. Isn't there a middle ground between "leaving immediately" and the open ended "stay"? Why not actually *state* that, instead of being deliberately vague? "Stay longer" doesn't say how long "longer" is. Iraqi's might want us to "stay longer", if "longer" is defined as only long enough to ensure that Iraqi police and military can keep the country in one piece. Many might not want us to "stay longer", if "longer" is defined as staying for years and years regardless of other developments. Until we recognize that there is a middle ground and that most people are going to attach conditions to things (or want to anyway), we're not going to get very accurate poll results.