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Someone explain this Closed Door thing to meFollow

#27 Nov 02 2005 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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At least the whitewater investigations started out based on something that was valid. You've got to admit there were some amazingly shady deals going on there.


At least the perjury that was committed in this case had some bearing on the subject of the investigation.
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#28 Nov 02 2005 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
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At least the whitewater investigations started out based on something that was valid. You've got to admit there were some amazingly shady deals going on there.


At least the perjury that was committed in this case had some bearing on the subject of the investigation.


Already gone over that in the thread about that investigation. Different topic. My point is that at least both of those investigations *started* by investigating something that had a real need to be investigated.

This one does not. It's pure public rhetoric building by the left. Nothing more. And a waste of our tax dollars in the process.
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#29 Nov 02 2005 at 5:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
My point is that at least both of those investigations *started* by investigating something that had a real need to be investigated.
Blame the CIA. They asked the Justice Department for the investigation into the leak.

Damn liberal CIA. Buncha leftist pinkos, I tell ya Smiley: mad
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#30 Nov 02 2005 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
My point is that at least both of those investigations *started* by investigating something that had a real need to be investigated.
Blame the CIA. They asked the Justice Department for the investigation into the leak.

Damn liberal CIA. Buncha leftist pinkos, I tell ya


You're off topic. They asked for an investigation into the leak of the identity of one of their operatives. That has *nothing* to do with this closed session BS in the Senate. This topic is about opening up an investigation into false intelligence related in some way to Iraq.

Yeah. The Wilson trip and Valerie Plame are part of it, but that's just one aspect of it. This investigation is in no way the result of the CIAs request. It's purely driven by a desire by Democrat politicians to generate media cycles talking about "false intelligence" since that allows them to spin things against the Republican administration. Nothing more.
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#31 Nov 02 2005 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
As I always add to this discussion, we did have a grand summary of *all* intelligence pre-war. They concluded war with Iraq --> US less safe. Report released pre-vote. Anyone voting for the war in the senate had access to this report.

The administration claimed to have other sources beyond the scope of the usual folks. They set up new intelligence agencies within DOD. They may or may not have actually had anything. It may or may not have come from these "new" services they set up.
#32 Nov 02 2005 at 10:34 PM Rating: Good
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yossarian wrote:
As I always add to this discussion, we did have a grand summary of *all* intelligence pre-war. They concluded war with Iraq --> US less safe. Report released pre-vote. Anyone voting for the war in the senate had access to this report.


Not sure what report you are talking about. Also not sure what your Iraq --> US less safe means. I'm sure some anti-war group came to that conclusion, but I'm not aware of any government finding on that subject (and it's childishly simplistic anyway).

It's irrelevant in any case. All that matters is that the US Congress compiled a "list" of grievances with Iraq. They then voted on whether this list of grievances constituted a justification for war. They voted yes. What other information was out there at that time is irrelevant. All that matters is that list. Unless you can show me that an item on that list is invalidated because of some flaw in intelligence, then the whole exercise is moot.

Intelligence that did not have any bearing on that list had no bearing on the decision to go to war. Investigating that intelligence is pointless. It cannot possibly have any bearing on the choice to go to war. So one has to question why the Dems are so desperate to have this investiagation. The logical conclusion is that they know it has no bearing on the decision to go to Iraq, but they also know that most of the public doesn't know or understand that. So a report highlighting "false intelligence" gains them political capital.

It's a cheap stunt, and really crappy politics.

Quote:
The administration claimed to have other sources beyond the scope of the usual folks. They set up new intelligence agencies within DOD. They may or may not have actually had anything. It may or may not have come from these "new" services they set up.


Again. Unless that intelligence was passed on to Congress and used as part of their decision to authorize the use of military force in Iraq, then it is absolutely irrelevant.

Bush could have claimed to have intelligence that Saddam was running a child pornography ring. But unless Congress included that as a data point in it's decision to invade, the truth of such intelligence simply doesn't matter.

You don't have the constitutional power to send the US to war. I don't have that power. The guy on your local news does not have that power. President Bush does not have that power. So what you though or said, or what I thought or said, or what your local nes guy thought or said, or evenn what Bush thought or said is irrelevant when considering justification for war. What matters is what Congress said and thought (and why), since they are the only ones constitutionally empowered to declare war.
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#33 Nov 02 2005 at 11:30 PM Rating: Decent
www.thislife.org show number 227 12/20/2002. I've quoted it several times to you in the past. In response to this specific issue.

The senate posed the question "will the US be safer if we invade Iraq?" The answer was no.

Bob Graham, senator from Florida, ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence committee, asks *the radio show* to please ask the White House to share their evidence contradicting the grand review of intelligence.

As you can imagine, they won't reply to Graham, they won't answer some radio show.

I've probably posted this at least seven times on this forum. At least once as a direct reply to gbaji claiming no such large scale review ever took place. I always say something about like this:

I don't think we should invade/should have invaded Iraq because we will be less safe. This is not my opinion. It is the conclusion of the best intelligence available to the US Senate, pre-war.

Rumsfeld actually testified to the senate (this is pre-war) in reply to this report. I'm sure you'll find his statements quite ironic, in retrospect.

#35 Nov 03 2005 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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What the hell kind of proof is that? Some radio show had a clip where it asked the Senate about something? Or did the Senate ask them? I can't understand what exactly you're trying to say happened. In fact your entire post looks like you scrambled the words or something.


Look. How about you find a text document somewhere that confirms your claim. It would seem to me that if Congress generated some kind of official report or investigation on something as critical as whether they thought the war in Iraq would make the US safer, there should be a record of it somewhere other then your vague memory of some show you saw somewhere...


And btw. You have *never* quoted anything about this. I recall you trying to insist you had before, but it was the same vague "it's out there, so you find it" bs that you're trying to pull this time.

Provide a link and a quote, or stop trying to claim this is true.
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#36 Nov 03 2005 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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Just to highlight how poorly you wrote this:

yossarian wrote:
www.thislife.org show number 227 12/20/2002. I've quoted it several times to you in the past. In response to this specific issue.


That's not a quote though. It's not even a link. It's worthless. I'm not going to dig through some realvideo archive looking for something. You find it. You post it.

Quote:
The senate posed the question "will the US be safer if we invade Iraq?" The answer was no.


Who'd they ask the question of? Who answered it? Where'd they publish this? Did they ask a bum on the street? A stripper? Poll random people in a mall? Do you have any idea how ridiculously vague you're being?

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Bob Graham, senator from Florida, ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence committee, asks *the radio show* to please ask the White House to share their evidence contradicting the grand review of intelligence.


Why is a senator asking a radio show to talk to the White House? And is that an actual radio show? Or something named "the radio show". Maybe a bit of clarification as to what they hell you're talking about would help. Why does "*the radio show*" have this important evidence? What evidence do they have? Where did they get it? Why don't they tell Graham and let *him* talk to the White House? Is this some kind of secret tin-foil-hat thing? Maybe they wont tell Graham, but only the White House? Maybe it really doesn't exist? I can't tell a freaking thing from this.


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As you can imagine, they won't reply to Graham, they won't answer some radio show.


Who's "they"? And why wont they respond to Graham? That's the senator, right? Why would I "imagine" some unamed thing wouldn't talk to a senator. Assuming "they" refers to the anticedent "White House", then no, I really don't "imagine" why the White House would refuse to talk to a senator. Um... But then you say "they wont answer some radio show"...

So a senator asks a radio show to present some evidence to the White House instead of taking it and presenting it himself. But the White house wont talk to the senator because they don't talk to radio shows?

Where on earth did you learn how to write? Is this subject really this confusing and moronic? I'm serious here. I have no freaking clue what the hell you are trying to say!

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I've probably posted this at least seven times on this forum. At least once as a direct reply to gbaji claiming no such large scale review ever took place.


Well. You said this 7 times before. That should have cleared it up. Wait! That means you've had 7 chances to re-write this in a manner understandible to humans and have still failed.

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I always say something about like this:

I don't think we should invade/should have invaded Iraq because we will be less safe. This is not my opinion. It is the conclusion of the best intelligence available to the US Senate, pre-war.


Yes. And my mother always says that life is like a box of chocolates...

That's great. But until you can actually provide any evidence that "this is a conclusion of the best intelligence available to the US senate pre-war", pardon me if I continue to assume that it's just your opinion.

Evidence. Remember? Link? Quote? Source? Something? Something not involving space aliens and tin-foil hats?

Quote:
Rumsfeld actually testified to the senate (this is pre-war) in reply to this report. I'm sure you'll find his statements quite ironic, in retrospect.


Great! So you can provide a link right?
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#37 Nov 03 2005 at 7:37 PM Rating: Good
Ohh God Gbaji, leave poor Yoss alone. It was a simple issue, don't complicate it. Here, I will recap for you.

"They closed the door without warning the GOP got their fingers caught, and then we went to war with the French."
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