What are the real issues of the U.S?Follow

That was my question too.
How can you compromise when your system is set up as A vs B?
If no solution can emerge from the system itself what does that leave?
Revolution?
Invasion?
Mutually exhaustive fantastically expoitative sexual destruction?
Moisture?

Where does the solution come from it the system cannot bear it? You are probably the brightest person I have seen post on this board Moe, and I am honestly curious what you would see as a solution? Is there one? I know you say compromise will win the day, but if we are realisitic, is it a possibility?
I normally don't care about **** like this much, but I have spent 5 of the last seven years deployed, and that ratio is beginning to wear on me. I don't know if it's the current administration alone that is the problem, or if it lies with our own personal attitudes of profound disinterest as Americans. I'm starting to hate it though. A lot.
Need to sleep. Lots going on here.
Seriously though. Is there a real answer?

-Nagefen
-Nagafen

To Ambrya:

The ascendency of the religious far right:

As a christian, I feel the need to offer a rebuttal. First off 85% of americans claim to be christian. Christianity has always played a large part in our culture and our government. The separation of church and state that was set up by our founding fore-fathers has been completely twisted around. They sought to be able to practice their religion without persecution from the government. They were all God fearing man. Today a 15% minority has been somewhat sucessful in removing the pledge of aligance from our classrooms, prohibiting our children from praying in school, cant even say grace over lunch. I now hear they are trying to remove in God we trust off our money. Some of our major stores are now saying happy holidays as opposed to Merry Xmas. You are not witnessing the ascendency of the religious far right. You are seeing the 85% majority of american say enough is enough. We are simply saying that we are not gonna listen to 15% of the population tell the 85% of the population that they are right and we are wrong. You are very accurate though, when you say that the moderates have gotten into the fray. Every church in america is preaching to its congregation, telling them that christianity is under attack in this country.
You have pushed too hard for too long and have suceeded in waking a sleeping giant. I believe that you will now see chriatianity return to our society on a scale larger than before. Besides you are hughly mistaken in you views of what christians stand for or dont stand for. You used two examples in your post gay marriages and abortions.

Gay marriages: As a christian I not against gay marriages that are sanctioned by the state. The churches however can never perform a wedding ceremony for a gay couple. The bible state that God himself said that man shall not lay with man as man lays with woman. As God has declare this a sin, we can hardly uphold gays relationship as being rigtheous, nor can any church who claims to be doing the will of God, perform a wedding ceremony. That said, Christians dont hate gays or anyone else. They welcome at my table and in our churches, We loved them as God loves us. We are all sinners and thus they are no worse or better than us. According to our beliefs all sins are forgiven for the asking, but only with a repentive heart. Meaning, you are admitting that you have indeed commit a sin and are sorry, and will try harder not to commit again. This obviously isnt the case with gay marriages. I think it important to note the absence of any medical or scientific evidence of a gay gene. Meaning, homosexuality is a choice not a birth defect. Adultery is a choice as well as lust. Doesnt really matter what I think or feel about this issue. God has already spoken on it and as a christian, we believe his will be done.

Abortion: Any christian will tell you they are against killing. Problem with abortion is I dont know when life begins, so hard to convince me that abortion is killing. Besides as God has given us free will, I have no problem letting woman have free will and decide for themselves. Let them answer to God for their life choices as I will answer to God for my own choices. My bible tell says thou shall not judge. There you have met a christian who is pro choice. Sure you can point to some crazys who blow up abortion clinics, but with 85% of the population being christians, its a reasonable assumption that 85% of the crazys will be christians as well. That doesnt make christians crazy. Thats the real problem with this 15% minority, they twist this stuff around to give validality to their agrument.

In closing I dont believe that christanity or its far ascendency is a problem in this country, rather this 15% minority and its attack on Christanity is a problem. Just a small problem though with no real hope of any sustained victories.

Yep, and for several promament founders, that religion was deism, not Christianity.



(broken up to consider individually)



The original pledge has nothing to do with religion and there have always been religious reasons to not say the pledge. The words "under God" were added during the red scare.



Of course you can pray in school and say grace over your lunch - but the school can't sponsor it like it can sponsor a sports team.



The "God" on the money has nothing to do with the Christian God, and if it did, the founders would not have allowed it. I don't see why you want the government to stamp the word "God" on our currency and yet claim you actually support our founders in wanting a separation of church and state. Didn't Jesus toss the moneychangers out of the temple? Why the heck should you want the US federal government advocating "God" as a concept?



Some may be owned by non-Christians? Or perhaps they want to appeal to non-Christians. Why shouldn't they put whatever the heck they wanted up there? I must have forgotten about that horseman of the Apocolapse.



But you just said the forces of Darkness have won on several counts.

You must understand that when you make statements like:



and



...there is good reason to get ready to have minority rights trampeled - as they have been trampeled throughout history.

If I said: "every University in the nation is making all freshmen take a class about the scientific basis of sexuality being genetic" wouldn't that be a problem for this country? I think it would.

Not that the odds of convincing anyone at this stage are significant, but there is solid scientific evidence for the genetic origin of homosexuality. And this makes perfect sense! I tihnk I speak for us all when I say my interest in sexual partners is not purely a choice. There were strong urges in one direction. Certainly any practice of sexual relations is a choice - so words are confusing the issue - but we all make that choice, and it is strongly informed by something.

Who knows, maybe Jesus is up there waiving his magic fairy wand over random people :)

Actually, there is recent scientific evidence that there are no truly bisexual people. Everyone has a preference.

Not defending the statements made by Religious boy, but figured I'd point out something in his defense.

A church is a private meeting/organization. They are "free" to say whatever they want, believe whatever they want, and pass those beliefs on to whomever they want. It would be a violation of our first amendment rights to argue that they couldn't.

Your analogy to "every university freshman" being taught the opposite is flawed on several levels. If those universities are teaching accredited courses, then their coursework must meet the accredidation criteria. If they are publically funded, then they must meet a whole nother set of criteria.

However, to be perfectly honest, any single university could choose to teach a required course to all incomming freshmen stating that homosexuality was genetic, and this would not be illegal at all. That course might not qualify for accredidation with other universities. But if they are able to get people to pay for tuition to the school, what they teach is up to them.


The problem isn't with "any", it's with your notion of "all". That implies some government mandate that requires that teaching in all schools. That *would* be a problem, in a way that a church teaching is not, and a single university choosing to teach is not.

That's the real issue here. A private institution is free to say or teach whatever it wants. We're only getting into dangerous freedom of speech grounds when folks come along and try to mandate what should be taught via government fiat. That's the danger...

Your statement that there is *no* evidence for gay genetics is simply factually wrong. There is some evidence on both sides, the vast preponderance on my side, but there is a bit on your side - don't cheat yourself :) But probably several times per year it makes the news.

The fact you claim never to have heard of it limits my hope for rational discussion.

It will be a waste of my time, but if you like. It's common knowledge. By the way, I personally know friends who really tired the hetero life and couldn't do it. Proves nothing. This is the internet, we have no such credibility.

The American Psychological Association released a Statement on Homosexuality in 1994-JUL. Their first two paragraphs are:



As far as psychological science goes, its not that there is some evidence that homosexuality is not a choice, it is a preponderance of evidence. It is science, which means they could all be wrong, it's just a theory, it is just that this is a very high level of certainty for a field like psychology.

It's in a similar state to the greenhouse effect: there used to be some controversy, but now even the harshest scientific critics acknowledge there is a greenhouse effect, humans do contribute to it in known ways, it is just a question of whether this is the dominant reason the temperatures are rising, or a minor correction term.

Sure, you can say your God told you not to do it. Just don't look to science to back you up.

However, even if you are an 85% majority, there are certain inalienable rights the minority have. I seem to recall you agree to that. Why do you care where anyone puts their genetils, in the privacy of their home?



Never said they weren't God fearing. Just not Christians. See, for example, Tom Paine's "Age of Reason". He is specifically against "revealed" religion. Although often mistaken as an athiest, he did have faith in a God. Franklin, Jefferson and Madison had serious reservations about religion.



Yes, but in America you can't **** on even a 1% minority. And that is what makes this nation great.

We may get confused now and then about exactly where these rights end: gay marriage, public displays of the Cross, the context of the 10 commandments to name a few.

gbaji, I agree in essense with what you said. I never said it would be illegal for the class in question to be taught, only that it would be personally concerning. Just as Christians advocating, let's say, that no business be conducted on Sunday is simply concerning.

(Side note: several close friends and relations are Seventh Day Adventists (SDA): Christians who worship on Saturday and they take the sabbath quite seriously. They do get off work early on Friday so that they can prepare. I have no idea what vanler thinks about them, but they feel they are Christians, too, and I think America is big enough to accomodate their beliefs - and enforce their rights. gbaji and Moe may disagree (I don't know), they are for very limited government. Not to envoke Godwin, but actually, the SDA were so similar to Jews in the day they worshiped and the way they eat (they take these Hebrew Bible food laws seriously) that apparently the ***** in Hungary (at least) rounded many up with the Jews).

This statement in the context of homosexuals leads me to believe you are seriously confusing your church with society. Gay people fit into our society just fine.

To start things off I am not much of a debator, nor am i capable of arguing political theories and the like. I am simply here to **** and moan about the U.S. much like the rest of you. Many of you have covered key issues surrounding the current problems in the us , as such i propose a few, LOOSE, solutions.

1....Immigration- Pull all troops out of ALL foreign countries, it is time the U.S. minded there own fugging business for once. Now take those troops and use them to secure the boarders. Much like in Risk , defending your country is usually how you win the game.Now with the revenue not being spent on absolutely pointless wars , you could pay back some of your debt. Hell if i were bush id sell korea nukes, what are they gonna do with them. If one nation fires a Nuke it will be WW1 all over again, treaties will kick in and bam, we will all die in the nukelear aftermath, so who cares if they have nukes ( AND THERE NOT FUGGING MWD's). Mwd's are an invention of the government to terrorise you all into thinking the wars are justified, when there not. By killing thousands of innocents for each person killed in a terrorist act, are you really doing the "JUST " thing.

2... NOw this one would solve them all.....Kill christianity, wipe the ******* reluigion right out of the ******* presidency/government all togeather. ALL politicians should be neutral, athiests with no disposition to any religion......voters then could truly have a fair say. With gay marridge inpklace all you homophobic bastards could relax because thats 2 less gay people in the market fisahing for meat. Abortions wouldalso stiop us from going the way of china, well you. As well as trhat your country may even stop attacking countries that arent mainlychristian...when was the last one anyways :S

3 racisim is around ...in the immortal words of george carlin "america onl;y attaxcks brown countries, when was the last time we attacked a white country...well germany ...and that was because they were cutting in on our action". As well as that i believe that every man should gie up with the ******* penile insucurity, rockets bullets etc... there all shaped like penises , and were all trying to rove whos got the biggest ones...also from carlin.....well thats about all i have the time to say like it or lumop it those are my twio cents....

I agree with val , i should go back to school, bur that is beside the point. Every thing i stated is plausible, if merely a little poorly written and indeciceive. As for the read a book thing , i do, tons of em,sorry to say, but i do watch way "to t.v.", which im assuming means too much tv. But hey tv is the basis of all oinformation in the states right, i mean fox news is like big brother, tv is ALWAYS right :P lol.

KUDOS!!!

classic

To Patrican: This is a completely different issue but since you brought it up. Man are not monogamus creatures, we never have been nor will we ever be. Men have a natural or basic desire to procreate. Failure of todays society to recognize this most basic of all male instincts has resulted in porno, infidelity, divorce rates thru the roof, people living together out of wedlock, broken homes, std's, etc, etc. Todays average mom wakes up early and goes to work till she passes out every night of sheer exhaustion, her workload (daily) surpasses her male counterpart times three. You jump to loathe the system outlined in the old testament without thinking about the advantages. Woman had alot more help and were surround by sister wives who were dear to her. She was never lonely, her place was set and secure. She was able to be a full time mom and she was never faced with such tough decisions as abortion, divorce or adoption. Men were less sinful, there was no need for porno, infidelity or lust. Today's society for men is much more brutal as well. Our jails are full of disadvantage people who felt they could not compete sucessfully in our capitalist society. Men are ridicule for being short, skinny, stupid, tall, fat, wears glasses, ugly, etc. etc. In our society of winners today there is no tolerance for people who finish second and below. Men of the old testament were assured their own place in the family hierarchy. They got their own peice of land, they were able to married and raised their own family without bias and on equal footing with all other males. Regardless whether they finished first or last by todays standard their voice carried equal weigth. A man was automatically somebody because he was a man. If you grew up in this type of society you would not think it strange, to the contary you would probably view today society as loathesome and rightly so. The old testament is an instruction manual on how God wants us to live. Gods way is more attuned to who we really are and address our basic instincts as humans. Please before you ridicule the lifestyles outlined in the old testament, note the absence of today's woes.

Failure of todays society to recognize this most basic of all male instincts has resulted in porno, infidelity, divorce rates thru the roof, people living together out of wedlock, broken homes, std's, etc, etc.

I thought those things were the result of man's lustful desires...(instincts) who'd have thought


Woman had alot more help and were surround by sister wives who were dear to her. She was never lonely, her place was set and secure. She was able to be a full time mom and she was never faced with such tough decisions as abortion, divorce or adoption.

and Slaves lead a fulfilling life as well aye? they do't have to worry about the burden of FREEDOM and having to figure out waht to do with their lives....

PS: ever think of the rights of these "Sister Wives"? How about their families.. OHH I guess they don't have to worry about those burdensome things either...y'know.. leading their own lives..


Men were less sinful, there was no need for porno, infidelity or lust. Today's society for men is much more brutal as well. Our jails are full of disadvantage people who felt they could not compete sucessfully in our capitalist society. Men are ridicule for being short, skinny, stupid, tall, fat, wears glasses, ugly, etc. etc.

So are you teling us that there were no WHORES, BROTHELS, CONCUBINES, JAILS in Biblical times? and the people did not get made fun of for being different?

O...K..


In our society of winners today there is no tolerance for people who finish second and below.

OH, I guess Welfare and Charity and Philanthropy are really figments of our imaginations.... interesting..


The old testament is an instruction manual on how God wants us to live. Gods way is more attuned to who we really are and address our basic instincts as humans. Please before you ridicule the lifestyles outlined in the old testament, note the absence of today's woes.

No offense.. I respect the views of others... but HERe is a clear cut case of "What I think is better, MUST be better"

and the reason the Christians in todays world are seldom taken seriously..