WASHINGTON - Girding for a potential fight with the Bush administration, supporters of a ban on torturing prisoners of war by U.S. interrogators threatened Friday to include the prohibition in nearly every bill the Senate considers until it becomes law.
...
On Friday, at the urging of Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz, the Senate by a voice vote added the ban to a related defense bill as a backup.
Speaking from the Senate floor, McCain said, "If necessary - and I sincerely hope it is not - I and the co-sponsors of this amendment will seek to add it to every piece of important legislation voted on in the Senate until the will of a substantial bipartisan majority in both houses of Congress prevails. Let no one doubt our determination."
The ban would establish the Army Field Manual as the guiding authority in interrogations and prohibit "cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment" of prisoners.
The Bush administration has sought to exempt the CIA from the ban.
...
The provision would reverse the Bush administration's contention that conditions placed on the treatment of prisoners of war in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and other international treaties signed by the United States do not apply to foreigners held overseas.
The prisoners "can, apparently, be treated inhumanely," McCain said. "This means that America is the only country in the world that asserts a legal right to engage in cruel and inhumane treatment."
Bush initially threatened to veto the "must-pass" spending bill for the Pentagon if it contained the Senate provision. Later, he sought simply to exempt the CIA from the ban. McCain called that proposal "totally unacceptable."
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1105mccain-torture05.html
It is a shame that Karl Rove on behalf of Bush waged a smear campaign against Senator McCain during the 2000 primaries. You might actually have a real president.
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Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Good outcome, but I hate that they have to tack these things onto otherwise irrelevant bills. This is why half of congress probably never reads what they're voting for.
That, and some of the bills being 1000+ pages long full of incomprehensible, boring, put you to sleep in two minute info.
SilentPaskil wrote:
That, and some of the bills being 1000+ pages long full of incomprehensible, boring, put you to sleep in two minute info.
Oh I'm sorry, reading your post put me to sleep.
While I do subscribe to the "ends justifies the means" mentality when dealing with enemies of our nation, I'm glad to see ethics being legislated in this matter.
It's not that I mind the thought of of someone taking an 18 inch drill bit and starting at the tips of a terrorists fingers until he talks. It's that such behavior shouldn't be legally sanctioned. The people who do things like this should be the ones you have to keep under wraps. They shouldn't be walking around in open society wearing medals of service for doing that sort of deed.
I still think a few really big bombs would have been a lot more sanitary and humanitarian to deal with this matter. We have the ability to rain fire from the sky and lay nations to waste and we send in the army instead. ::sigh::
It's not that I mind the thought of of someone taking an 18 inch drill bit and starting at the tips of a terrorists fingers until he talks. It's that such behavior shouldn't be legally sanctioned. The people who do things like this should be the ones you have to keep under wraps. They shouldn't be walking around in open society wearing medals of service for doing that sort of deed.
I still think a few really big bombs would have been a lot more sanitary and humanitarian to deal with this matter. We have the ability to rain fire from the sky and lay nations to waste and we send in the army instead. ::sigh::
Quote:
It's not that I mind the thought of of someone taking an 18 inch drill bit and starting at the tips of a terrorists fingers until he talks. It's that such behavior shouldn't be legally sanctioned. The people who do things like this should be the ones you have to keep under wraps. They shouldn't be walking around in open society wearing medals of service for doing that sort of deed.
Aside from the fact that torture is morally reprehensible, torture doesn’t get you the facts. I gets you what you want to hear (or what the victim thinks you want to hear), because the torture continues until you get the information you desire. They will tell you what you want to hear (true or not) just to get the torture to stop.
Quote:
I still think a few really big bombs would have been a lot more sanitary and humanitarian to deal with this matter. We have the ability to rain fire from the sky and lay nations to waste and we send in the army instead. ::sigh::
Ya ***** morality. Just level the cities killing every man, women, and child. That’s much more humanitarian.
Quote:
Ya ***** morality. Just level the cities killing every man, women, and child. That’s much more humanitarian.
Cynic.
We can solve questions of torture by not taking prisoners under any circumstances. No ethical ambiguity that way.
Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman
or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
Adopted and Ratified by the United States of America in 1994.
Article 2
1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
This is important to note. Bush has continually tried to use a)the legal grey area of non uniformed combatants b) the need for increased national security in the face of a terrorist threat.
However in this bit of ratified convention it states that it is a)incumbent upon the govt to define and prevent acts of Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Which both houses of Congress, in a vast bipartisan effort, have tried to do and which Bush has promised to veto. b)that no state of emergency for any reason may justify torture. Bush is pushing for a CIA exemption on torture bans in the name of national security.
Edited, Wed Nov 9 12:55:46 2005 by bodhisattva
or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
Adopted and Ratified by the United States of America in 1994.
Article 2
1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
This is important to note. Bush has continually tried to use a)the legal grey area of non uniformed combatants b) the need for increased national security in the face of a terrorist threat.
However in this bit of ratified convention it states that it is a)incumbent upon the govt to define and prevent acts of Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. Which both houses of Congress, in a vast bipartisan effort, have tried to do and which Bush has promised to veto. b)that no state of emergency for any reason may justify torture. Bush is pushing for a CIA exemption on torture bans in the name of national security.
Edited, Wed Nov 9 12:55:46 2005 by bodhisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Wingchild wrote:
Quote:
Ya ***** morality. Just level the cities killing every man, women, and child. That’s much more humanitarian.
Cynic.
We can solve questions of torture by not taking prisoners under any circumstances. No ethical ambiguity that way.
Don't leave orphans... must kill entire families...
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
John McCain wrote:
Speaking from the Senate floor, McCain said, "If necessary - and I sincerely hope it is not - I and the co-sponsors of this amendment will seek to add it to every piece of important legislation voted on in the Senate until the will of a substantial bipartisan majority in both houses of Congress prevails. Let no one doubt our determination."
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Quote:
It is a shame that Karl Rove on behalf of Bush waged a smear campaign against Senator McCain during the 2000 primaries. You might actually have a real president.
It’s funny that you bring that up. I was actually rooting for the man when this happened.
The core issue is that Bush made it official US policy to eke out what information we could from non-governmental backed aggressors. This whole thing could have been avoided by simply doing what we have been doing for years-- take them to our allies who have little or no compunction against torture or by bringing those individuals whose knowledge we don't wish to share to CIA interrogation rooms.
Problem solved. As it stands, we likely will nerf one of our abilities to extract information from those who probably have it. This is a direct outcome of classifying a large segment of combatants a high priority source, when the vast majority of them are just terrorist foot soldiers.
Totem
Problem solved. As it stands, we likely will nerf one of our abilities to extract information from those who probably have it. This is a direct outcome of classifying a large segment of combatants a high priority source, when the vast majority of them are just terrorist foot soldiers.
Totem
Quote:
As it stands, we likely will nerf one of our abilities to extract information from those who probably have it
The problem is that all information gained from such methods is usually not entirely true.
Read up on the interrigation methods used by the police and the actual rates of "good" information gained. Using torture will produce unreliable results.
It is inherent that information extracted by antagonistic forces is suspect, Diveos and Youshutup. The only way to vet such intelligence is to corfirm it by independent sources, be that HUMINT or SIGINT. Misinformation or being told what one wants to hear is a given in this line of business.
A good interrogator will be able to match his coersion techniques with the pain threshold or psychological stamina of his target, but not exceed the suspect's tolerance for handling such stress. Rather, it is the fear of greater or more damaging debilitators that produce the best results.
And no, you may not know where I became privvy to such knowledge, all jokes about me having to kill you if I told you aside.
Totem
A good interrogator will be able to match his coersion techniques with the pain threshold or psychological stamina of his target, but not exceed the suspect's tolerance for handling such stress. Rather, it is the fear of greater or more damaging debilitators that produce the best results.
And no, you may not know where I became privvy to such knowledge, all jokes about me having to kill you if I told you aside.
Totem
Quote:
And no, you may not know where I became privvy to such knowledge
I learned all that in "Braveheart"
Totem wrote:
And no, you may not know where I became privvy to such knowledge, all jokes about me having to kill you if I told you aside.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
trickybeck wrote:
Good outcome, but I hate that they have to tack these things onto otherwise irrelevant bills. This is why half of congress probably never reads what they're voting for.
Make that ALL of Congress and you're correct. Some adult barely out of high school that has been assigned to the issue reads it, then briefs the Chief of Staff, who then briefs the member.
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