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Women in Unifrom and at Service AcademiesFollow

#1 Aug 30 2005 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
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This Article

USA Today wrote:
Abuse found in military schools
By Steven Komarow, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — A culture that devalues the role of women in uniform makes it easier for rape and sexual harassment to occur at the Army and Navy academies, according to a Pentagon task force report released Thursday.
One female West Point cadet hopeful is shown after completing an overnight, 15-mile hike with full packs and weapons.
By Todd Plitt, USA TODAY

"When women are devalued, the likelihood of harassing and even abusive behavior increases," said the panel of 12 military officers and civilian experts. It proposed wide-ranging action, from better admissions screening to revamping antiquated military rape laws.

Congress ordered the review of the Army and Navy academies after a 2003 investigation at the Air Force academy found sexual assault "a part of life" for cadets. That investigation arose after almost 150 women came forward to say they had been assaulted by fellow cadets between 1993 and 2003.

Thursday's report praised Army and Navy leaders for taking the issue seriously but said the services need to do more.

Representatives at the U.S. Military Academy in West Point, N.Y., and the Naval Academy in Annapolis, Md., said their services would use the report to help improve conditions.

"Our goal is to eliminate this illegal behavior," said Lt. Col. Kent Cassella, a West Point spokesman.

The report cited 2004 Pentagon data showing 50% of women at all three academies were harassed, mostly verbally but dozens suffering physical abuse. Tolerance of "hostile attitudes and inappropriate actions toward women" continues "to hinder the establishment of a safe and professional environment," it said.

"I'm not surprised at all, I regret to say," said retired Air Force brigadier general Wilma Vaught, president of the Women in Military Service for America Memorial Foundation. "I don't know what we have to do to end" the harassment of women by some male colleagues.

Among more than four dozen recommendations:

• Toughen consequences for men who harass or tolerate harassment, or who abuse alcohol, a major factor. The system of peer loyalty, which discourages reporting, must be changed, it said.

• Increase the number of women on faculties and in student bodies. About 15% of cadets and midshipmen are female.

• Require incoming freshmen to release high school records that would show behavior problems.

• Urge Congress to pass criminal rape laws for the military similar to those of many states. Current military laws "do not reflect the full range of contemporary sexual misconduct," including cases that don't involve physical force.

• Give commanders more authority to close the doors of criminal hearings, to protect the accuser from public exposure and thus encourage reporting.

• Add history of women in uniform to the curricula, including why women are excluded from combat.

That exclusion should end, said Vaught, adding that "we all take the same oath. We get the same pay. We should leave commanders free to use their troops the way they have to in times of combat."


And this one

USA Today wrote:
Military academies and sex abuse: 15 years of failure
Fifteen years after an ugly incident involving a female midshipman being assaulted and chained to a urinal called attention to the prevalence of sexual harassment and assault at the nation's military academies, those schools still haven't dealt adequately with the problem.

That's the sorry conclusion of a congressionally mandated task force. In a report released Thursday, the Pentagon panel found:

• A subculture at the schools persists in devaluing women in uniform and denigrating their capabilities, creating an atmosphere that tolerates their abuse.

• Records from the past decade show long periods when offenders weren't consistently or effectively disciplined or prosecuted.

• Sexual harassment and assault prevention programs are poorly designed, handed off to student instructors, inconveniently scheduled and ineffective in key areas.

• Laws and procedures regarding harassment and assault — and the victims' rights and protections — need updating.

The report focused on the Army and Navy academies and follows other investigations triggered by the 2003 sex scandal at the Air Force Academy.

The ugly bottom line: Nearly 30 years after women were finally admitted to the academies, and when women are being increasingly relied on in combat situations, too many cadets and some officers are lost in the past.

In a survey last year, more than 50% of the women at the three academies reported being sexually harassed.

The task force offered more than four dozen recommendations, ranging from tougher consequences for violators to putting more women in visible positions of leadership. Most should have been obvious long ago. But the record is one of addressing the issue only sporadically and incompletely. It is, in short, a failure of military leadership.

Despite the musings of misogynists, women are in the military to stay. Sexual harassment is, in the words of the task force, not a "fix and forget" problem. "What is needed now is a long-term, sustained effort."


Some background reading:
West Point
Air Force Academy
Annapolis
VMI
The Citadel

This is somthing that I've seen from the inside and I was wondering what the rest of you think of Women in uniform. How that factors into respect and authority. Do you feel that women in uniform are devalued?

I have no problem with Women in the Military or in Uniform in general. I will say that I do have a problem with them being at service academies in a co-educational style.

Go!
#2 Aug 30 2005 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Are these women in... sexy uniforms?

I'm not touching another topic re: rape for at least a couple weeks Smiley: laugh
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#4 Aug 30 2005 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Do you feel that women in uniform are devalued?


I don't understand the concept. How are women in uniform devalued?
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#5 Aug 30 2005 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Joph:
Good point. Should have remembered that. No, from my experience, not all all sexy. Though AirForce women's uniforms are cut to form. Those aren't bad. I think Marines have the same women's shirt. (Untucked Blouse type)

Angsty:
I don't think women should be at service academies. Thats my angle. There are quite a few reasons. They destroy traditions, shatter the loyalty, create problems, and are generally more trouble than the benifits (if there even are any) of having them in the co-educational environment like these. I was wondering if anyone had a different take on that. Or if you're a uniformed person how does working with those of the opposite gender play a role in your day to day buisiness.
#6 Aug 30 2005 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Kakar wrote:
I don't understand the concept. How are women in uniform devalued?


Don't ask me, it is somthing I picked up from the first article.

Quote:
A culture that devalues the role of women in uniform


I don't see that. But hey, they do. And they are spending tax money on fixing it.
#7 Aug 30 2005 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
AngryUndead wrote:
I don't think women should be at service academies. Thats my angle. There are quite a few reasons. They destroy traditions, shatter the loyalty, create problems, and are generally more trouble than the benifits (if there even are any) of having them in the co-educational environment like these.


So what is the huge difference between women in the military issue and the women in military academies issues? I'm not seeing one.

Edited, Tue Aug 30 11:19:01 2005 by Mylinkay
#8 Aug 30 2005 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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What if we had them dress as Catholic school girls or French maids? Would that be devaluing?
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#9 Aug 30 2005 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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AngryUndead wrote:
Angsty:
I don't think women should be at service academies. Thats my angle. There are quite a few reasons. They destroy traditions, shatter the loyalty, create problems, and are generally more trouble than the benifits (if there even are any) of having them in the co-educational environment like these. I was wondering if anyone had a different take on that. Or if you're a uniformed person how does working with those of the opposite gender play a role in your day to day buisiness.


Yeah they should stay at home and make sandwiches for the soldiers. They definitely shouldnt have access to the same training and chance for promotion that men recieve.

How can you blame a guy when a skirt in a sexy uniform saunters by while he is studying the mechanics of field artillery. She is just asking to have her *** touched by going to a mans school.
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#10 Aug 30 2005 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Not really.

The attitdue there is different.

In the military (as I see it from the outside, others can tell you better) women have been integrated into certain units with much sucess. they have the same facilities as the Men and have been around quite some time. Sort of a feature creep from when they had smaller roles (WASPS or WAVES or whatever) in the military. The slow creep and integration of women has caused little breaking of traditional units and small resentment among the troops.

The Service Academies had women cadets mandated by congress in the 1970's. The closed nature of these environments has lead to resentment that can still be felt now, some 30ish years later. The resentment is harbored in the traditional nature of the schools as well as by the "forced" respect that they must be given (as mandated by administration) rather than earning the respect as male cadets must. In the early days of this integration it was less of a big deal for men to subjugate women outside the academies and that culture has prevailed inside because of the slow nature of change in the closed community. The administration thinks the way to fix this is by "forcing" more respect on the women. This creates more resentment.

The Public Military Schools (VMI and The Citadel for example) had women's admision policy changed in 1995 with Shannon Faulkner (who failed at The Citadel). In 1996 women were admitted. The 2006-2007 school year will mark the 10th anniversary. They have had less time to change than the Service Academies. The traditions are also nearly as old. They suffer from the same problems of "forced" respect and tradition breaking. Traditions are passed down from class to class through the years. Introducing women, as I have personaly wittnessed, is done in a non-uniform way. There is an apparent difference (******, breasts, cycle) between women and men that will always be there. There is also the percieved difference (better facilites, private showers, locking doors, etc) that causes resentment. They are not "Seperate but Equal" or "Not-Seperate but still Equal"... they are "Not-Seperate and Not-Equal". Why have them in the same facilities if they are not treated the same. They also have different physical standards.

One of the largest problems I have is the proposed shattering of the "classmate loyalty" system. When you go into combat your classmates will be there, not the School... so think about where your suport will come from in a combat situation.

I have no problem with all Women Academies but the current integration scheme is pretty much a failure and destined to water down our fighting forces (would you rather have PC Soldiers or Strong/Hardened Soliders defending our country) and create deep rifts in the system. It will lead to more sexual assault cases.

Basically they have had fewer problems in the Military than in the academies. The easy fix for these problems is to remove the co-educational parts of the program. Or at least remove the co-educational living system.

Aside from that, many studies show that people in general learn better when they are in a single-sex environment. Only the best methods should be used to train our future military leaders be they male or female.

There is a difference between the workforce-like military and the school-like academies.

If they built a new academy from the ground up, with no traditions already standing, it would probably work beautifully.

(Edit: added last two paragraphs.)

Edited, Tue Aug 30 11:40:25 2005 by AngryUndead
#11 Aug 30 2005 at 10:37 AM Rating: Default
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Damn uppity women forcing their civil rights on those institutions. They get larger bathrooms and I hear there soap smells lightly of lavender.

Its not fair!!!
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#12 Aug 30 2005 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
I couldn't care less about women in the military, or in military academies. I treat female Marines just like men. Shut the fuc[/b]k up, do your job, don't be a whiney bit[b]ch, and we'll get along just fine.

The only problem comes when you have a female troublemaker. You can smack a man in the back of the head and tell him to quit fuc[b][/b]king up. When a woman messes up, I have to write up paperwork, and have a female present when I councel her.
#13 Aug 30 2005 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
would you rather have PC Soldiers or Strong/Hardened Soliders defending our country
I didn't know the two were mutually exclusive. Especially at the officer level, I'd hope they're not.
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#14 Aug 30 2005 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Thats the kind of thing I was looking for allenjj.

I wish it could be like that at the academies, but women, in my experience, don't get the same process as men... be it for good or ill.

The problem is compounded when the new officers have to make a transition from the (stupid) way that women are handled inside the academy to the (more realistic) way the real military treats them. They are generally far to cautious of the situation to do any real good even through normal channels. Once bitten, twice shy.

Bhodi wrote:
Damn uppity women forcing their civil rights on those institutions. They get larger bathrooms and I hear there soap smells lightly of lavender.


The civil rights of any person should allow them equal and same treatment, not different.


Edited, Tue Aug 30 11:50:02 2005 by AngryUndead
#15 Aug 30 2005 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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AngryUndead wrote:
Bhodi wrote:
Damn uppity women forcing their civil rights on those institutions. They get larger bathrooms and I hear there soap smells lightly of lavender.


The civil rights of any person should allow them equal and same treatment, not different.


Its only different because its not the same as it used to be.
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#16 Aug 30 2005 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
One of the largest problems I have is the proposed shattering of the "classmate loyalty" system. When you go into combat your classmates will be there, not the School... so think about where your suport will come from in a combat situation.


Maybe they should learn to be big boys and get over it. Just a thought.
#17 Aug 30 2005 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Maybe they should learn to be big boys and get over it. Just a thought.




Show us your boobs.





How can one sentence mean so much? So deep, so intriguing, so comical. It really has it all. I would have to vote it as the quintessential quote of the 20th century man.
#18 Aug 30 2005 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Bhodi wrote:
Its only different because its not the same as it used to be.


Yes, that appears to be near the definition of "different" but I'm not sure how it applies.

Mylinkay wrote:
Maybe they should learn to be big boys and get over it.


Who? The people who can no longer depend on that loyalty to make it through a tough situation?
#19 Aug 30 2005 at 10:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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AngryUndead wrote:
The civil rights of any person should allow them equal and same treatment, not different.
Isn't that an argument for allowing them into male academies, "tradition" be damned?

I'm willing to support locking doors and lavender soap for the guys, if that'll help.
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#20 Aug 30 2005 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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http://www.pvponline.com/archive.php3?archive=19990915
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#21 Aug 30 2005 at 10:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Joph wrote:
Isn't that an argument for allowing them into male academies, "tradition" be damned?

I'm willing to support locking doors and lavender soap for the guys, if that'll help.


Yes it is. The problem is that they can't seem to do it without destroying the equality. Thats why a ground-up institution would probably work best.

I do believe that if everything were the same, from locking doors to lavender soap, it would help. Every difference is somthing that someone will point out.

Neph wrote:
Show us your boobs.


Wow... perfectly timed. Also topical. Props to bhodi for the related webcomic.

Edited, Tue Aug 30 12:01:48 2005 by AngryUndead
#22 Aug 30 2005 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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So it goes down like this:

Armed Forces:We don't want no gurlz. While we are a fan of bewbs and think they should have the same rights as everyone else they shouldnt have them here. We have a century old "no girls" policy.

The Powers that Be: Sorry no dice you have to let em in.

Armed Forces: sure ok but we are gonna make life all types of unpleasant for them because in the end that is how we root out the undesirables.

TPTB: Woah thats abuse and its pretty wide spread. Now you have forced us to implement all kinds of rules and procedures to keep you from doing it.

Armed Forces:So now they get special treatment!! That so unfair. Excuse me while I goto the off topic forum on an MMO site and air the sand in my ******.

The Asylum: Quit crying you nancy. My Gawd why are you complaining when you are obviously the one with the ******.
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#23 Aug 30 2005 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
What I don't understand is:

Why can't our military training help a woman in that predicament? I mean, if they can't defend themselves properly then why are they in the military in the first place? I'm not trying to be sexist, although you can call me what you will. I still think that if they can't defend themselves against an attacker, then they won't be able to perform in a combat situation.

Noone has pictures of the guys with broken skulls or whatnot for trying to rape a soldier, here. Why is that? Is the training sub-par or are we sugar-coating the combat training for the women? I dont understand at all. They should at least be able to defend themselves if not be able to defend others as well.
#24 Aug 30 2005 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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Lefein wrote:
What I don't understand is:

Why can't our military training help a woman in that predicament?


Its hard to fight back when its instituitionalized. If you are repeatedly getting harrassed and take it to someone and they chalk it up to "boys will be boys" what are you supposed to do. Punch the guy in the nose sure but then you have just attacked your own and committed an offense.
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#25 Aug 30 2005 at 11:21 AM Rating: Decent
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bhodi wrote:
I goto the off topic forum on an MMO site

Yes. It seems to have been counterproductive.

bhodi wrote:
Its hard to fight back when its instituitionalized.


I have to totally agree on this one. Plus at this point nobody has much actual combat training such as hand-to-hand combat. And a lot of pressure is put on these women that this is normal and not to say anything about it, ever. And in most cases, especially among the types in the academies, the men are going to be very fit and stronger than the women, even though they are in peak condition as well. Pressure + Force/Implied Force.

I just don't think the way that they want to fix the problem is going to work.
#26 Aug 30 2005 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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Who? The people who can no longer depend on that loyalty to make it through a tough situation?


The obvious answer is to build some loyalty with the females in the school as well. We are capable of loyalty and being part of the team. Not given a chance to be, what the hell are we supposed to do?? Say: sorry you can't accept us - that must be our fault? Seriously. Everyone is a person before their gender. If the military that protects me can't understand that - maybe they shouldn't be the ones with guns.
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