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House bill counters eminent domain rulingFollow

#1 Nov 04 2005 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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WASHINGTON (AP) -- Contending that the Supreme Court has undermined a pillar of American society -- the sanctity of the home -- the House overwhelmingly approved a bill Thursday to block the court-approved seizure of private property for use by developers.

The bill, passed 376-38, would withhold federal money from state and local governments that use powers of eminent domain to force businesses and homeowners to give up their property for commercial uses.

The Supreme Court, in a 5-4 ruling in June, recognized the power of local governments to seize property needed for private development projects that generate tax revenue. The decision drew criticism from private property, civil rights, farm and religious groups that said it was an abuse of the Fifth Amendment's "takings clause." That language provides for the taking of private property, with fair compensation, for public use.

The court's June decision, said House Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner, R-Wisconsin, changed established constitutional principles by holding that "any property may now be taken for the benefit of another private party."

The ruling in Kelo v. City of New London allowed the Connecticut city to exercise state eminent domain law to require several homeowners to cede their property for commercial use.

With this "infamous" decision, said Rep. Phil Gingrey, R-Georgia, "homes and small businesses across the country have been placed in grave jeopardy and threatened by the government wrecking ball."

The bill, said Chip Mellor, president of the Institute for Justice, which represented the Kelo homeowners before the Supreme Court, "highlights the fact that this nation's eminent domain and urban renewal laws need serious and substantial changes."

But opponents argued that the federal government should not be interceding in what should be a local issue. "We should not change federal law every time members of Congress disagree with the judgment of a locality when it uses eminent domain for the purpose of economic development," said Rep. Bobby Scott, D-Virginia.

The legislation is the latest, and most far-reaching, of several congressional responses to the court ruling. The House previously passed a measure to bar federal transportation money from going for improvements on land seized for private development. The Senate approved an amendment to a transportation spending bill applying similar restrictions. The bill now moves to the Senate, where Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, has introduced companion legislation.

About half the states are also considering changes in their laws to prevent takings for private use.

The Bush administration, backing the House bill, said in a statement that "private property rights are the bedrock of the nation's economy and enjoy constitutionally protected status. They should also receive an appropriate level of protection by the federal government."

The House bill would cut off for two years all federal economic development funds to states and localities that use economic development as a rationale for property seizures. It also would bar the federal government from using eminent domain powers for economic development.

"By subjecting all projects to penalties, we are removing a loophole that localities can exploit by playing a 'shell game' with projects," said Rep. Henry Bonilla, R-Texas, a chief sponsor.

The House, by a voice vote, approved Gingrey's proposal to bar states or localities in pursuit of more tax money from exercising eminent domain over nonprofit or tax-exempt religious organizations. Churches, he said, "should not have to fear because God does not pay enough in taxes."

Eminent domain, the right of government to take property for public use, is typically used for projects that benefit an entire community, such as highways, airports or schools.

Justice John Paul Stevens, who wrote the majority opinion in Kelo, said in an August speech that while he had concerns about the results, the ruling was legally correct because the high court has "always allowed local policy-makers wide latitude in determining how best to achieve legitimate public goals."

Several lawmakers who opposed the House bill said eminent domain has long been used by local governments for economic development projects such as the Inner Harbor in Baltimore and the cleaning up of Times Square in New York. The District of Columbia is expected to use eminent domain to secure land for a new baseball stadium for the Washington Nationals.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


FU SCOTUS
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#2 Nov 04 2005 at 3:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Damn activist Congressmen, judiciating from the.. uh.. Congress-desk-thing..

Yeah. Think about it.
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#3 Nov 04 2005 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
Nah, they're actually doing their jobs.

The SC said there's nothing on the books that protects the individual in eminent domain cases like this, so we rule with the law, take it away from the little guy.

For once in their lives, our representatives decided to take quick action and PUT something on the books to correct a manifest WRONG. The 38 who voted against should be booted from office.
#4 Nov 04 2005 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wasn't really being serious. I was against the SCotUS ruling.
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#5 Nov 04 2005 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
I know. I don't think anyone actually posted in favor of it.







Not anyone with sense, anyway.
#6 Nov 04 2005 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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TStephens wrote:

For once in their lives, our representatives decided to take quick action and PUT something on the books to correct a manifest WRONG. The 38 who voted against should be booted from office.


/nod

I was actully shocked when reading this article.
#7 Nov 04 2005 at 4:34 PM Rating: Good
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I am definitely not in favor of the effect of the ruling but I do believe the court made the correct technical ruling. The court interprets the law, if the law has an unintended result, then the court has to interpret it as such and not get creative and “legislate from the bench” to fix the result. Then the lazy asses in congress have to get up and fix the flaws in the law. That is pretty much what happened here. This way we get a real fix to the problem and not a band aid fix and technically improper fix that a legislative judge would give. Though I do think more legislation needs to follow at the state levels to get rid of this once and for all.

Edited, Fri Nov 4 16:47:03 2005 by fhrugby
#8 Nov 04 2005 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
fhrugby wrote:






Who cares what you think? Did I say you could think? Drop and give me 20. Next time be sure to ask for permission before thinking. Filling out forms T-23a and U-69 will begin the approval/denial process.

Consider this a first written warning. Any further warnings will be noted in your permanent record with the forum.

Good day to you.
#9 Nov 04 2005 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Bad form Elderon, save the flames for posts that deserve them.


Actually, the way I read the article congress really hasn't addressed the original wording that lead to the SCOTUS ruling. They are only applying a legal band aid of penalties for states that use the power.
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#10 Nov 04 2005 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
Lord xythex wrote:
Bad form Elderon, save the flames for posts that deserve them.

I just felt like poking him with a stick. Smiley: grin





I feel so ashamed. Smiley: lol
#11 Nov 04 2005 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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I'd make the observation that it's the Democrats who pushed the emminent domain issue in the first place, and it was only the four most conservative justices that opposed the majority opinion in the SCOTUS (you know. Evil conservatives like Rhenquist).

You'd think things like this would open some folks eyes to the fact that their causes and the people they put in power to further them aren't necessarily for the best in all things. It's not all black and white. You are *not* the good guys...


But that would be crazy talk, right?
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#12 Nov 04 2005 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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It's not all black and white.

Dude, why do you always have to play the race card? This had nothing to do with Varus v. Negroes.
#13 Nov 04 2005 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think it would be fair to say that the justices acted along party lines though. This was not an even split according to opinion polls but more like 97% of Americans against it. I'm not really even sure what the justices were thinking during that vote.
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#14 Nov 04 2005 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
thank god.
#15 Nov 04 2005 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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Lord xythex wrote:
I don't think it would be fair to say that the justices acted along party lines though. This was not an even split according to opinion polls but more like 97% of Americans against it. I'm not really even sure what the justices were thinking during that vote.


Yes. Almost all americans when presented with the legistlation opposed it. But it was voted in place by Democrats. It was challenged in court and won localy via a mostly Democrat appointed circut court. It then was appealed and passed on to the state court, where it again passed (again to a largely Democrat appointed court), where it finally arrived at the SCOTUS and *still* won, with 3 liberal justices voting for it, 3 conservatives voting against it, 2 swings voting for it, and 1 swing voting with the minority conservatives against it.

My point is that the only people in government (representative in the legistlature and justices on various benches) that have opposed this on behalf of the rights of the people have been conservatives. At every single layer, Democrat politicians and Democrat appointed justices have approved of the enhanced emminent domain. It was only when the issue generated a public outcry that Dems in the US congress began to oppose it, and even then, some are still in favor of it (how many of those 38 do you think were Dems and how many Republicans?).


Things like this *should* make you wonder if you're backing the right horse. Just saying...
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#16 Nov 04 2005 at 6:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, I disagreed with something the Democrats were behind. And yet, when I make my little tally, I still find myself voting Democrat.

I guess if the only issue in government was Eminent Domain, you'd have a good point though Smiley: laugh
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#17 Nov 04 2005 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:

I guess if the only issue in government was Eminent Domain, you'd have a good point though Smiley: laugh


You have to remember though Joph, that he really believes the war, along with other reasons, are also good points to back his horse.

Edited, Fri Nov 4 18:23:10 2005 by fenderputy
#18 Nov 04 2005 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, you'll be singing a different tune when those developers begin bulldozing your house, Joph. But guess what? We'll just sniff loudly and say, "Suuuuuuure. Now you're a one issue voter, aren't you?[/i]

;)

Totem
#19 Nov 04 2005 at 6:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: laugh

Well, you'll certainly have me then, won't ya?
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#20 Nov 04 2005 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, I disagreed with something the Democrats were behind. And yet, when I make my little tally, I still find myself voting Democrat.

I guess if the only issue in government was Eminent Domain, you'd have a good point though


It's a small example of the difference in thought between liberals and conservatives though Joph. It's funny how you (and most people) are opposed to the government taking your property away when it can be shown to statistically serve a greater purpose elsewhere, but don't seem to care much when it's someone else's property.

The exact same reasoning is behind socilized medicine btw. Take property away (in the form of taxes) because we can show a statistical improvement of health over the entire society if we re-channel that money into medical care.

Same process with virtually every program the Dems (and by proxy supported by liberal votes) are behind. Wellfare? Same thing. Improve the "stats" of the nation as a whole by taking away from some indiscriminantly. End hunger? Same argument. Take property from some to provide for others.

But you get so caught up in the specifics of each case that you miss the pattern of thought behind them. "But it's good that everyone get free medical care!!!". Sure it is. But the same process that arrives at that conclusion also arrives at the conclusion that if a piece of property will benefit society more if it's in the hands of a mall owner then your hands, then we should re-distribute that as well. It's good to improve commerce, right? People need to be able to buy stuff. How can you obtain the goods of a free society if there are no stores nearby to sell them to you? Clearly, we should take the houses of the people living in the best spot for a new mall, and put one there.


That is *exactly* the logic used for most Liberal causes. The good of the society as a whole outweighs the rights and freedoms of any individual within that society. Why then be surprised when Dem politicians and Dem appointed justices follow that logic? It's what you've told them you want...
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#21 Nov 04 2005 at 7:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It's a small example of the difference in thought between liberals and conservatives though Joph. It's funny how you (and most people) are opposed to the government taking your property away when it can be shown to statistically serve a greater purpose elsewhere, but don't seem to care much when it's someone else's property.
(A) I'm not opposed to the government taking property when "it can be shown to statistically serve a greater purpose elsewhere". I'm opposed to the government taking it for redistribution to private enterprise for their profit. If said "greater purpose" is for, say, a water treatment facility, a high school or an expressway I may well feel very different about it. I'll leave it to you to noodle out what I'm getting at here.

(B) There's a whole lotta issues, both social and economic. By in large, I tend to disagree with the Republicans and agree with the Democrats. I do not always agree with the Democrats as evidenced by a number of posts I've made disagreeing with their actions. However, we're in a two party system for good or for ill and so it falls upon me to distill which issues I feel as an individual are most important and it's in my best interests to side with those who are most likely to advance or defense those issues. When the day comes that a Republican candidate best represents those things, I'll vote for them. Heck, it's almost happened at a state level before. Has yet to happen at a national level but we can all hold out hope.

Now, you can point to each thing and harp on about how the conservatives would have done it better, are always correct and, in instances where they aren't correct it's because the folks involved weren't real conservatives. However, I can accept things aren't all red and blue and still find my place in the spectrum.
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#22 Nov 04 2005 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
(A) I'm not opposed to the government taking property when "it can be shown to statistically serve a greater purpose elsewhere". I'm opposed to the government taking it for redistribution to private enterprise for their profit. If said "greater purpose" is for, say, a water treatment facility, a high school or an expressway I may well feel very different about it. I'll leave it to you to noodle out what I'm getting at here.


Ok. But apparently your defintion of what exactly is a legitimate "greater purpose" and some other people's ideas of that differ, right? Are you saying that the government cannot show that the property in question will serve a greater purpose for the economy if it's in the hands of that private business then that private citizen? And if they can, how do you distinquish between the "greater good" that you agree with and the "greater good" that you dont?

Which is exactly why conservatives say that it's dangerous to *ever* make that decision. Because you may not think that saving the spotted mink owl is worth taking away someone's private property, but someone else will. And you may not think that boosting the economy in an area by taking away someone's home isn't worth it, but someone else will (and is in this case).


I find this particular topic doubly amusing because every single time I argue in opposition to things like wellfare and socialized medicine and the general "government has a responsiblity for the direct overall care of the citizens" type issues, I argue this exact same point. That the justifications used for the things that *you* agree with in this case can also be used to justify things you won't agree on down the line. And every time, that's meet with a cry of "Slippery Slope!!!".

Well here we are Joph. The slippery slope has come true. The government that you support giving the power to take away property for the "greater good" is now using that power to justify taking away property for things you don't like. Just as conservatives have warned about for decades.

But hey! Keep calling out slippery slope. Keep assuming that if we give the government power to take away private property in situations we agree with, that they'll never at any point in the future try to use that same power to do so in situations we don't. Keep that head burried firmly in the sand.

Or maybe be thankful that us conservatives are here to keep you "head in the clouds" liberals from handing the government too much power in your blind rush to solve the social problem of the moment.


Quote:
(B) There's a whole lotta issues, both social and economic. By in large, I tend to disagree with the Republicans and agree with the Democrats. I do not always agree with the Democrats as evidenced by a number of posts I've made disagreeing with their actions. However, we're in a two party system for good or for ill and so it falls upon me to distill which issues I feel as an individual are most important and it's in my best interests to side with those who are most likely to advance or defense those issues. When the day comes that a Republican candidate best represents those things, I'll vote for them. Heck, it's almost happened at a state level before. Has yet to happen at a national level but we can all hold out hope.


So the next time someone accuses me of supporting the religious right purely because I'm a republican, you'll step up to the plate and argue with them that in a two party system, you may be a member of a party but not agree with everything that every other member of that party believes in, right? And maybe even top it off with the fact that it's a logical fallacy to assume that because one group of republicans believe one thing, that *all* republicans must also believe those same things...

Just checking. Because I've not seen you espouse that concept too loudly before Joph. In fact, I'm reasonably sure that you've argued the exact opposite on several occasions. Given the number of times you've pointed at something a single group of republicans have done and then pointed at me and said the equivalent of "you're supporting these guys", I find it surprising that you're now claiming that this isn't true.


Quote:
Now, you can point to each thing and harp on about how the conservatives would have done it better, are always correct and, in instances where they aren't correct it's because the folks involved weren't real conservatives. However, I can accept things aren't all red and blue and still find my place in the spectrum.


So can I. I've stated on many occasions that the reason I vote republican (primarily) is that I believe that the "danger" of the republican party is the religious right, but that that organization is incredibly obvious and incredibly easy to block. But the danger in the democratic party is the silent and steady removal of our civil liberties as a result of the steady onward push to re-engineer society and "fix" problems. It's easy to get people to vote to "end hunger". So easy that most people wont stop to ask what you'll have to do to do it, nor care about what rights and freedoms may be lost in the process.

Does this mean that I agree with all agendas put out there by all republicans? Not at all. Does this mean that I disagree with all agendas put out there by democrats? Not at all. But on the whole, I tend to prefer voting for the party that's not as likely to give away my freedoms as a side effect of their causes. Sure. The Religious right will try to do it as a direct effect of their cause, but that's easy to see and easy to block. It's easy to point to them and say that we should block their actions because they're trying to remove other people's freedoms. It's a lot harder to be the guy arguing against socialized medicine, not because you *want* people to have no health care, but because the cost to personal freedom on a host of levels as a result of the process of implementing socialized medicine is too high. It's a much harder thing to see.

And it's certainly a lot harder thing to argue, judging purely by the amount of virtriol I get from some posters here when I merely suggest something like that maybe a vaccination against a sexually transmitted disease should be something that people can choose to take rather then be mandated by the government.

Or is not being able to choose what medicines to take and when not a removal of freedom? Yeah. Separate topic. Same concept. The rights and freedoms of the individual are suborned by the needs of the state. To me that concept is *vastly* more dangerous then anything the Religious Right is likely to ever do because it "seems" to be for the good of everyone. People like Ambrya will strongly support such things because after all, saving lives and helping people is "good", right? It's very very hard to see behind the individual issue and see the patterns of government power going on.

I'm a conservative because I *can* see that danger. And I recognize that most people can't or wont see it and will freely and happily give their freedoms (and mine!) away for the social equivalent of a handful of beads and a bottle of whisky...
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#23 Nov 04 2005 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's no way in hell I'm reading all that Smiley: laugh

I've yet to ever see you disagree with what the Right is up to. I've yet to see you ever say "Yeah, this was a bad move for the Republicans." You keep on typing your fifteen paragraphs and I'll keep on thinking you're a tool until I can see you disagree with the Right now and then without watering it down by blaming it all on the "liberal Christians" or "it's really economically motivated but they'll never say it" or any of the hundred other excuses you carry for why your side does no wrong.

I asked you once and you never answered: What philosophies or agendas of the Republicans do you think are off base? What do you just disagree with? What do you think the Democrats have the right idea on that the Republicans don't?

Come up with answers to that that doesn't involve you hedging your answers to make the Republicans sound good and I might read your post.
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#24 Nov 05 2005 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Incidentally, the vote tally for the House bill was as follows:
Republicans: 218:2 with 10 not voting or absent
Democrats: 157:36 with 9 not voting or absent
Independants: The only one voted to pass

So over four times as many Democrats voted to pass the bill as voted to block it. Somehow, I'll be able to sleep tonight not fearing that the scary Democrats have taking my property away on their communist agenda. Probably because it's not really on the Democratic agenda given that 82% of the voting Democratic House members thought the bill was a good idea.

Keep harping on who appointed which judges though!
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#25 Nov 05 2005 at 11:56 AM Rating: Default
For once in their lives, our representatives decided to take quick action and PUT something on the books to correct a manifest WRONG. The 38 who voted against should be booted from office.
------------------------------------------------------

i love the irony.

the house is sponsering a bill to counter the very bill THEY passed during the california wildfires that gives individual states sole authority to govern state resources and private property

and then.......

puts the blame on the supreme court for not protecting private property from the bill the house passed that origonally stripped away individual protections.

the moral majority working for you.
#26 Nov 07 2005 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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Ok. Don't usually check the forums on the weekend, and I'm *also* sick (you gave me the flu Joph! Darn you to heck!). But I don't want you to get the impression I'm avoiding the question so...

Jophiel wrote:
I asked you once and you never answered: What philosophies or agendas of the Republicans do you think are off base? What do you just disagree with? What do you think the Democrats have the right idea on that the Republicans don't?


I've answered this several times. You just seem to ignore the answer when I give it. I disagree with the agenda of the Religious Right. I don't believe that we should mandate prayer in school. I don't think we should have "under God" in our pledge. I don't think we the motto of the US should be "In God We Trust". I don't think creationism should be taught in science class, nor do I feel that there's any more reason to point out that evolution is a theory then pointing out that gravity is a theory. I'm pro-choice, but I believe that that choice should be made on a state by state level, and not mandated by a court decision (so, while I agree with the position in Roe v. Wade, I don't agree that it was the correct way to "solve" the abortion problem).

Things I agree with the Republican party about:

I believe that government should not intervene in business and/or private affairs unless there is an overwhelming socio-economic reason to do so. I believe that private interprise (and by proxy private citizens) should be given the opportunity to succeed *first* before government steps in with a solution. I believe that most things are best resolves locally first. I believe that the structure of our government should be like a three layered cake. Biggest on the bottom and smallest on the top. I believe that all those things promote the greatest individual freedom for each citizen while ensuring that each citizens freedoms don't impose overly much on those around them (each locality can decide the bulk of their rules rather then a mandate from a federal level).

I believe that people have a right to opportunity, but not a promise of success. That they have to do for themselves. I believe that a society that removes the penalities for failure also ends up removing the benefits of success. I believe in the greatest degree of individual freedom coupled with the greatest degree of individual responsiblity. I believe that removing either one of those also removes the other. I believe in teaching a man to fish rather then giving him fish each day. I believe that all of these things encourage people to make the most of themselves and results in a greater sense of both civic responsiblity and franchisement, which in turn leads to a greater success for the society as a whole.


These are the things I believe in. And these things are most represented in the values and viewpoints of the Republican party. That is why I'm a Republican.



You, on the other hand, just witnessed a situation where 25% of your party voted to uphold a decision that you've stated yourself is a gross violation of the property rights of the citizens of this country. 25% Joph. That's not a fringe group. That's what Democrats believe in. The needs of the "people" as a whole outweigh the rights and freedoms of the individual. Even when taken to an extreme. That's what you are voting for when you vote Democrat.

And that's *after* the uproar over the SC decision on this issue Joph. Don't you think that number would have been higher if they thought no one was paying attention? Again. This is what your party quietly does while you and your fellow Liberals are distracted playing with your protest signs...


You ask why I vote Republican Joph, and this is it. Because less then 1% of Republicans support this definition of Eminent Domain. More then 25% of Democrats do. To make a comparison, 22% Republicans identify themselves as belonging to the Religious Right. The "evil" in your party is not only sneakier and harder to spot, but it's got larger numbers as well. What bothers me the most is the absolute blindspot Democrat votors have about this. You don't even see this problem. Scary...
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