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#1 Oct 18 2005 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
The following is a cut and pasted email I just received. I would actually like to see prayer and pledges back in schools the way they were when I was a young kid. Not because I'm religious, but because there are a lot of people around me who would be better if they were religious. When we take religion away from the masses of idiots out there, where will they get their guidance from?

Quote:
Paul Harvey says:

I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue
somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December. I
don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a
lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory
of evolution.

Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be
endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer
before a football game.

So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there
reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a
God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the
players on the field and the fans going home from the game.

"But it's a Christian ! prayer," some will argue.

Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country
founded on Christian principles. According to our very
own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others
better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect-somebody
chanting Hare Krishna?

If I went to a football game in Jerusalem,
I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer.


If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad,
I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer.


If I went to a ping pong match in China,
I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha.


And I wouldn't be offended.
It wouldn't bother me one bit.
When in Rome...

"But what about the atheists?" is another argument.

What about them?
Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to
pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If
that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear
plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand.
Call your lawyer!

Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or
two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do.
I don't think a short prayer at a football game is
going to shake the world's foundations.

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other
cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our
parents and grandparents taught us to pray before
eating; to pray before we go to sleep.

Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a
handful of people and their lawyers are telling us
to cease praying.

God, help us.
And if that last sentence offends you,
well ... just sue me.

The silent majority has been silent too long. It's time we
let that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard
.... that the vast majority don't care what they want. It
is time! the majority rules! It's time we tell them, you don't
have to pray; you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance;
you don't have to believe in God or attend services that
honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your
right. But by golly, you are no longer going to take our
rights away. We are fighting back ...
and we WILL WIN!

God bless us one and all ... especially those who denounce
Him. God bless America, despite all her faults. She is still
the greatest nation of all.

God bless our service men who are fighting to protect
our right to pray and worship God.


May 2005 be the year the silent majority is heard
and we put God back as the foundation of our
families and institutions.

Keep looking up.



If you agree with this, please pass it on.
If not ... delete and God bless you .
#2 Oct 18 2005 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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I heard this when Paul harvey actually read this on the radio. It's a nice thought, and well written. But how would the masses of idiots feel if it wasn't a christian prayer that was read in school? What if it was Jewish? Wiccan? Muslim? Would you and others think the same, that it should be allowed? Or is it ok to say prayer in public places so long as it is the Judeo Christian prayers? Just helping to continue the strive for debate
#3 Oct 18 2005 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Paul Harvey wrote:
Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles
And here I thought this country was founded on the principle of freedom to worship (or not worship) as you please. Didn't many of the original colonists come to escape religious persecution?

Not that I think the phrase "under God" is persecuting, but the "This country is based on Christianity!" arguement always struck me as a profundly shallow minded one.
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#4 Oct 18 2005 at 9:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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I am not religious either. But I have no problem with prayer in school or at a football game, or whatever. It doesn't affect me in the least if someone decides to pray. I do believe everyone's gone nuts over trying to totally remove any and all religion from just about everything people do. Just another case of PC gone horribly wrong.
#5 Oct 18 2005 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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If they take that away then they should stop singing the national anthem before every sporting event as well.

God, I hate having to go through listening to that every f[i][/i]ucking game.

#6 Oct 18 2005 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If they take that away then they should stop singing the national anthem before every sporting event as well.

God, I hate having to go through listening to that every ******* game.



Communist!!!111
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#7 Oct 18 2005 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Didn't many of the original colonists come to escape religious persecution?

They came to escape persecution yes but also so they could be free to practice the (mostly christian, iirc) beliefs that they held. That adds nothing to the discussion I'm sure but I figured I'd go and point it out anyway.

I feel too that it is a bit of "PC gone horribly wrong" but I understand some of the social reasons behind it. The main reason is to prevent the "tyrany of the majority" and deny the minority's rights. As a result of this publicly owned things such as schools and the like must not allow religion to integrate with the daily routine. This provides our seperation of church and state. However privately led or "student led" prayer is still allowed in some places, notably Public Schools. (FYI: in the Fourth Circuit it is no longer allowed at Military Schools even though they are public.)

Private institutions that are in no part owned by the public can hold whatever bizare rituals they choose be they Christian or Heathen.

As far as praying to a Wiccan, Muslim, Jewish, etc prayer when I'm a Christian... I have no problem with that. I excercise tollerance and understand the spirit of the prayer. Good on them for having the brass to be in the minority and outspoken about it. For me when I was in that environment that allowed public prayer it was more about the Community aspect and the sentiments expressed by the prayer than anything else.

But... the squeaky wheel gets the grease and all that.

#8 Oct 18 2005 at 10:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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AngryUndead wrote:
They came to escape persecution yes but also so they could be free to practice the (mostly christian, iirc) beliefs that they held.
Acknowledged, but the underlying motive (to practice or not as you will) was important enough to get top billing in the Bill o' Rights.

Personally, I've no problem with the phrase "Under God" but I have to wonder at the whole "This country was founded on Christian values by Christians forced to leave their homelands to practice as they wished so we can today impose their values upon you!" argument.

Of course, the truth of American colonization isn't as romantic as the Social Studies texts would have one believe but it seems to be the version Paul Harvey is using. Or else he'd mention that most of the Founding Fathers weren't really Christian and that, for much of the nation's founding, the brands of Christianity taught would either be illegal or else the subject of a 20/20 investigation into cults. Those Puritians didn't leave the homeland because their brand of Christianity was "too nice and friendly".

Edited, Tue Oct 18 11:34:14 2005 by Jophiel
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#9 Oct 18 2005 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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The US was founded by a bunch of enlightenment thinkers, yes they were christians but dont confuse that as the founding concept behind the constituition.
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#10 Oct 18 2005 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Totally agree. Our forefathers certainly wouldn't have wanted it that way no matter the convictions they held. Like I said, my simple observation likely didn't add much to the discussion.

#11 Oct 18 2005 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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AngryUndead wrote:
Quote:
Didn't many of the original colonists come to escape religious persecution?

They came to escape persecution yes but also so they could be free to practice the (mostly christian, iirc) beliefs that they held. That adds nothing to the discussion I'm sure but I figured I'd go and point it out anyway.




I remember hearing that they were persecuted because they practiced such a narrow-minded, "puritanical" version of Christianity that no one could stand to be around them.
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#12 Oct 18 2005 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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yeah, but we also had Quakers, who are pretty badass
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#13 Oct 18 2005 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent

Quote:
Paul Harvey says:

If I went to a football game in Jerusalem,
I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer.


If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad,
I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer.


If I went to a ping pong match in China,
I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha.


And I wouldn't be offended.
It wouldn't bother me one bit.
When in Rome...



Israel, Iraq, China and Rome...

shining examples of tolerance.

#14 Oct 18 2005 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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Plus in china since its a socialist state there would be no praying at all. At least out loud.

Good to see the guy knows about these things.
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#15 Oct 18 2005 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almighty Snopes, we approach Thee in humility to supplicate Thy favor. Reveal the truth to us, that we may do Thy will, now and forever. AMEN.

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#16 Oct 18 2005 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Paul Harvey wrote:
Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles.


So then slavery, genocide of the American Indian, and imperialism are all Christian principles?
#17 Oct 18 2005 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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fenderputy the Shady wrote:
Paul Harvey wrote:
Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles.


So then slavery, genocide of the American Indian, and imperialism are all Christian principles?


As much as inquisitions, witch burning, crusades and child sodomy.
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#18 Oct 18 2005 at 10:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Snopes is almost always my first stop when I see some "Celebrity has social insights" e-mail but I took DSD at her word that he did say it and she did hear it.

DSD took away my faith in all I believed in Smiley: frown
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#19 Oct 18 2005 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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fenderputy the Shady wrote:
Paul Harvey wrote:
Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles.


So then slavery, genocide of the American Indian, and imperialism are all Christian principles?

Yep. How do you think we evangelized in the New World? It was our God or no God.

Jophiel wrote:
DSD took away my faith in all I believed in Smiley: frown

You weren't the first, and you certainly won't be the last.



This was pretty much the brunt of my view as discussed yesterday with Ambrya, that I didn't feel it was as big a deal as it was being played up to be. Oh well.
#20 Oct 18 2005 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:

Personally, I've no problem with the phrase "Under God" but I have to wonder at the whole "This country was founded on Christian values by Christians forced to leave their homelands to practice as they wished so we can today impose their values upon you!" argument.

Is that last part really a part of the argument? Smiley: dubious
#21 Oct 18 2005 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Snopes is almost always my first stop when I see some "Celebrity has social insights" e-mail but I took DSD at her word that he did say it and she did hear it.

DSD took away my faith in all I believed in Smiley: frown


I didnt say he wrote it I said I heard him read it on the radio. And yes, I did hear him read it on 1030 am about 2 months back.
#22 Oct 18 2005 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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It becomes part of the argument when said argument is in favor of placing religious imagery into secular governmental institutions under the banner of "This is a Christian nation".

The Pledge, with the phrase "under God", is still a part of the school day. While this doesn't bother me, I don't see "it's a nation founded on Christian ideals" as much of a defense towards keeping it there when those Christian ideals entered the nation as a direct result of escaping religious restrictions and persecution.

Flea wrote:
that I didn't feel it was as big a deal as it was being played up to be
Forum=4 would be mighty quiet if we had to wait for a bona fide major event before ranting Smiley: laugh
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#23 Oct 18 2005 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Forum=4 would be mighty quiet if we had to wait for a bona fide major event before ranting Smiley: laugh

As you can see, I have no problem arguing a side I have no belief in, just for the forum's sake. Hell, if we can rant about how little we have to rant about, we can rant about anything.

Edited, Tue Oct 18 13:22:47 2005 by Atomicflea
#24 Oct 18 2005 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good


I am dead set against reading a prayer before a football game at a public school. I don't even like the phrase "Under God" in the pledge of allegiance. For one, that phrase was not added until the 1950's, fifty years after it was written and the author was dead. I don't like prayer in a public school because of the separation of church and state. It is a public setting; leave prayer completely out of it. If you would like to pray, do it quietly. And comparing this to Santa and Ho Ho Ho? I don't see how that is really comparable.

I worked at a law firm that dealt with educational law; I went to several school board meetings with the attorney. A board member wanted to say a prayer before all mettings. The lawyer strongly advised that they would be sued. If they wanted to have a moment of silence, there was less chance of being sued. The best option was nothing at all. They opted for the moment of silence. If prayer is that important, go for the moment of silence.

#25 Oct 18 2005 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
BS, if they want to pray, let them pray. (Although I do prefer they do it quietly.)

It doesn't hurt anyone.

I think they should implement some simple democracy in events like football games and such: let everyone vote at the gate when they come in by buying either a red "let us pray" ticket or a blue "let's don't and say we did, I want to watch football, not church" ticket. Then act accordingly depending on the count. Anyone who doesn't like the results can always spend their days lobbying others to bu the color ticket they desire. That'll keep em out of my hair, cuz I never go to HS football games.
#26 Oct 18 2005 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
I don't like prayer in a public school because of the separation of church and state. It is a public setting; leave prayer completely out of it. If you would like to pray, do it quietly. And comparing this to Santa and Ho Ho Ho? I don't see how that is really comparable.


The problem arises when you tell one individual that he/she can't pray at school. That removes a constitutionally protected right from that person. Just because you don't like what that person is saying doesn't give you the right to take away their freedom of speech. It's not like yelling FIRE in a crowded theater. Someone praying before a football game doesn't endanger anyone.

As to the offense you might take to someone praying at a football game; who gives a shi[b][/b]t? Exercise your freedom of speech and tell the world how offended you are.

Here's the difference. If a school made prayer mandatory before a football game, that would be a clear violation of church/state laws. However, to tell a person he can't pray (wherever/whenever) he wants is a violation of his 1st amendment rights.
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