Economy is GRRREATFollow

And again that is the fault of our society. When I pay $10 for my handcrafted widget it's not because I want to pay $3 to pay for his business degree classes $2 for his stockbroker training and $4 for his law exam. Just in case being a master craftsman doesn't pan out. That $10 should be his reward for becoming very good at making widgets, he should be focusing on becoming a better widget maker, so that the widget I buy 5 years from now is a little better than the one I just bought, because he loves making widgets, that's his role in life. He shouldn't have to worry that I'm going to start buying my widgets from China because they only cost $5 as the company can work an entire family for 150 hours a week and just beat and rape their children if they complain about it.



Of course labor unions have some unreasonable demands. But that doesn't mean we can just throw out the entire industry. The government has a responsibility to level the playing field. It is not right to allow industry to take advantage of foriegn labor forces simply because they do not know any better. If companies want to outsource that is fine, but they had better be doing it to countries that enforce human rights and fair labor laws or we are simply proping our nation up with slavery all over again.



People that live in $500,000 houses are not the very wealthy, they most likely barely break the 6 figure mark. They are barely upper middle class. How many $5,000,000 houses have you insured this month?

I'm actually honestly interested, how do they insure then? Get an accounting firm to do it all for them?

I know in a lot of states you can post a bond (250K+) as insurance. Unless they own an insurance company I can think of no other way to selfinsure at least for cars.

Our Christmas will be fine without your suggestion, I am just happy he is home this year. And as far as scraping pennies? We have done that, it just happens to all be going to a random move that fell into our lap.

And some people are broke because they are in the middle of moving forward and making their life better, which would be my current situation. I am broke as hell because I am determined to concentrate on school to maintain my 4.0 and get into a damn good law school. Then maybe I can look back on the christmas I had to get credit cards to pay for some boxes and I can laugh.



I think there are exceptions to everything. People who dislike the welfare system point to people who just freeload off of the government, but some families really need it, use it for a relatively short time, and better their lives. Take my husband's family as an example. His mother was 17, had twins, and was alone. Yeah, they were on welfare and she was working 12 hour shifts in a factory. Now she is a nurse, one son is in an iron workers union doing pretty well, and the other has spent 9 years in the army and is about to get out and go for his bachelor's degree. What do you do with people in that situation, let them starve? They used welfare to eat, and then eventually got off of it. You can't take welfare away from those families just because a few abuse the system.

Da facts'



And:



That "myth" of that lazy mother sitting at home popping out kids to get more welfare money and not working is just that, a myth

That's fine, then they should get mediocre salaries. Some people will always be mediocre. They are perfectly content living just above those not willing to go to work 40 hours a week.

The problem in manufacturing right now is not that people are not making top dollar, People are not clammoring for more disposable income. it's that the jobs are simply gone, and the jobs that remain do not pay enough to afford food, housing, and healthcare.

A large reason that is is because corporations are allowed to exploit foriegn workers. Do Chinese factory workers make $6.00 an hour? Do they get healthcare for their families? Are they guarenteed overtime after 40 hours a week? Do they even have basic on the job safety measures? Do they even have the standards of living we afford to our dogs? Because, I can think of a couple hundred families of mine workers that would love to disagree with you on that this week.

Maybe someday the global economy will level out and everyone will enjoy a nice standard of living but right now they are essentially slaves. They live in squallor so that American corporations can post double digit profit gains every year and yet mourn the tight times forcing them to lay off American workers.

This is America and we ought to be looking out for our own. We should not be profiting on what is essentially off shore slavery.

Not yet, but then, neither did our workers 50 years ago.

Then launch a campaign to reform officer pay, don't take it out of my pocket.

No, it's America, our own should look out for themselves by using the system we have in place to do so. You know, the one where we don't tell you where to work or how much to ask for to do the job, or where to live or how much to pay to live there.

Should this magnificent standard ever come to be, the rich will be so far beyond it that you will feel as slaves in comparison, and will remain discontented.

Thats fine and all but we also should not turn a blind eye to American corporations exploiting foriegn labor. Not because they are foriegners but because they are human beings and we should be doing what we can to ensure they have basic human rights. Corporations should not be allowed to circumvent basic labor laws by offshoring. Those laws exist for a reason.



We have a long way to go before this even enters into the argument. When the chinese that work in American owned factories have enough to eat, work fair hours, safe workplaces, and access to basic healthcare then we can talk about equality. Corporations are required to provide those basics here, why should the standard be different anywhere else?

Um... How old are you right now? How long have you been in the union? Do you think it'll be the same in 20 years?

Here's the problem. Your union maintains a contract with the various businesses that hire it's labor. That contract requires that those businesses pay you based on that contract and your seniority, right? It seems all roses *today* because you pay very little and get a lot. However, that's because you're still at the low end of that payscale. What happens in 20 years when your guaranteed raises defined by the contracts your union enforces pushes your salary higher then what businesses are willing to pay?

What happens (alot) is that the business you are currently in goes belly up. Thousands of their union workers are laid off. They look for new jobs, thinking that their union status will get them seniority and a quick replacement. But what happens is that they find they can't get a job in the same industry, not because businesses aren't interested in their skills, but because those businesses *can't* hire that worker because his 20-30 years in the union requires them to pay him a wage that isn't worth the work he does. It's cheaper for them to hire 2 or 3 new guys under the union system then one old guy. They'd like to hire that older worker, but maybe for 2/3rds what he was getting. And he might be fine taking that salary, but the union wont allow it because it would weaken them.


I'm serious here. Those guys who work the same job for 20 years and then are screwed when they're laid off aren't quite as thrilled with the union system as you are. But they suck in more young guys like you every day with the allure of lots of benefits and ease of success, so they don't matter.


I'm also curious. You said your dad pays 700 bucks a month on health insurance. Then you say that's more then you pay in rent, and you live in an expensive place (Boston)? You're kidding right? Please tell me you don't think a $700/month rent is expensive. Rents where I live are easily double that.


One more thing. I love how whenever someone mentions that the economy is doing well, we suddenly have a pile of people pop up with tales of woe. Um. None of those issues are new or specific to *right now*. Workers have been losing their jobs after 20 years before, and they'll probably continue to do that. That says nothing about how well our economy is doing. There has always been rich and poor. That's nothing to do with todays economy either. Why drag these very broad issues (which in most cases aren't even problems) in response to a specific statement about the relative quality of the economy right now?


The economy is doing great. Unemployment is low. GDP growth is up. There are jobs for people to work. Salaries are rising. People can afford to buy stuff. I'm not seeing the problem here...

At least the crazy children have someone to watch over them.

In the North and Midwest housing sales in Oct 2005 were less than Oct 2005. In the west they were slightly higher and (surprise) only in the South they had increased significantly. Overall if discounting houses on the market but but not yet sold, home sales are pretty static. Many forecasters are speaking of declining sales.

Oh Yay! Oil prices broke below the $60/barrell mark this week!! Less than a year ago we were horrified when they reached $50/barrell.

And of course there's this little federal budget deficit totalling about $350 billion dollars.

But hey, I'm happy you're doing well Mean Achillez Person.

You sound as though your success is somehow reduced by those less fortunate? You complain about taxes but are you lacking? Do you not have enough money to live comfortably and even afford a few luxaries?

Yes, there are those that abuse the system. So we should stop taking care of people? It's not a perfect world eh, it's a small price to pay to TRY and insure that the people of our country are afforded an opportunity to survive.

I know you are not for real Achillez. I know you are only a sock that makes these kinds of posts to rile people up. People just don't really come as contemptible and egotistical as this.

No, I've been here over 5 years. One person in my department has seniority and she's paid the same as I. New hires start at a lower amount, but at 6 months they get a pay raise, at a year they make the same as I.



Hehe, this is where it gets good. My union last year became, essentially, 1 union with ALL Hotel and Restaurant Unions across the country. So guess what happens at our next bargaining agreament? If we don't come to terms (and trust me, hotels are making HUGE profits. Like, better than pre 9/11 profits) my local doesn't just go on strike. ALL LOCALS GO ON STRIKE. This is how you deal with uppity corporations.

Imagine, if you will, that McDonald's workers were unionized. They aren't closing all McDonald's and shipping those jobs over seas. Same things with the Hilton, Marriot, and Radisson Brands.

On a side note, we were a part of the AFL-CIO, but our leadership disagread with putting more money into political campaigns than it's workers, so we left them.

We are the largest union in the country at the moment.




Technicly it is exactly double that. My share is 650, my roomates is 650, and parking is another 100 a month. It's a 2 bedroom, living room, kitchen (about the size of my closet), and one small bathroom.



The economy is doing better than it was. I'll agrea with you there. Not "internet-boom" better. But perhaps pre 9/11 better.