I am not arguing, I am just being clear on the fact that you believe that women should be brutally stoned to death if they can not prove they are a virgin when they marry.
You misogynistic little cu[b][/b]nt.
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What are the real issues of the U.S?Follow
Quote:
Kinda hard to agrue against perfection ( GOD ).
No,
I am not arguing the perfection of GOD.
Please.. riddle me this...
Is it not a commonly held beief amongst Christians that ANYTHING that MAN does is inherently FLAWED?
Well, WHO wrote the Bible?
Sure sure, I know the agrument the the Bible was written by MAN GUIDED by the HAND of God... YET NONETHELESS MAN's taint MUST be on the Bible as WELL...
To say otherwise contradicts the whole POINT of the Bible.. which is to point out that MAn is LOST without the guidance of GOD.
GOD is perfect.
The Bible and Religion are constructs of MAN, and thus inherently flawed.
How can you confide in the notion of Original Sin and yet profess the Bible to be "Perfect"?
and if you say that the Bible is perfect because of the author's hand being "guided by God", then how can YOU pick and choose waht ELSE may or may not be under Divine Guidance?
vanelr wrote:
women were married off very early compared to todays standards. Usually around the age of 16. Even in todays society, girls that lose their virginity before this age are not thought highly of either. You sound like you just want to agrue. IF this is the case, you have picked the wrong issue. Kinda hard to agrue against perfection ( GOD ).
Where, in the name of Christ, do you live? In a friggin monastery?
That age has been pretty much the norm for sexual relations to begin ever since the advent of the back seat and teenagers being allowed to drive.
If anyone is telling you different, they're either a prude or a liar.
Now, if you wear a white shirt, black tie, and ride a bicycle around town, I might begin to understand your confusion. I understand that there are good number of people who can't see past their church doors.
Quote:
Even in todays society, girls that lose their virginity before this age are not thought highly of either.
lol. I hope you never have a daughter.
Edited, Mon Nov 21 13:03:51 2005 by PhlareWP
I grew up in the ghetto and I have 5 children 1 son and 4 daugthers. You cant be saying that as a parent i dont have the right to expect my daugthers to reach the age of 16 with virginity intact. Please where do you live?
To Kel: Yes Christian believe the bible to be God inspired and without flaw.
Freedom is a matter of perception, dont you think? You believe your have more freedom now than slaves did? In some cases this maybe true. Look at the facts. How many people that grow up in poverty ever rise above their class? This is true of every class. So think about it, what are you free to do? Can you take a fews years off work and travel maybe expand your horizons? Your freedoms here are governed by the dollar. You are only free to do what you want if you can pay for it. In the days of old slave could buy their freedom too. You live in a society where the government get back .96 cents of every dollar. ure you chose what kind of work you wanna do if you can afford the education. But the gov. doesnt really care where you work they will still get their 96%. You can chose who you want to marry but with the divorce rate over 70% there a good chance that wont work either. The gov has given you laws to govern your behavior. So tell me what are you really free to do? Sure there are a few example of people who have gotten wealthy but thats not really a realistic expectation in this country is it? Im not knocking our system of government, its not perfect but its better than most. Im not however convinced that this society is better than the one portrayed in the old testament. Im referring to Moses and the people who followed them out of Egpyt and their journey when God walked with them. Not to be confused with the times after that. If you have read the old testament than you probably dont know what im talking about.
Last point: 85% of the people in this country claim the title of Christian, 15% does not. Do you really truly believe that 85% of this country is wrong and that you are right? If you were playing who wants to be a millionaire and had to ask the audience for their answer and 85% said A while the 15% were scatered between B,C and D. Would you not chose A?
Freedom is a matter of perception, dont you think? You believe your have more freedom now than slaves did? In some cases this maybe true. Look at the facts. How many people that grow up in poverty ever rise above their class? This is true of every class. So think about it, what are you free to do? Can you take a fews years off work and travel maybe expand your horizons? Your freedoms here are governed by the dollar. You are only free to do what you want if you can pay for it. In the days of old slave could buy their freedom too. You live in a society where the government get back .96 cents of every dollar. ure you chose what kind of work you wanna do if you can afford the education. But the gov. doesnt really care where you work they will still get their 96%. You can chose who you want to marry but with the divorce rate over 70% there a good chance that wont work either. The gov has given you laws to govern your behavior. So tell me what are you really free to do? Sure there are a few example of people who have gotten wealthy but thats not really a realistic expectation in this country is it? Im not knocking our system of government, its not perfect but its better than most. Im not however convinced that this society is better than the one portrayed in the old testament. Im referring to Moses and the people who followed them out of Egpyt and their journey when God walked with them. Not to be confused with the times after that. If you have read the old testament than you probably dont know what im talking about.
Last point: 85% of the people in this country claim the title of Christian, 15% does not. Do you really truly believe that 85% of this country is wrong and that you are right? If you were playing who wants to be a millionaire and had to ask the audience for their answer and 85% said A while the 15% were scatered between B,C and D. Would you not chose A?
To Patrician: God loves you too.
Haleluja. Praise be to Jesus.
Stoner
Stoner
vanelr wrote:
Last point: 85% of the people in this country claim the title of Christian, 15% does not. Do you really truly believe that 85% of this country is wrong and that you are right? If you were playing who wants to be a millionaire and had to ask the audience for their answer and 85% said A while the 15% were scatered between B,C and D. Would you not chose A?
Are we counting all Christians as one? There's a lot more Catholics than any singular Protestant denomination -- did you make sure you're Catholic?
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Who knew God's very existance was so democratic?
Why do bible-thumping Christians hate paragraphs?
Have you ever tried to remember hitting <enter> when you are compelled by the Holy Spirit to respond in a whirl of holy wrath? I thought not.
I dont live in a muslim country but if I were a muslim I would certainly move.
Note: the muslim religion holds Jesus Christ to be a sacred phrophet, they just dont believe him to be the son of God. It is also my belief that the muslim are praying to the same God, yet calling him by a different name.
I have noticed that many of the non believers that I speak with have no real conviction for their beliefs or lack of them. All I ever heard is snide remarks like: bible thumping Christians or holy than thou, or a score of other smart *** remarks. People usually resort to name calling when they cant think of anything else to say. Most of you non believers fall into pitfull but easily recognizable catergories. I know some Christians who I cant stand. I used to believe but now I dont. Only week minded sheepish people believe in God. I dont wanna know a God who lets all these bad things happen. What you are all really saying is this: I cant believe in God because to do so would mean that I would have accept my sins and try to live a better life. Thats too hard and thats too much work, so ill just chose not to believe. I have yet to hear an ITELLIGENT discourse against God. Because we all know that when its dark and there no one around. When your as low as you can get, when the pain overwhelms you, you will reach out to God. This time comes for all of us and you can boast between now and than of how brave you will be. When you finally do concede and cry out for God, it will be my wish that he has mercy on your soul. What than will be your legacy.
Now im sure that there are some true atheist out there, for them I say, please post an intelligent agrument that offers some honest insite.
Note: the muslim religion holds Jesus Christ to be a sacred phrophet, they just dont believe him to be the son of God. It is also my belief that the muslim are praying to the same God, yet calling him by a different name.
I have noticed that many of the non believers that I speak with have no real conviction for their beliefs or lack of them. All I ever heard is snide remarks like: bible thumping Christians or holy than thou, or a score of other smart *** remarks. People usually resort to name calling when they cant think of anything else to say. Most of you non believers fall into pitfull but easily recognizable catergories. I know some Christians who I cant stand. I used to believe but now I dont. Only week minded sheepish people believe in God. I dont wanna know a God who lets all these bad things happen. What you are all really saying is this: I cant believe in God because to do so would mean that I would have accept my sins and try to live a better life. Thats too hard and thats too much work, so ill just chose not to believe. I have yet to hear an ITELLIGENT discourse against God. Because we all know that when its dark and there no one around. When your as low as you can get, when the pain overwhelms you, you will reach out to God. This time comes for all of us and you can boast between now and than of how brave you will be. When you finally do concede and cry out for God, it will be my wish that he has mercy on your soul. What than will be your legacy.
Now im sure that there are some true atheist out there, for them I say, please post an intelligent agrument that offers some honest insite.
vanelr wrote:
I dont live in a muslim country but if I were a muslim I would certainly move.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
You cant use worldwide numbers because in those other countries the majority does not rule. No one is our country is being forced to be a Christian.
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, Jophiel!
vanelr wrote:
Because we all know that when its dark and there no one around. When your as low as you can get, when the pain overwhelms you, you will reach out to God. This time comes for all of us and you can boast between now and than of how brave you will be. When you finally do concede and cry out for God, it will be my wish that he has mercy on your soul. What than will be your legacy.
Now im sure that there are some true atheist out there, for them I say, please post an intelligent agrument that offers some honest insite.
Now im sure that there are some true atheist out there, for them I say, please post an intelligent agrument that offers some honest insite.
So when things are the darkest and I reach up and play to the Goddess to deliever me from the pain of depression and illness, do you feel I'm wasting my time? How about meditating on the wonders she has given us in the world around us and therefore finding peace and calm in the middle of a stressfull time in my life.
I've travel down many a rough path through life and see many a day that would test the most faithful of men and found my Goddress do more for me then your God ever did. And Yes I did try Him for awhile growing up, But he kept telling me I was full of sin cause I draw nudes that rejoice in the beauty of the Human Body and try to make me depress again and again.
Sorry I take my Loving Mothering Goddess over your Rathful Father God any day.
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
ElneClare wrote:
vanelr wrote:
Because we all know that when its dark and there no one around. When your as low as you can get, when the pain overwhelms you, you will reach out to God. This time comes for all of us and you can boast between now and than of how brave you will be. When you finally do concede and cry out for God, it will be my wish that he has mercy on your soul. What than will be your legacy.
Now im sure that there are some true atheist out there, for them I say, please post an intelligent agrument that offers some honest insite.
Now im sure that there are some true atheist out there, for them I say, please post an intelligent agrument that offers some honest insite.
So when things are the darkest and I reach up and play to the Goddess to deliever me from the pain of depression and illness, do you feel I'm wasting my time? How about meditating on the wonders she has given us in the world around us and therefore finding peace and calm in the middle of a stressfull time in my life.
I've travel down many a rough path through life and see many a day that would test the most faithful of men and found my Goddress do more for me then your God ever did. And Yes I did try Him for awhile growing up, But he kept telling me I was full of sin cause I draw nudes that rejoice in the beauty of the Human Body and try to make me depress again and again.
Sorry I take my Loving Mothering Goddess over your Rathful Father God any day.
That's all fine Elne.
And you can pray all you want while your teeth are knashing and your flesh is being roasted in the depths of the Lake of Fire!!!!!
LOL Kelv I knew I could count on someone to get that I'm being sarcastic.
At least I'll never be cold again, while praying in the depth of Hell. (i.e. Winter is back and once again Jonwin's house is cold until we can get someone to check the furance. Most likely cause he didn't drain it once a month over the summer, so a pipe is cogged again.)
At least I'll never be cold again, while praying in the depth of Hell. (i.e. Winter is back and once again Jonwin's house is cold until we can get someone to check the furance. Most likely cause he didn't drain it once a month over the summer, so a pipe is cogged again.)
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
I have a little plastic oscilatting heater.. in about an hour of it being on, I'm sweating up in here, and the thing's not even a foot tall ^^
That gets into how big is the room, size of windows and how well insulated the place is.
I'm talking about an 86 year old rowhouse, in need of repointing and new windows, that has steam heat and large rooms and drafts. I can either have room for all my books or warmth. Gas prices this winter should have us in poorhouse this spring. BG&E will own our souls, so Satan is out of luck there.
How I'm going to have to google Steam Heat for words to the song.
I'm talking about an 86 year old rowhouse, in need of repointing and new windows, that has steam heat and large rooms and drafts. I can either have room for all my books or warmth. Gas prices this winter should have us in poorhouse this spring. BG&E will own our souls, so Satan is out of luck there.
How I'm going to have to google Steam Heat for words to the song.
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
ElneClare wrote:
That gets into how big is the room, size of windows and how well insulated the place is.
I'm talking about an 86 year old rowhouse, in need of repointing and new windows, that has steam heat and large rooms and drafts. I can either have room for all my books or warmth. Gas prices this winter should have us in poorhouse this spring. BG&E will own our souls, so Satan is out of luck there.
How I'm going to have to google Steam Heat for words to the song.
I'm talking about an 86 year old rowhouse, in need of repointing and new windows, that has steam heat and large rooms and drafts. I can either have room for all my books or warmth. Gas prices this winter should have us in poorhouse this spring. BG&E will own our souls, so Satan is out of luck there.
How I'm going to have to google Steam Heat for words to the song.
Blitzkrieg Bop?
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Yeahh....
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
But i need your love to keep away the cold.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
But i can't get warm without your hand to hold.
The radiators hissin still I need your kissin to keep me from freezing each nite.
I've got a hot water bottle, but nothing i've got'll take the place of you holdin me tight.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
But i need your love to keep away the cold.
They told me to throw some more coal in the boiler.
They told me to throw some more coal in the boiler.
They told me to throw some more coal in the boiler.
But that don't do no good.
They told me to pour some more oil in the burner.
They told me to pour some more oil in the burner.
They told me to pour some more oil in the burner.
But that don't do no good.
Coal in the boiler. No good. Oil in the burner. No good. Cold? NO! Hot?
YES! sssssss yes yes yes come on union get hot!!
BOINK BOINK!! BOINK BOINK!! BOINK BOINK!!
I need your love to keep away the cold. I need you looove to keep awayyyy the colddd....fsss YEA!!
Thanks to google and The Pajama Game for my winter theme song
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
But i need your love to keep away the cold.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
But i can't get warm without your hand to hold.
The radiators hissin still I need your kissin to keep me from freezing each nite.
I've got a hot water bottle, but nothing i've got'll take the place of you holdin me tight.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
I've got ::cling cling:: fsssss steam heat.
But i need your love to keep away the cold.
They told me to throw some more coal in the boiler.
They told me to throw some more coal in the boiler.
They told me to throw some more coal in the boiler.
But that don't do no good.
They told me to pour some more oil in the burner.
They told me to pour some more oil in the burner.
They told me to pour some more oil in the burner.
But that don't do no good.
Coal in the boiler. No good. Oil in the burner. No good. Cold? NO! Hot?
YES! sssssss yes yes yes come on union get hot!!
BOINK BOINK!! BOINK BOINK!! BOINK BOINK!!
I need your love to keep away the cold. I need you looove to keep awayyyy the colddd....fsss YEA!!
Thanks to google and The Pajama Game for my winter theme song
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
vanelr, you obviously have strongly held beliefs which I'm not going to change, however you put forward common misconceptions about science which I will address below. You also continue to offer frankly bizzare suggestions about the founding of our nation and civil rights.
Reserach suggests is as good as scientific evidence gets in the social sciences - if you wish to ignore this is fine - I'm not a social scientist I don't take it personally - but since you are throwing out the entire fields, we can't really have a rational discussion about them anymore. As you point out below, science cannot prove anything, affirmatively.
The best scientific evidence, as summarized by the APS, says homosexuality is a choice. This is not one study, it is the result of the review of many by many people. That is why it is a far stronger statement then any one individual.
I can give you specific citations such as: Richard Green, Sexual Identity of 37 Children Raised by Homosexual or Transsexual
Parents, 135 Am. J. Psychiatry 692 (1978)10.
You go read a whole bunch of these studies and come to a conclusion. This conclusion is not a scientific "fact". It is just the summary of the evidence.
Not accepting scientific evidence as evidence is a fascinating vision of the world I never considered before.
I didn't bring up science. You said there was *no* scientific evidence for homosexuality begin genetic. That was the beginning. That is simply factually wrong. There is plenty. Of course some is on the opposite side - that is science. However, the bulk of evidence is on one side. You claim to simply not acknowledge it as evidence at all. That is your perogative, but you are redefining the word evidence in an unusual way.
The strength of science is that all theories have concrete testible and falsifiable predictions. If not, it ain't science. You can look it up: that is pretty much the definition.
Since the Bible cannot be proven "wrong" in the same sense, it is unscientific. This isn't a bad thing. As you point out they are very different.
Ill go one step further and say that any church who ordains gay as priest or offer to marry gays is not a christian church. They (imo) have broken one of the ten commandments
Which commandment?
If I may take off my scientist hat and put on my theologian hat:
(1) I say if Jesus showed up today he would hang out with the oppressed of our society - just as in his day he hung out with the lepers.
(2) I say if Jesus showed up today he would chastise us for following the word and not the spirit and he would empahsize the new covenant not the old.
As a result of (1) and (2) above, I find it far more likely that chruches accepting homosexuality would be praised by Jesus then condemned.
I would suggest Singapore because, um, our country was founded on the opposite. Go read the Federalist papers. The founders were very concerned with the abuse of power of the majority.
The very greatness of our country is the rights to free speach, press, religion - and these are guarenteed for us all. Even if we want to vote them out we cannot.
Jesus was in the minority when he lived. If everyone at that time went with the majority pagan gods because they were more popular, your religion would never have gotten off the ground.
vanelr wrote:
To yossarian:
Again you state that im factually wrong and back this up with two paragraphs that offer no facts. Am I missing something? Even your post uses words like ( research suggests) or ( this is simply how they show their love or sexuality). This would not meet my definition of evidence.
Again you state that im factually wrong and back this up with two paragraphs that offer no facts. Am I missing something? Even your post uses words like ( research suggests) or ( this is simply how they show their love or sexuality). This would not meet my definition of evidence.
Reserach suggests is as good as scientific evidence gets in the social sciences - if you wish to ignore this is fine - I'm not a social scientist I don't take it personally - but since you are throwing out the entire fields, we can't really have a rational discussion about them anymore. As you point out below, science cannot prove anything, affirmatively.
The best scientific evidence, as summarized by the APS, says homosexuality is a choice. This is not one study, it is the result of the review of many by many people. That is why it is a far stronger statement then any one individual.
I can give you specific citations such as: Richard Green, Sexual Identity of 37 Children Raised by Homosexual or Transsexual
Parents, 135 Am. J. Psychiatry 692 (1978)10.
You go read a whole bunch of these studies and come to a conclusion. This conclusion is not a scientific "fact". It is just the summary of the evidence.
Not accepting scientific evidence as evidence is a fascinating vision of the world I never considered before.
Quote:
Since your bought science up though, I would like to point out that science has proven itself wrong many times. As more and more data is collected the facts of science will be ever changing. To date though the bible has never been proven wrong or even inaccurate. History would show the bible to be more of a science than science is a science, lol. Im sure you get my point.
I didn't bring up science. You said there was *no* scientific evidence for homosexuality begin genetic. That was the beginning. That is simply factually wrong. There is plenty. Of course some is on the opposite side - that is science. However, the bulk of evidence is on one side. You claim to simply not acknowledge it as evidence at all. That is your perogative, but you are redefining the word evidence in an unusual way.
The strength of science is that all theories have concrete testible and falsifiable predictions. If not, it ain't science. You can look it up: that is pretty much the definition.
Since the Bible cannot be proven "wrong" in the same sense, it is unscientific. This isn't a bad thing. As you point out they are very different.
Quote:
Ill go one step further and say that any church who ordains gay as priest or offer to marry gays is not a christian church. They (imo) have broken one of the ten commandments
Which commandment?
If I may take off my scientist hat and put on my theologian hat:
(1) I say if Jesus showed up today he would hang out with the oppressed of our society - just as in his day he hung out with the lepers.
(2) I say if Jesus showed up today he would chastise us for following the word and not the spirit and he would empahsize the new covenant not the old.
As a result of (1) and (2) above, I find it far more likely that chruches accepting homosexuality would be praised by Jesus then condemned.
Quote:
I believe in minority rights but draw the line when that conflicts with the will of the majority.
I would suggest Singapore because, um, our country was founded on the opposite. Go read the Federalist papers. The founders were very concerned with the abuse of power of the majority.
The very greatness of our country is the rights to free speach, press, religion - and these are guarenteed for us all. Even if we want to vote them out we cannot.
Jesus was in the minority when he lived. If everyone at that time went with the majority pagan gods because they were more popular, your religion would never have gotten off the ground.
Saying the bible hasn't been proven wrong is like saying humpty dumpty hasn't been proven wrong. It's amazing how grandiose, unreal, and completely irrational accounts of reality can be accepted as fact without one iota of evidence. That's the bible.
If you are trying to say that because the bible has some historical realities in it, that makes everything in the bible accurate, well, that is ignorant. Any fictional book on the planet can refer to real historical facts and places within the context of its fiction. It doesn't make the fictional parts any less fictional.
I really believe in to each their own. But, when I have religious nutjobs trying to shove their beliefs down my throat by legislating said beliefs by using my government, that is founded upon a belief that church should be separate from state, I get really pissy. Your beliefs are great for you. So, why can't you keep them to you and your kind? That's my only question.
If you are trying to say that because the bible has some historical realities in it, that makes everything in the bible accurate, well, that is ignorant. Any fictional book on the planet can refer to real historical facts and places within the context of its fiction. It doesn't make the fictional parts any less fictional.
I really believe in to each their own. But, when I have religious nutjobs trying to shove their beliefs down my throat by legislating said beliefs by using my government, that is founded upon a belief that church should be separate from state, I get really pissy. Your beliefs are great for you. So, why can't you keep them to you and your kind? That's my only question.
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