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Theres a bomb in the FFXI forum!Follow

#1 Nov 04 2005 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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Web sites weigh problem of posted threats
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9925641/ wrote:


LOS ANGELES - Two weeks before William Freund donned a mask and cape and fatally shot two neighbors before killing himself, members of an online forum for people with a rare mental disorder read the 19-year-old's string of violent rantings.

Freund's online musings and his pre-Halloween rampage raised fresh questions about the little-policed world of Internet discussion rooms: What, if anything, should Web site gatekeepers do when users post threatening messages online?

Internet law experts generally agree there is no legal onus on site owners or users to notify police. Cyberspace is so intricate and its users often anonymous that to react to every threatening post would be impossibly time-consuming and expensive.

Still, ethicists say operators should try to alert authorities if they believe a user is serious about committing harm. While monitors of Freund's postings unsuccessfully tried to reach his parents, they didn't reach out to authorities.

"If there are signs that people are going off the deep end and we don't do anything about it, then it could have calamitous results," said Richard Spinello, a Boston College professor who specializes in technology and ethics.

In recent years, a handful of chat room users who published violent messages have been prosecuted, but such threats rarely are carried out, legal experts say.

Web sites where the threats are posted are rarely sued because they're not legally bound to alert police, said Nicolas Terry, an Internet law expert at Saint Louis University's Center for Health Law Studies.

Before last Saturday's shootings, Freund begged for help and told an online message board for people with Asperger's syndrome, a neurological disorder marked by a lack of social and communications skills, that he was lonely and suicidal and would begin a "terror campaign to hurt those that have hurt me."

Some users of the Web site, wrongplanet.net, thought Freund was crying wolf. Others reached out with advice.

"He seemed really troubled, but he didn't seem like the type of person who would do this," said site operator Alexander Plank, 19, a computer science student at George Mason University.

Since the killings, Plank said, the site's monitors have become more vigilant about online postings and are debating whether to collect information about users. One Internet scholar warned against that approach.

"It is very risky to impose responsibility on Web site owners to police their users," said Jennifer Granick, executive director of Stanford University's Center for Internet and Society. "How do you know if someone is serious? Are you making a big deal out of nothing? How hard are you supposed to try? Are you betraying the person?"

In recent years, online chat rooms have mushroomed into virtual communities where people can reinvent themselves behind screen names. For people with a rare disorder such as Asperger's, interacting online can be especially therapeutic.

But online forums can also free some users to post exaggerations or lies, making it difficult for webmasters to distinguish fact from fiction. And many of those message boards are patrolled by volunteers who may not be able to recognize a problem because they are young or not trained as mental health professionals.

After the shootings, one member of wrongplanet wrote that, "no-one here has the capability - in any practical sense - to offer the level and sort of help needed."

Complicating the matter are privacy laws and Web site policies that prohibit operators from surrendering personal user information to the government, unless there is an immediate danger.

Authorities are still trying to determine what set off Freund two days before Halloween, when he drove to his neighbors' home in Aliso Viejo, a wealthy section of Orange County and killed a father and his 22-year-old daughter. The teen also fired into another home, wounding the person inside, and tried to shoot another neighbor. When his gun misfired, he went home and committed suicide.

Orange County sheriff's spokesman Jim Amormino later urged Internet users to call police if they notice suspicious postings.

After the shootings, the wrongplanet site fluttered with comments.

"I think if there is ever another member here who says things about wanting to harm people," read one posting, "we should do something about it. I don't know what we can do, though."

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.


So what do you think? Should Alla have to report every threat that flies around here? Would there even be anyone left in the asylum to flame if he did?

Edited, Fri Nov 4 16:03:36 2005 by xythex
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Nicroll 65 Assassin
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Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
#2 Nov 04 2005 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
I'm going to kill everyone in my building!!!!!!1111six

Smiley: laugh
#3 Nov 04 2005 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
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TILT
This actually came up in another fashion on another forum I frequent. I'm a little hazy on the details since it was a long while ago but someone who was a minor posted that he was going to commit suicide (as in "I just swallowed 500 pills" not "I hate my life"). Someone alerted the admins who used his registration information to contact his parents and the police. There was a big hub-bub about whether or not the admins overstepped their bounds.

I admit I can't think of an easy answer to that one.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#4 Nov 04 2005 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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With as much as we vehemently advocate suicide to posters for the most mundane reasons I certainly wouldn't expect Alla to follow up on them all. Although, it might be kind of nice to have a tally of the most successfull methods
____________________________
Nicroll 65 Assassin
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere

Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
#5 Nov 04 2005 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
That article looks like it was written as an "issue" for "Nation States" it's so ludicrous.
#6 Nov 04 2005 at 4:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,863 posts
If an admin takes action to prevent harm to someone, does that in any way make them liable for anything that happens? Example, say a user posts "I just swallowed 500 pills" and the admin calls the cops about it. The call is late; the kid is dead by the time they get there.

Irrespective of the underlying question (whether their kid was calling for help, or whether he was just a waste of sperm), what happens if the parents decide that the admin should have acted faster? Can they file a lawsuit?

I wouldn't want any administrator placed under the burden of having to save yahoos from themselves. God forbid they wind up with some form of legal liability in doing so.



I am also uncomfortably reminded of the `i told u i was hardcore` kid - the one who committed suicide via drug overdose while on IRC, with channel participants egging him on. You can still find the chatlogs online, I think; it's interesting to watch people debating whether or not they should call 911 while this jackass is dying.
#7 Nov 04 2005 at 4:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Call 911 and say what?

"911 Emergency services..."
"Quick! Get on IRC! There's a kid committing suicide!"

Smiley: dubious
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#8 Nov 04 2005 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
Jophiel wrote:
Call 911 and say what?

"911 Emergency services..."
"Quick! Get on IRC! There's a kid committing suicide!"

Smiley: dubious


Operator: Um Ok sir can, you please give me his name and address?
Joph: Sure! It's IMMA_STONER, and his address is 192.168.1.1
Operator: ...
#9 Nov 04 2005 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
I think admins should be prosecuted for invasion of privacy if they do call the police.



It's a lameass concept but I don't anyone getting in the way of a suicide. What can I say? I'm not a people person.
#10 Nov 04 2005 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Alla's not responsible for you crazy fu[/i]cks. However if you make claims of suicide I do think think a follow up would be nice to make sure you was successful.
#11 Nov 04 2005 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Alla's not responsible for you crazy *****. However if you make claims of suicide I do think think a follow up would be nice to make sure you was successful.


I also think you should be immortalized with a custom title or something if you do it by drinking bleach and then giving yourself a chainsaw enima or via one of the other countless as[/b]snine suggestions given out here.
____________________________
Nicroll 65 Assassin
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere

Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
#12 Nov 04 2005 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
Lord xythex wrote:

I also think you should be immortalized with a custom title or something if you do it by drinking bleach and then giving yourself a chainsaw enima or via one of the other countless as[/b]snine suggestions given out here.


What the fu[b][/b]ck is a dead guy gonna do with a custom title? Perhaps the person who gave out the suggestion that was used should get the title. /nod





Edited, Fri Nov 4 16:45:13 2005 by Elderon
#13 Nov 04 2005 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I also think you should be immortalized with a custom title or something if you do it by drinking bleach and then giving yourself a chainsaw enima or via one of the other countless assnine suggestions given out here.
But only if you pay for premium right?
#14 Nov 04 2005 at 4:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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MentalFrog wrote:
Alla's not responsible for you crazy fu[/i]cks.
It's not a question of if he's responsible. I'm sure he could elect to do nothing and not be in trouble for it. The question is whether or not he'd overstep his bounds to actually take action.

You can't really argue that it's none of his business. By publicly announcing it on a forum, you make it everyone's business. If you want to die quietly and alone, don't make a spectacle of yourself on the way out.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#15 Nov 04 2005 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If you want to die quietly and alone, don't make a spectacle of yourself on the way out.


I hate drama queens too.
#16 Nov 04 2005 at 4:43 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
What the **** is a dead guy gonna do with a custom title? Perhaps the person who gave out the suggestion that was used should get the title. /nod


That's a better idea, and maybe skulls or something over their stars for each person that uses their suggested method
____________________________
Nicroll 65 Assassin
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere

Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
#17 Nov 04 2005 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
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19,369 posts
Quote:
That's a better idea, and maybe skulls or something over their stars for each person that uses their suggested method
Which you would only see when they posted again. Or some dumbass starts necroposting again. Again there's no point.
#18 Nov 04 2005 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Theres a bomb in the FFXI forum!


Yeah, sorry about that I couldn't think of a better place to relieve that pressure. It was really bothering me, and I didn't want to stink up the Assylum.
#19 Nov 04 2005 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,863 posts
Quote:
Call 911 and say what?

"911 Emergency services..."
"Quick! Get on IRC! There's a kid committing suicide!"



Not exactly; more like...

Quote:

[05:05] <Smoke2k> hes on phone
[05:06] <Smoke2k> well or not
[05:06] <Smoke2k> hes severely fu[/b]cked up I guess but coherent enough to do computer tasks
[05:06] <Oea> ?
[05:06] <Smoke2k> he ceases to amaze me
[05:06] <Oea> he can't talk?
[05:07] <Smoke2k> I don't know he just mumbled into phone something like fu[b]
ck that and hung up
[05:07] <Smoke2k> but he was working on vpn
[05:07] <Smoke2k> I guess lol
[05:07] <Oea> he hung up??
[05:07] <Smoke2k> hes prolly goin to black out again or something


Some of the channel participants had his phone number. He was also on a webcam at the time, so they could montior his progress, as the kid blacked out from the drug overdose he had taken. They had the numbers for poison control. They even knew his address, pulled from the WHOIS for the domain the kid had.


Quote:

[05:08] <***> is ripper dead?
[05:08] <Oea> yeah
[05:08] <Oea> just about
[05:09] <Oea> CALL
[05:09] <Oea> THE
[05:09] <grphish> almost
[05:09] <Oea> FUC[/b]KING
[05:09] <grphish> :((((
[05:09] <Oea> COPS
[05:09] <grphish> NO
[05:09] <grphish> poison control
[05:09] <Pnutbot> 1-800-222-1222
[05:09] <grphish> poison control
[05:09] <Pnutbot> 1-800-222-1222
[05:09] <grphish> poison control
[05:09] <Pnutbot> 1-800-222-1222
[05:09] <grphish> poison control
[05:09] <Pnutbot> 1-800-222-1222
[05:09] <grphish> NOW
[05:09] <Smoke2k> no
[05:09] <Smoke2k> wait
[05:09] <Pnutbot> wait is that legal?



They even sorta kinda tried to maybe call and get the kid some help -- but other channel participants were scared of the consequences.

Quote:

[05:21] <Oea> Where does he live?
[05:21] <Oea> wjhat city?
[05:21] <Smoke2k> damn this is insane
[05:21] <Oea> WHAT CITY?
[05:21] <Oea> if this is a joke
[05:22] <Smoke2k> fuc[b]
king phoenix i am pretty sure
[05:22] <Oea> i swear
[05:22] <Oea> okay
[05:22] <Smoke2k> might not want to do that
[05:22] <Smoke2k> but then again I don't know
[05:22] <Smoke2k> he might just be fuc[/b]ked up and not have stuff straight
[05:22] <Smoke2k> you could really fuc[b]
king get him arrested
[05:22] <Smoke2k> damn this is hard call
[05:22] <Smoke2k> yall make it
[05:22] <Smoke2k> good night
[05:22] * Smoke2k has quit IRC (Leaving: )
[05:23] <Oea> i am on line with 911
[05:23] <Oea> is this the right choice?
[05:23] <theKat> NO
[05:23] <Oea> ??
[05:23] <grphish> mayb
[05:23] <grphish> probably is
[05:23] <grphish> just tell him for help
[05:23] <grphish> or somehting
[05:24] <theKat> NO
[05:24] <theKat> NO
[05:24] <theKat> NO
[05:24] <theKat> NO
[05:24] <theKat> NO
[05:24] <theKat> NO
[05:24] <theKat> NO
[05:24] <theKat> NO
[05:24] <theKat> NO
[05:24] <Oea> lolol
[05:24] <Oea> okay
[05:24] <Oea> i talked my way out of it
[05:24] <Oea> didn't give them any info



The chatlogs make for some odd reading.

Want more?

chatlog before the kid passed out
chatlog after the kid passed out


I have another chatlog lying around involving some 'tard who decided to go ***** with a power line and got electrocuted by it, too.

brrrrrrzap

So, what level of responsibility - of culpability - would admins have for stuff like this? What level of responsibility is held by the people involved in these conversations?

Thorny questions.
#20 Nov 04 2005 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
With as much as we vehemently advocate suicide to posters for the most mundane reasons I certainly wouldn't expect Alla to follow up on them all. Although, it might be kind of nice to have a tally of the most successfull methods


Apparently pissing off Allakhazam seems to be highly successful way to go.

#21 Nov 04 2005 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
Oh no! Someone set us up the bomb!
#22 Nov 04 2005 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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4,596 posts
The skulls were for the person making the suggestion, bit ambiguous wording on my part. Kind of like notches in a bed post
____________________________
Nicroll 65 Assassin
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere

Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
#23 Nov 04 2005 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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3,101 posts
What liability can't be solved with a simple discliamer.


*Please note that <insert site here> will not be held responsible for your death/murder/suicide attempt should you choose to advertise the events on <insert site here>.
#24 Nov 04 2005 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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4,596 posts
Speaking of death by OD on a forum. Did Hippo ever post again after his "lets see how high I can get" thread?
____________________________
Nicroll 65 Assassin
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere

Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
#25 Nov 04 2005 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
Lord xythex wrote:
The skulls were for the person making the suggestion, bit ambiguous wording on my part. Kind of like notches in a bed post


"There is no 5th skull"

Edited, Fri Nov 4 17:13:44 2005 by Lefein
#26 Nov 04 2005 at 5:23 PM Rating: Decent
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19,369 posts
Quote:
The skulls were for the person making the suggestion, bit ambiguous wording on my part. Kind of like notches in a bed post
Actually I got that part like 2 seconds after I hit the post button. It's the weekend and my brain is going in vacation mode. Also too lazy to edit it.
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