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Oh look! Halloween is now offensiveFollow
Oh noez, thread-wide rate downs! 
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
oooh someone had fun with the red button. We must have offended them. I think Im spiteful enough right now to offend even more. CJ in to you all. Think of it as a little treat before Halloween
DSD wrote:
CJ in to you all
Umm...no thanks. You can CJ in someone else thank you very much.
Go Go Gadget CJ!
*boioioioioing*
Its satisfying bumping people to 5.00 for some reason haha Asylum 4tw
Edited, Fri Oct 28 11:09:54 2005 by Lefein
*boioioioioing*
Its satisfying bumping people to 5.00 for some reason haha Asylum 4tw
Edited, Fri Oct 28 11:09:54 2005 by Lefein
NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
DSD wrote:
CJ in to you all
Umm...no thanks. You can CJ in someone else thank you very much.
phhht technicalities.
Aww thread wide ratedowns aren't very nice.
/butthurt to the rescue!
/butthurt to the rescue!
Nicroll 65 Assassin
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
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I cant believe people actually think it is ok and not a big deal, to know that kids are losing more and more of their special childhood magic. It's not that long that as a kid you can get away knowing Santa is real, and the Easter Bunny DOES come at night to leave eggs. Halloween is the time for spooky stories candy, and running around your neighborhood with all your friends. School you get to have cupcakes at each party and listen to staories from each holiday. And the tradition of Halloween is being lessened and un conciously taught to these kids, that it is an evil, unmoral celebration, when in fact in school it is only a fun time to play dress up with your own costume instead of having to wear the teachers old dress and heels
The characterization of decreased childhood magic due to the limitation of the government sanctioned celebration of a paggan ritual day is what amazes me the most, coming from you, Daz-D. Are you saying that you, as a parent, aren't able to arrange for spooky stories, candy and letting your little one run around the neighborhood with all it's friends?
Christians can't have nativities in some places because it offends the local populace, and you want it to be embraced that a paggan ritual, with it's stories of ghosts and monsters and other spooky stuff and dressing up in costumes to disquise yourself from the spirits who are coming out for mischief, be celebrated in the public schools? No offense, but you never get to comment and be taken seriously on a church/state issue ever again. KKTHXBAI
Step back for a moment and look at it with the same rightious indignation you would muster if your kid were forced to participate in the class prayer day (or feel totally left out and potentially ridiculed for not participating because of his mommy's religious beliefs or lack there of). As a kid who was not allowed to participate in Halloween celebrations of any kind when I was younger because of just such whackos, I certainly understand where they are coming from.
No, Moe. We want to have it both ways.
Jesus, why is that so friggin hard to understand?
Jesus, why is that so friggin hard to understand?
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No, Moe. We want to have it both ways.
Son of Bob, why is that so friggin hard to understand?
Son of Bob, why is that so friggin hard to understand?
Fixed and I know and rate ups for j00 on a witty retort.
His Excellency MoebiusLord wrote:
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I cant believe people actually think it is ok and not a big deal, to know that kids are losing more and more of their special childhood magic. It's not that long that as a kid you can get away knowing Santa is real, and the Easter Bunny DOES come at night to leave eggs. Halloween is the time for spooky stories candy, and running around your neighborhood with all your friends. School you get to have cupcakes at each party and listen to staories from each holiday. And the tradition of Halloween is being lessened and un conciously taught to these kids, that it is an evil, unmoral celebration, when in fact in school it is only a fun time to play dress up with your own costume instead of having to wear the teachers old dress and heels
The characterization of decreased childhood magic due to the limitation of the government sanctioned celebration of a paggan ritual day is what amazes me the most, coming from you, Daz-D. Are you saying that you, as a parent, aren't able to arrange for spooky stories, candy and letting your little one run around the neighborhood with all it's friends?
Christians can't have nativities in some places because it offends the local populace, and you want it to be embraced that a paggan ritual, with it's stories of ghosts and monsters and other spooky stuff and dressing up in costumes to disquise yourself from the spirits who are coming out for mischief, be celebrated in the public schools? No offense, but you never get to comment and be taken seriously on a church/state issue ever again. KKTHXBAI
Step back for a moment and look at it with the same rightious indignation you would muster if your kid were forced to participate in the class prayer day (or feel totally left out and potentially ridiculed for not participating because of his mommy's religious beliefs or lack there of). As a kid who was not allowed to participate in Halloween celebrations of any kind when I was younger because of just such whackos, I certainly understand where they are coming from.
Again, Moe take a lok at Halloween. Like every other major holiday that we celebrate today, yes it has its roots in pagan celebrations. But you must have missed my post where it was shaped even more by the Christian religion. If you want to look at it from a religious viewpoint, then Halloween and the celebration of it is a mixture of both pagan and christian. My contempt on religious factious still remains, largely because when in school none of the religions or beliefs are brought into the school system.
you're right. Christians can not have religious set ups on stateheld public property. Just like pagans can not, nor Jews, nor any other religious faction unless it is held on their own temples grounds. But what does that have to do with taking away costumes and fun activities for kids in school that is not imposing a belief to them. For children, naive to the clashing of religious and non religious wills, Halloween is the time of the year when all the scary things that go bump in the night could be just around the corner and it delights them to feel the adreniline rush of a possible scare. It means nothing of the pagan religions. Kids dont look at holidays through a microscope like the adults with too much time on their hands do. Who's suffering here? The kids are. And yes I can and do plan fun things at home with his close friends, but it's a different feeling of bonding when all the kids at school get to show off their costumes.
My son's school today had their Halloween Parade. The kids for two weeks made their own costumes in school. Then they had a parade throughout all the classrooms. My son was SOO proud of what he made and that he got to show it off to the "big kids". All the kids when picked up from school today, were babbling excitedly about how they got to wear their schoolmade costumes and wear them together. They loved the fact that they got apple cider and pumpkin cookies after the parade, all dolled up in their costumes". THAT'S what the kids in Newton are going to miss, and all for something that a couple people who look for boogeymen when there are none.
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My son's school today had their Halloween Parade. The kids for two weeks made their own costumes in school. Then they had a parade throughout all the classrooms. My son was SOO proud of what he made and that he got to show it off to the "big kids". All the kids when picked up from school today, were babbling excitedly about how they got to wear their schoolmade costumes and wear them together. They loved the fact that they got apple cider and pumpkin cookies after the parade, all dolled up in their costumes". THAT'S what the kids in Newton are going to miss, and all for something that a couple people who look for boogeymen when there are none.
So why are you oppposed of schools side stepping this by calling it "Fall Festival" or some shi[/b]t? At least your son will get to do all the fun things.
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Then we should also have winter celebrations and spring celebrations instead of Christmas and Easter. Is that the kind of memories you want your kid to have? Do you really want all these holidays to up and dissappear?
It's been called "Winter Break" and "Spring Break" in California for quite some time now. It's been going on since at least middle school for me. Maybe even longer. I still remember my Easter and Chritmas holidays with my family.
Edited, Fri Oct 28 13:59:26 2005 by fenderputy
Information
I find it funny that the very people who brought the holiday to the United States are the ones who are now condemning the event.
I completley understand why people would be offended if there was a nativity scene placed in the center of town. The reaction would be the same if there was a Eid ul-Fitr (Feast) display placed in town during the end of Ramadan.
My main issue is that in modern America, the Halloween "Idea" has strayed far from its roots. No longer are the dead celebrated during this day, nor are there promises of praying for the souls in limbo (At least where I come from). Its a holiday to immerse yourself in all the scary stories you hear at night, to welcome all the noises you hear in the dark. It is a day that a kid can be something else, if only for a day.
Wikipedia wrote:
The term "Halloween" derives from Hallowe'en, an old contraction, still retained in Scotland and some parts of Canada, of "All Hallow's Eve," so called as it is the day before All Saints day (observed by some Christians, including Roman Catholics), which used to be called "All Hallows," derived from All Hallowed Souls. In Ireland, the name was Hallow Eve and this name is still used by some older people. Halloween was formerly also sometimes called All Saints' Eve. The holiday was a day of religious festivities in various northern European pagan traditions, until it was appropriated by Christian missionaries and given a Christian reinterpretation. In Mexico, All Saint's Day, following Halloween, is the Day of the Dead.
I find it funny that the very people who brought the holiday to the United States are the ones who are now condemning the event.
I completley understand why people would be offended if there was a nativity scene placed in the center of town. The reaction would be the same if there was a Eid ul-Fitr (Feast) display placed in town during the end of Ramadan.
My main issue is that in modern America, the Halloween "Idea" has strayed far from its roots. No longer are the dead celebrated during this day, nor are there promises of praying for the souls in limbo (At least where I come from). Its a holiday to immerse yourself in all the scary stories you hear at night, to welcome all the noises you hear in the dark. It is a day that a kid can be something else, if only for a day.
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Again, Moe take a lok at Halloween. Like every other major holiday that we celebrate today, yes it has its roots in pagan celebrations. But you must have missed my post where it was shaped even more by the Christian religion. If you want to look at it from a religious viewpoint, then Halloween and the celebration of it is a mixture of both pagan and christian. My contempt on religious factious still remains, largely because when in school none of the religions or beliefs are brought into the school system.
So, you admit is is a religious holiday, regardless of the religion. Thank you, come again.
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you're right. Christians can not have religious set ups on stateheld public property. Just like pagans can not,
...unless you call it Halloween? thank you, come again.
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Kids dont look at holidays through a microscope like the adults with too much time on their hands do. Who's suffering here? The kids are. And yes I can and do plan fun things at home with his close friends, but it's a different feeling of bonding when all the kids at school get to show off their costumes.
Except the children who are not allowed to participate because it violates the rigid moral beliefs of their parents are are opened up to the ridicule and contempt and feelings of alienation that children are prone to. Thank you, come again.
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and all for something that a couple people who look for boogeymen when there are none.
Kinda like when they took away Christmas pageants, eh?
The arguments you make are identical to the arguments made by other groups when their holiday celebrations got taken away. What makes paggan holidays better than any other religion's holidays?
Thought so.
Thank you, come again.
Poor Moe; playing devil's advocate and you're the only person not getting rated up? I guess the truth hurts. Rate-ups for j00!
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So, you admit is is a religious holiday, regardless of the religion. Thank you, come again.
And yet we still celebrate Christmas in school. It's ok to celebrate Christmas but not Halloween? Irony much?
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...unless you call it Halloween? thank you, come again.
name a set up in your public common grounds or townhall lawn that has Pagan religious meaning to it. Uh huh. I think not
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Except the children who are not allowed to participate because it violates the rigid moral beliefs of their parents are are opened up to the ridicule and contempt and feelings of alienation that children are prone to. Thank you, come again.
if the kids parents were that strict in their own religious bearing they have the ability more so than others to put their children in a religious schooling where they would not be ridiculed but placed with other kids with like parents. It is only the fault of the parents who are not thinking of their childrens chances of being ridiculed.
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The arguments you make are identical to the arguments made by other groups when their holiday celebrations got taken away.
not quite. If that were the case than all holidays would be taken out of the schools. Christmas, Valentines Day, Easter, all are still there and steeped in religious meaning, but I dont see schools taking them away in my area. And Im not going to complain because while the majority of people may think those holidays are pure christian I know them not to be. I also can put it behind me when I know that children are enjoying the holiday for what it should represent: fun.
You continue to make your point soley on the fact that Halloween is a Pagan holiday but its been pointed out to you that it is also Christian as well. Until you can explain to me why Christians dont want a Christian steeped holiday to be celebrated in school but its ok to have Christmas and the others you're dismissed. kktxbyebye
allenjj wrote:
Poor Moe; playing devil's advocate and you're the only person not getting rated up? I guess the truth hurts. Rate-ups for j00!
no matter what a persons stance on this is they're still geting treats from me in the form of a rateup.
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Poor Moe; playing devil's advocate
The thing is, I am not really playing devil's advocate. I think certain groups in this country have gotten a bit too smug, and sometimes downright silly, when it comes to issues of "church/state seperation". Its nice to see one going the other way for a change. The theocracy in this country scares me as much as the next rational thinker, but on this particular issue its nice to see Christians calling them on a double standard. And I personally wish I could see sub-default. It says so in my sig.
DSD wrote:
if the kids parents were that strict in their own religious bearing they have the ability more so than others to put their children in a religious schooling where they would not be ridiculed but placed with other kids with like parents.
They shouldn't have to put their kids in a religious school because according to you, there should be a complete lack of anything even remotely religious in schools.
Atheist parents should feel safe sending their children to a football game without worrying about them hearing prayer, just like Christian parents should be able to send their kids without worrying about them being subjected to anything even a little pagan in origin.
Right?
allenjj wrote:
DSD wrote:
if the kids parents were that strict in their own religious bearing they have the ability more so than others to put their children in a religious schooling where they would not be ridiculed but placed with other kids with like parents.
They shouldn't have to put their kids in a religious school because according to you, there should be a complete lack of anything even remotely religious in schools.
Atheist parents should feel safe sending their children to a football game without worrying about them hearing prayer, just like Christian parents should be able to send their kids without worrying about them being subjected to anything even a little pagan in origin.
Right?
except you missed the fact that if you're going to play the christian card against pagan religion its moot since Halloween is also steeped in Christianity too.
Jophiel wrote:
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I thought schools were government based and therefore the holidays that are celebrated have something besides religious conotations.
By the time I was in third grade I had this same attitude. I hated the "holiday" crap in school. Cutting out paper pumpkins and turkeys and what not, bleah.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
allenjj wrote:
DSD wrote:
if the kids parents were that strict in their own religious bearing they have the ability more so than others to put their children in a religious schooling where they would not be ridiculed but placed with other kids with like parents.
They shouldn't have to put their kids in a religious school because according to you, there should be a complete lack of anything even remotely religious in schools.
Atheist parents should feel safe sending their children to a football game without worrying about them hearing prayer, just like Christian parents should be able to send their kids without worrying about them being subjected to anything even a little pagan in origin.
Right?
Why are people so afraid of what their children "might" hear in a public place? No matter how hard you try, your children are eventually going to make their own decisions. The best thing you can do is try to raise them properly, and show them what -you- think is the right way to live.
You can only shelter your children so much before they go out into the world. At least when they are under your house, you can show them that diversity is a good thing, and that they should want to learn about other cultures. Much better than preventing them from attending anything that may resemble a belief or another faith, then forcing them to deal with it on their own, without prior knowledge.
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And yet we still celebrate Christmas in school. It's ok to celebrate Christmas but not Halloween? Irony much?
We didn't in my public schools. I can't recall a single reference to the birth of the baby hey-suess in 12 years of public schooling. No irony at all.
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name a set up in your public common grounds or townhall lawn that has Pagan religious meaning to it. Uh huh. I think not
Schools are public institutions. Halloween is a paggan holiday. QED...
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if the kids parents were that strict in their own religious bearing they have the ability more so than others to put their children in a religious schooling where they would not be ridiculed but placed with other kids with like parents. It is only the fault of the parents who are not thinking of their childrens chances of being ridiculed.
And yet its ok for the atheist parent to get school prayer banned, or the Pledge of Allegience changed? Gotcha.
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If that were the case than all holidays would be taken out of the schools. Christmas, Valentines Day, Easter, all are still there and steeped in religious meaning, but I dont see schools taking them away in my area.
Again, when do they tell the birth of christ story or the crucifiction of christ story in your public school?
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You continue to make your point soley on the fact that Halloween is a Pagan holiday but its been pointed out to you that it is also Christian as well. Until you can explain to me why Christians dont want a Christian steeped holiday to be celebrated in school but its ok to have Christmas and the others you're dismissed. kktxbyebye
You quoted me in this response saying it didn't matter who's religion Halloween represented. j00 lose the blanket!
And like I said, I don't know what haven of Christianity you live in, but in my day there was no religious overtone to the winter or spring breaks, and valentine's day was just about getting cards from other kids. Soooo, where's the "Christian steeped" holiday to which you refer? Jews and negros get to take winter break too, for Chanukuh and Quansa. Anyone can go to Cancun on Spring Break, not just Christians (though they definitely have the most fun since mom and dad finally aren't there). you can dismiss me all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you fail to acknowledge the fact that you yourself state its a religious holiday and still advocate it's celebration in a public school, creating overt support for any religion that can claim significance in the holiday. If you still don't get it, read my sig.
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the crucifiction of christ
Always cracks me up.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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Always cracks me up.
Pithy comments and puns being aming the highest forms of comedy, I think we can say you have a marvelous sense of humor then. Kudos.
I am not stating it is a religious holiday. I am stating it originated as pagan holiday but where is the religious intentions that we see in school now? It is also became a christian holiday, who were the ones to add on trick or treating to the festivities. But you dont see Pagans hollering for a day off so they can hold their religious ceremonies? Why? because it is not a religious holiday anymore as far as I know.
Christmas in school does not talk about baby jesus. But do schools talk about the Pagan Gods for halloween? Oh wait, they don't.
And like I said, I don't know what haven of Christianity you live in, but in my day there was no religious overtone to the winter or spring breaks, and valentine's day was just about getting cards from other kids. Soooo, where's the "Christian steeped" holiday to which you refer?
And I retort back, wheres the Pagan overture in Halloween that is being passed to kids in school? Oh wait, there is none.
Again, Im not stating it is a religious holiday now. Thats my entire point! I said it is steeped in religious meaning from both sides originally. But again I ask, where is the religious meaning and stories of the Pagans? Name me one story or religious content that is being taught in schools during Halloween from ANY of the religions during halloween.
You can't.
I am mad because people are trying to get prayer in public schools, thus forcing others not of that religion to deal with it but feel its offensive that a holiday they are imposing their own ignorant thoughts of is abhorrant to be in schools when it has no religious content in the school system.
Hypocritic much?
Christmas in school does not talk about baby jesus. But do schools talk about the Pagan Gods for halloween? Oh wait, they don't.
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And like I said, I don't know what haven of Christianity you live in, but in my day there was no religious overtone to the winter or spring breaks, and valentine's day was just about getting cards from other kids. Soooo, where's the "Christian steeped" holiday to which you refer?
And I retort back, wheres the Pagan overture in Halloween that is being passed to kids in school? Oh wait, there is none.
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it doesn't change the fact that you fail to acknowledge the fact that you yourself state its a religious holiday and still advocate it's celebration in a public school, creating overt support for any religion that can claim significance in the holiday. If you still don't get it, read my sig.
Again, Im not stating it is a religious holiday now. Thats my entire point! I said it is steeped in religious meaning from both sides originally. But again I ask, where is the religious meaning and stories of the Pagans? Name me one story or religious content that is being taught in schools during Halloween from ANY of the religions during halloween.
You can't.
I am mad because people are trying to get prayer in public schools, thus forcing others not of that religion to deal with it but feel its offensive that a holiday they are imposing their own ignorant thoughts of is abhorrant to be in schools when it has no religious content in the school system.
Hypocritic much?
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