wooot, time to get me a nice avatar to amuse people and brilliant quote in my signature that describes life, the universe, and everything.
anyways, on another note, i was curious as to what people think about an even more controversal topic:
abortion and birthcontrol.
Im not just throwing gas onto the fire this time, it came up today when my co-worker(who is catholic), told me that its a sin to use birth control. And it was horific murder to have an abortion.
I am asking the theist out there if this beleif is completely based on religion, a seemingly "life is predestined" and thus the little forming cells have a soul and your killing it? or do you base your arguement on something else.
personally i beleive that you cant take away a woman's right to choose, and on the other hand you cant be shooting babies with a 9mm because you dont want them. the logical action as i see it, is to set a medically determined date of "life begins here",(and i know itll always be a matter of opinion, but we have to put it somewhere), and before that date treat it as developing cells, and after that date treat it as life.
Unfortunately, since this is such an overwhemingly sensitive subject, no one wants to compromise. The pro-life people would have you banning birthcontrol and contraceptives(in the extreme), and consider it a huge travisty and sin to have any part of this. I mean, cant these people just believe what they want and not do it if they dont want to, do they have to come and protest around the clinics and call other people murderers for not sharing the same opinion. Im not even going to go into the psychos who bomb the clinics.
- Forums
- Cross Site
- The Asylum
- to the Theists..
to the Theists..Follow
1. Do you believe animals have conciousness, dogs, cats, dolphins.
Animals are living breathing life, yes. what they lack however, is a soul. According to the Bible, God blew the "breath of life" into Adam, and he was alive. how you would describe a soul may be difficult, but think of it this way. you know right from wrong. You are aware there is the possibility of something more than yourself, now, people may choose not to believe, as you do, but you are aware of it just the same. Animals are not. animals also lack the ability to reason, the only have instintic. So no, the are not councious.
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any? if you mean, did we evolve from primates, no. i dont.
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
No, animals do not posses a soul, the spark that seperates us from them. So no, they have no place in heaven, or if they do, that has not been disscussed in the bible. but you cant say that they are doomed, that would imply a level of self awarness that they do not have. there is more on this i can share if you wish, but i warn you it will be long.
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
God gave us the divine gift of a soul, in that way, he made us in his own image, we are self aware, we can think, reason, and love.
Animals are living breathing life, yes. what they lack however, is a soul. According to the Bible, God blew the "breath of life" into Adam, and he was alive. how you would describe a soul may be difficult, but think of it this way. you know right from wrong. You are aware there is the possibility of something more than yourself, now, people may choose not to believe, as you do, but you are aware of it just the same. Animals are not. animals also lack the ability to reason, the only have instintic. So no, the are not councious.
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any? if you mean, did we evolve from primates, no. i dont.
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
No, animals do not posses a soul, the spark that seperates us from them. So no, they have no place in heaven, or if they do, that has not been disscussed in the bible. but you cant say that they are doomed, that would imply a level of self awarness that they do not have. there is more on this i can share if you wish, but i warn you it will be long.
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
God gave us the divine gift of a soul, in that way, he made us in his own image, we are self aware, we can think, reason, and love.
Quote:
.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of it. (would have put in more zeros but you cant have words longer than 50 characters on a post)
Why not just use scientific notation, or do you think we're too stupid to understand that too.
Actually what folks believe in has been cover many times here before.
Just boils down to that for some folks Faith, is enough and for others logical proof is needed before belief in anything.
Is there a higher Being that created all we see and understand? Some need reasurances of such a being to face life. Some don't care and other find such a idea goes against all logic they can muster.
To a dog or cat I may seem like a God. I'm not by my understanding, but that doesn't prevent them from worshiping me, when I feed them. I think they won't understand me if I say they will end up in a hole in the backyard or burn into ashes by the aminal shelter, so don't give them any answers to their barking and meowing. They seem happy enough just to have food and water, and get petted when I feel like it.
To me the answer to why, isn't as important, as how. Gods are like imaginary friend to me. Nice to have when needed, but soon forgotten when you don't.
Somedays I believe in a force that is life, other days we are nothing up random matter pulled together by laws we try to understand with science.
Edited, Fri Jul 15 16:33:42 2005 by ElneClare
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
Abortion is touchy and we covered no more than two weeks ago in a thread in which im certain you participated.
Birth control on the other hand goes hand in hand with female rights. The ability for a woman to choose how and when she is going to conceive lifts her up from the burden of being knocked up and having to halt your life.
Im an advocate of birth control not just in the power it gives women over their own bodies and destinies but because people are going to have sex no matter what and smart safe sex with birth control and condoms reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies, STDs, aids etc.
The Catholic church (like most churches) frown on premarital sex or any type of recreational sex. If you are having sex and not meaning to have a baby because of it then you are the evil. Therefore they are of course not going to support birth control. If you are already sinning by having premarital sex it only makes sense to be smart about it and not be having children out of wedlock while you are at it.
Birth control on the other hand goes hand in hand with female rights. The ability for a woman to choose how and when she is going to conceive lifts her up from the burden of being knocked up and having to halt your life.
Im an advocate of birth control not just in the power it gives women over their own bodies and destinies but because people are going to have sex no matter what and smart safe sex with birth control and condoms reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies, STDs, aids etc.
The Catholic church (like most churches) frown on premarital sex or any type of recreational sex. If you are having sex and not meaning to have a baby because of it then you are the evil. Therefore they are of course not going to support birth control. If you are already sinning by having premarital sex it only makes sense to be smart about it and not be having children out of wedlock while you are at it.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
actually, i didnt participate in the other thread, just really dicovered the asylum reacently. I made another post on the subject though to get the opinions of more than the 4 people responding here.
to elne, i dint use scientific notation because i wanted to stress how small the number is, 1*10^-50 isnt really as awe inspiring as .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%
then again, neither really get me jumping with goose bumps, guess im the kinda guy that gets turned on more my graphs.. ewww sine waves.....
to elne, i dint use scientific notation because i wanted to stress how small the number is, 1*10^-50 isnt really as awe inspiring as .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%
then again, neither really get me jumping with goose bumps, guess im the kinda guy that gets turned on more my graphs.. ewww sine waves.....
bhodisattva Defender of Justice wrote:
Grats you managed to do the most rudimentary thing on a forum. Slowly but surely you are working your way out of the "crayon club"
Crayolas taste the best.
i was wondering something today:
how many people have died fighting for an idea of a god that isnt even real. and how many people have been killed in the name of that same god threw out history. and do you really think those times are over, do you really think people are not as blindly zealotous about their faith to do this all again. Im sure you can think of many "religious wars" going on today, how many people have to die before people see the truth. The truth that there is no god, that there was no god. That the prayers they pray at night will always silently fade away, and that the people that give their lives, or takes lives, in the name of a manmade diety, do so only in ignorance and a fear of their own mortality. religion is a disease on mankind, that we may never find a cure for.
how many people have died fighting for an idea of a god that isnt even real. and how many people have been killed in the name of that same god threw out history. and do you really think those times are over, do you really think people are not as blindly zealotous about their faith to do this all again. Im sure you can think of many "religious wars" going on today, how many people have to die before people see the truth. The truth that there is no god, that there was no god. That the prayers they pray at night will always silently fade away, and that the people that give their lives, or takes lives, in the name of a manmade diety, do so only in ignorance and a fear of their own mortality. religion is a disease on mankind, that we may never find a cure for.
Quote:
how many people have died fighting for an idea of a god that isnt even real. and how many people have been killed in the name of that same god threw out history. and do you really think those times are over, do you really think people are not as blindly zealotous about their faith to do this all again. Im sure you can think of many "religious wars" going on today, how many people have to die before people see the truth. The truth that there is no god, that there was no god. That the prayers they pray at night will always silently fade away, and that the people that give their lives, or takes lives, in the name of a manmade diety, do so only in ignorance and a fear of their own mortality. religion is a disease on mankind, that we may never find a cure for.
I feel sorry for you. You are just repeating rhetoric. You do not know the power of prayer towards God, and the miracles I have seen in my own lifetime. You have not personally discovered anything, only believed the lies that other non believers say. If you truly believe that there is nothing out there, then you should kill yourself, because you are just delaying the inevitable nothingness that awaits you. There is absolutely no reason why you should continue to live. What a sad world you live in.
/stan lee voice: so what have you seen, wise true-believer
Quote:
If you truly believe that there is nothing out there, then you should kill yourself, because you are just delaying the inevitable nothingness that awaits you.
eh... wouldn't it be possible to live an enjoyable, happy life and make other people happy, while we live here on earth. I thought I was pessimistic.
What is the point of happiness if it is all superficial? There is no point. You are delaying the inevitable and trying to avoid thinking about death, because you are afraid of what awaits you. There is absolutely no point in making other people happy or yourself for that matter if there is nothing out there.
Quote:
There is absolutely no point in making other people happy or yourself for that matter if there is nothing out there.
I believe that children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be
Everybody searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone to fulfill my needs
A lonely place to be
So I learned to depend on me
I decided long ago
Never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I will live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity
Chorus:
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all
I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be
And I decided long ago
Never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I will live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity
Chorus:
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all
And if by chance, that special place
That you've been dreaming of
Leads you to a lonely place
Find your strength in love
Quote:
There is absolutely no point in making other people happy or yourself for that matter if there is nothing out there.
People that beleive the only reason to help others is for greater rewards in death, are just self serving asses, and deserve the worst hell they can imagine.
18 posts
Quote:
Unfortunately, since this is such an overwhemingly sensitive subject, no one wants to compromise. The pro-life people would have you banning birthcontrol and contraceptives(in the extreme), and consider it a huge travisty and sin to have any part of this. I mean, cant these people just believe what they want and not do it if they dont want to, do they have to come and protest around the clinics and call other people murderers for not sharing the same opinion. Im not even going to go into the psychos who bomb the clinics.
While I can not speak for everyone, as a Christian, I do not see the need to ban birthcontrol or contraceptives.
The problem comes not from them, but the sin that runs rampent in society today. I do not think many people understand that the teaching of Christianity says that God created us in his image to bring praise to him, we have free-will to chose, and the purpose of our lives as Christians is to live according to His will as set forth in the Bible.
Our second duty, the Great Comission, is to spread the news of Jesus Christ, whom when accepted as the son of God who died for our sins, sends the Holy Spirit into us and allows us to enter heaven.
Quote:
1. Do you believe animals have conciousness, dogs, cats, dolphins.
Yes, because they can move, feel, think, and understand.
What they lack is a soul.
Quote:
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
None. Because that whould be making the woeful assumption that any form of evolution could be true.
(And before anyone says anything, yes I would put more in here refuting evolution, but that would take far longer than I have, and frankly, it's an argument that can only really be debated in person.) (Anyone interested should look up Christian Theology)
Quote:
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
They do not have souls (This has nothing to do with intelligence), and therefore have no spot in heaven.
(On the otherhand, they can't go to hell either.)
Quote:
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
We were created in the image of God, meaning we have a soul that can have eternal glory or damnation. We are not his mental equivalent, and our purpose (For which we were created), even tainted by sin, is to praise God, not to be his companion. We were created, and therefor cannot be greater or equal to our creator.
(I thank all that have read this with an open heart and mind, respecting you if you agree or disagree, and to any that found somthing here that tugs at your heart, be blessed in a continued journey)
God Bless
~Hanspeter
A single idea, like a single pebble, can lead one to an avalanche of greater knowledge. It's up to someone to set it in motion.
Hanspeter wrote:
Quote:
1. Do you believe animals have conciousness, dogs, cats, dolphins.
Yes, because they can move, feel, think, and understand.
What they lack is a soul.
What exactly is a soul? If all animals/insects/ect have the capacity to understand and learn, and the only difference is the soul, what is a soul composed of? Is it a measurable amount of energy? Perhaps it isn't energy, perhaps it is more like anti-matter. And all this swirling info that is put on here reguardless of its bias neither side has come up with an arguable point as to what exactly a soul is.
As far as someone said basically there is no point to live if you do not believe in God. Then why do animals continue to live? They certainly have a means of commiting suicide. There must be a desire to live. Sure they may not believe in a God of any sort but if that is the case then why do they choose to live? If a zebra becomes attacked by a lion, the zebra no matter how dismal it's situation continues to fight till there is no breath in its body. Biology teaches us that the purpose to life is basically to breed, to pass on our genetic information, then to die. You and I both know there is more than that, but the arguement that without a belief in a god there is no reason to live. If that we're the case life would have left this planet long ago. On the other hand religion(before recorded christianity and recorded judism) has been around way before swords, guns, math, science, literature, reading, writing, and above all complete spoken language. Carvings of deities of cavemen long before any written or spoken history. These things are beyond explanation. Compaired to human history, christianity, judism, islam, buddist, and even wicca are but infants that were born from the womb of humanity. History is too shrouded in darkness to make any assuption of what/who/when/how/why/and where things, events, and people came from. Religion and science have one plague that is in common... the unknown.
PraetorianX wrote:
Quote:
how many people have died fighting for an idea of a god that isnt even real. and how many people have been killed in the name of that same god threw out history. and do you really think those times are over, do you really think people are not as blindly zealotous about their faith to do this all again. Im sure you can think of many "religious wars" going on today, how many people have to die before people see the truth. The truth that there is no god, that there was no god. That the prayers they pray at night will always silently fade away, and that the people that give their lives, or takes lives, in the name of a manmade diety, do so only in ignorance and a fear of their own mortality. religion is a disease on mankind, that we may never find a cure for.
I feel sorry for you. You are just repeating rhetoric. You do not know the power of prayer towards God, and the miracles I have seen in my own lifetime. You have not personally discovered anything, only believed the lies that other non believers say. If you truly believe that there is nothing out there, then you should kill yourself, because you are just delaying the inevitable nothingness that awaits you. There is
absolutely no reason why you should continue to live. What a sad world you live in.
holy crap, this is the **** im talking about, these freaks think this life is worthless waist of time w/o their crazy gods to worship. I live my life to the fullest, i love my wife, and i dont blind myself with stupid ignorance just to make myself feel better. the only reason i even argue religion with you zealotous idiots is in the hopes that you might actually realize this life is all you have and stop waisting it on some false god. Spend your whole life judging others, praying, and ******** around in church becuase you think there is some golden gates after you die, only to loose your entire existence over some trivial superstitions. And btw, if this life is nothing, and only heaven is what counts, why dont all the religious people just jump off a bridge, it would save us "doomed atheists" a hell of alot of headaches watching you imbreeds sing to dead lunatics of old.
Quote:
holy crap, this is the sh*t im talking about, these freaks think this life is worthless waist of time w/o their crazy gods to worship. I live my life to the fullest, i love my wife, and i dont blind myself with stupid ignorance just to make myself feel better. the only reason i even argue religion with you zealotous idiots is in the hopes that you might actually realize this life is all you have and stop waisting it on some false god. Spend your whole life judging others, praying, and ******** around in church becuase you think there is some golden gates after you die, only to loose your entire existence over some trivial superstitions. And btw, if this life is nothing, and only heaven is what counts, why dont all the religious people just jump off a bridge, it would save us "doomed atheists" a hell of alot of headaches watching you imbreeds sing to dead lunatics of old.
The problem EP is that you have started a thread with the sole intention of setting people up. Jophiel caught you in the act back at the beginning, and you've completely lived up to his accusations.
You have no interest in debate, and show no real interest in having your original questions answered. You merely set the bait, wait for a response, and then explode in a brilliant display of rhetoric and flame. Here's an example:
EP: Does anyone belive in God?
Random Poster: Why yes, yes I do.
EP: OMFG you are the stupidest stupid person in the world!!! I pwn joo with my 1337 science skills! I can't believe how stupid you are!!! ROFLCOPTER!!!!11
While you might manage to incite a few people with this typw of behavior, you lose any credibility as an intellectual. I thought scientists were supposed to be open to the unknown. Isn't the entire purpose of science to find answers to the unanswered? You seem to be amazingly inflexible in your views for someone who can neither prove nor disprove the concept of God.
Turn down the rhetoric, allow yourself to realize that maybe, just maybe, you don't have all the answers, and you might one day turn into a person worthy of actual debate.
This isn't a direct response, but it is what I was reading about last night on my way to sleep. Seems relevant, here goes:
Summary:
Three aspects of religion: metaphysical (what is the world, how did it come to be, what is the nature of life, etc), ethical (how should a person live, what is right/wrong) and inspirational (how to get from knowing what is right to doing what is right).
Science sometimes conflicts with religious teachings on metaphysics (big bang, earth going round the sun, evolution of life). However, science can't really make ethical judgements (can predict outcomes but not say "good" or "bad"). And by eroding the metaphysical support for religious belief, science (and doubt generally) can undermine the inspirational certainty that in practice enables many people to live better, happier lives than they would otherwise.
Okay, some quotes then I'll mention why I'm bothering to type all of this.
"First of all, it usually goes something like this: that the moral values are the word of God. Being the word of God connects the ethical and metaphysical aspects of religion. And finally, that also inspires the inspiration, because if you are working for God and obeying God's will, you are in some way connected to the universe, your actions have meaning in the greater world, and that is an inspiring act. So the three aspects are very well integrated and interconnected."
...
"The source of inspiration today, the source of comfort in any religion, is closely knit with the metaphysical aspects. That is, inspiration comes from working for God, from obeying His will, and so on. Now an emotional tie expressed in this manner, the strong feeling that you are doing right, is weakened when the slightest amount of doubt is expressed as to the existence of God. ... I don't know the answer to this problem, the problem of maintaining the real value of religion as a source of strength and of courage to most men while at the same time not requiring an absolute faith in the metaphsyical system."
...
"So I do not think that it is possible to not get into a conflict if you require an absolute faith in metaphysical aspects, and at the same time I don't understand how to maintain the real value of religion for inspiration if we have doubt as to that. That's a serious problem."
...
"Western civilization, it seems to me, stands by two great heritages. One is the scientific spirit of adventure, the ... humility of the intellect. ... The other great heritage is Christian ethics - the basis of action on love, the brotherhood of all men, the value of the individual, the humility of spirit. The two heritages are logically, thoroughly consistent. But the logic is not."
=========
Okay, why bother to type all that at 2am on a worknight? Well, the discussion (and intermittent flame war) that I've just read seems to me to be an expression of precisely the conflict described above. I suppose I'd count myself an athiest, though one described by a strict Christian as "more Christian than any Christian" she dated. I mention that just to say that I get frustrated with the blatantly anti-intellectual attitude toward the metaphysical aspects of religion (stickers in textbooks about evolution???), and I also get dismayed with the arrogant attitude towards concern for the value of good and ethical behaviour.
Few of the religious people I know try to act truthfully because they believe the earth was created in 6 literal days. The power of religion for them is in the way it teaches them to live. The rest is a history lesson (as debatable as any history lesson). But when athiests (and again I suppose I count myself in that group) actively try to undermine the metaphysical basis for their beliefs for no apparent reason other than to prove their intellectual superiority, they get offended. And it's not because they feel defensive because they realize they are wrong and the athiest is right. To use EP's language, if God is Santa Clause, someone who goes around looking for people who believe in Santa Clause just so he/she can tell them Santa doesn't exist - well that person is unkind. Whether correct or not, the person is insensitive and hurtful.
This doesn't apply if someone is respectfully trying to understand someone else's views. It's all about the respect for the other viewpoint. And I think this discussion started turning ugly when the lack of respect became apparent.
Oh, and for the record and balance sake, people who aren't religious can be every bit as ethical, kind, good as those who have a religious basis for those beliefs. And they get just as offended when pressured to conform to the dominant religious belief (anyone who's lived in the small-town South will know what I man).
Humility of intellect, humility of spirit. Respect for others.
Oh the quotes were from Richard Feynman, The Meaning of It All, which was a series of lectures about science.
Good night all.
Edited, Mon Jul 18 02:29:06 2005 by Jehebbyo
Summary:
Three aspects of religion: metaphysical (what is the world, how did it come to be, what is the nature of life, etc), ethical (how should a person live, what is right/wrong) and inspirational (how to get from knowing what is right to doing what is right).
Science sometimes conflicts with religious teachings on metaphysics (big bang, earth going round the sun, evolution of life). However, science can't really make ethical judgements (can predict outcomes but not say "good" or "bad"). And by eroding the metaphysical support for religious belief, science (and doubt generally) can undermine the inspirational certainty that in practice enables many people to live better, happier lives than they would otherwise.
Okay, some quotes then I'll mention why I'm bothering to type all of this.
"First of all, it usually goes something like this: that the moral values are the word of God. Being the word of God connects the ethical and metaphysical aspects of religion. And finally, that also inspires the inspiration, because if you are working for God and obeying God's will, you are in some way connected to the universe, your actions have meaning in the greater world, and that is an inspiring act. So the three aspects are very well integrated and interconnected."
...
"The source of inspiration today, the source of comfort in any religion, is closely knit with the metaphysical aspects. That is, inspiration comes from working for God, from obeying His will, and so on. Now an emotional tie expressed in this manner, the strong feeling that you are doing right, is weakened when the slightest amount of doubt is expressed as to the existence of God. ... I don't know the answer to this problem, the problem of maintaining the real value of religion as a source of strength and of courage to most men while at the same time not requiring an absolute faith in the metaphsyical system."
...
"So I do not think that it is possible to not get into a conflict if you require an absolute faith in metaphysical aspects, and at the same time I don't understand how to maintain the real value of religion for inspiration if we have doubt as to that. That's a serious problem."
...
"Western civilization, it seems to me, stands by two great heritages. One is the scientific spirit of adventure, the ... humility of the intellect. ... The other great heritage is Christian ethics - the basis of action on love, the brotherhood of all men, the value of the individual, the humility of spirit. The two heritages are logically, thoroughly consistent. But the logic is not."
=========
Okay, why bother to type all that at 2am on a worknight? Well, the discussion (and intermittent flame war) that I've just read seems to me to be an expression of precisely the conflict described above. I suppose I'd count myself an athiest, though one described by a strict Christian as "more Christian than any Christian" she dated. I mention that just to say that I get frustrated with the blatantly anti-intellectual attitude toward the metaphysical aspects of religion (stickers in textbooks about evolution???), and I also get dismayed with the arrogant attitude towards concern for the value of good and ethical behaviour.
Few of the religious people I know try to act truthfully because they believe the earth was created in 6 literal days. The power of religion for them is in the way it teaches them to live. The rest is a history lesson (as debatable as any history lesson). But when athiests (and again I suppose I count myself in that group) actively try to undermine the metaphysical basis for their beliefs for no apparent reason other than to prove their intellectual superiority, they get offended. And it's not because they feel defensive because they realize they are wrong and the athiest is right. To use EP's language, if God is Santa Clause, someone who goes around looking for people who believe in Santa Clause just so he/she can tell them Santa doesn't exist - well that person is unkind. Whether correct or not, the person is insensitive and hurtful.
This doesn't apply if someone is respectfully trying to understand someone else's views. It's all about the respect for the other viewpoint. And I think this discussion started turning ugly when the lack of respect became apparent.
Oh, and for the record and balance sake, people who aren't religious can be every bit as ethical, kind, good as those who have a religious basis for those beliefs. And they get just as offended when pressured to conform to the dominant religious belief (anyone who's lived in the small-town South will know what I man).
Humility of intellect, humility of spirit. Respect for others.
Oh the quotes were from Richard Feynman, The Meaning of It All, which was a series of lectures about science.
Good night all.
Edited, Mon Jul 18 02:29:06 2005 by Jehebbyo
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Few of the religious people I know try to act truthfully because they believe the earth was created in 6 literal days. The power of religion for them is in the way it teaches them to live. The rest is a history lesson (as debatable as any history lesson). But when athiests (and again I suppose I count myself in that group) actively try to undermine the metaphysical basis for their beliefs for no apparent reason other than to prove their intellectual superiority, they get offended. And it's not because they feel defensive because they realize they are wrong and the athiest is right. To use EP's language, if God is Santa Clause, someone who goes around looking for people who believe in Santa Clause just so he/she can tell them Santa doesn't exist - well that person is unkind. Whether correct or not, the person is insensitive and hurtful.
I find christians believers to be much more a threat to atheists then atheists are to christian believers. Christians love to legislate their biblical morality on the masses. Christians love to dictate their beliefs into the public consciousness whenever they get a chance. Christians tend to believe despite facts and science. Christians tend to be fanatical in their beliefs calling it the truth with no scientifically verifiable data. Very little of christian dogma stands up to any sort of scientific methodology, but they tend to pretend like it does. Creationism is as believable as the bible says it is and that is all. Yet, christians would love to put creationism on school curriculums and teach it as science.
Also, if you look at the history of christianity it is a very dominant and pushy religion, violent and power hungry. It's the same way today, only it's more hidden behind a veil of political maneuvering and social propaganda, much of it involving the use of the term "protecting the children".
I would never attack christianity or any religion if they kept it to themselves, within their homes and churches and NOWHERE ELSE. Still, christians are pushy and power hungry and can't keep it to themselves, thus it's put me on the offensive and many other atheists as well.
I don't mean to pick on christians, but I was raised a christian until, as Carlin put's it, "I reached the age of reason", and I am familiar with the doctrine. So, a christians defensiveness, in my opinion, is based on the fact that they are waging an offensive battle and are prepared for the counter attack but just pretend not to acknowledge a battle they start and continue to fight. In other words, they pretend like they are persecuted to gain sympathy and to help reinforce their beliefs, when in reality they are and have been the persecutors for centuries.
How does pretending to be persecuted reinforce their beliefs? It creates an us against them mentality which feeds into this need to hold the other believers close and stand strong in the faith. "Embattled and persecuted the believers stand strong", while knowing all along that they are waging a war they started. No wonder Bush and the christian right get along.
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I do not think many people understand that the teaching of Christianity says that God created us in his image to bring praise to him, we have free-will to chose, and the purpose of our lives as Christians is to live according to His will as set forth in the Bible.
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2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
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None. Because that whould be making the woeful assumption that any form of evolution could be true.
(And before anyone says anything, yes I would put more in here refuting evolution, but that would take far longer than I have, and frankly, it's an argument that can only really be debated in person.) (Anyone interested should look up Christian Theology
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2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
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None. Because that whould be making the woeful assumption that any form of evolution could be true.
(And before anyone says anything, yes I would put more in here refuting evolution, but that would take far longer than I have, and frankly, it's an argument that can only really be debated in person.) (Anyone interested should look up Christian Theology
18 posts
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Christians love to legislate their biblical morality on the masses. Christians love to dictate their beliefs into the public consciousness whenever they get a chance.
Personally, if one would take the time to view Christianity, one would see that every doctrine in it is beficial, so long as you are not looking at a crackpot version. (Which by the way, tend to be the ones everyone points to when saying, Christianity is wrong.)
It teaches one not to kill, not to steal, to love God, and to treat everyone as you would would wish to be treated. (The last two are the most important commandments.)
Biblical morality, it has been agreed by many, simply provides a better basis for living life.
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Christians tend to believe despite facts and science. Christians tend to be fanatical in their beliefs calling it the truth with no scientifically verifiable data. Very little of christian dogma stands up to any sort of scientific methodology, but they tend to pretend like it does.
How is this true? Nothing within the Bible has ever been proven historicaly inaccurate, and much of the time the Bible is supported by coraborating evidence. Examples include the fact that we have, based on fact, more evidence that Jesus existed than Napoleon. Second is the Hittite culture, which was screamed as the fact to why the Bible could not be true, because no such race had been found. However, it was uncovered, and is exactly as the Bible told.
However, I feel the point you are trying to make is Creation vs. Evolution. (I say this because there is no other way for man to be Created if you dismiss higher powers) Again, no scientific evidence disproves Creation, while much does defy Evolution. Things as, vertical fossels, susbended between two layers of sedement that, by evolution, should have been created millions of years apart. Another is natural tendancy of the universe to decay into simple particles such as hydrogen. Evolution states that things become more complex, which defies our known nature of the universe. (Also please don't go into the adaptation vs. evolution argument. People and animals adapt to new situations to survive, in one generation, but this cannot be equated with evolution.)
Lastly though, this seems to be an attack on Christian Scientists. Do you realize that a good part of the Scientific comunity has embraced if not Christianity, Creationist ways of thinking? It is an attempt to discredit us by painting us all as fanatics of low intellegence, who believe blindly. Faith has a part, but I personally attend a class weekly about how to defend my faith.
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Creationism is as believable as the bible says it is and that is all. Yet, christians would love to put creationism on school curriculums and teach it as science.
CreationISM would be for an -ISM is generally means to put above all others, in this case, puting Creation above the Bible's true message. Creation however, is generaly supported by nature. There is a level of complexity in nature which defies evolution. The probability that so many tiny interlocking pieces would come into being is astronomical, and thats only for somthing small, like a bee's wing. When you look at the macroscopic, such as the system of pollination, the chances of it coming into being radomly are probably far less. Do you agree?
It takes far more faith to believe in evolution anymore, rather than Christianity.
On another note, Why is it that all other religions want to discredit Christianity so badly? They have no problems with each other, at least when Christianity is around, even when their doctrines conflict. (And here I am not talking about within countries, rather on a global scale.) (And yes, Athiests and Agnostics are just as much religions as others, they simply have the faith that there is no God, they put their faith in Science. They also attempt to discredit Christianity just as much.)
Thank you to everyone who reads this post with an open mind, if you agree or not.
~God Bless,
Hanspeter
P.S. (This goes to everyone who is willing to argue their point of veiw. Not to be unkind, but could you please study Christianity or Intellegent Design before arguing agianst them?
I could respond to many of this posters statements because I have a working knowledge of other ways, and the fallicies within them. Many of the arguments I have seen point to the fact that they have never really looked at the other side of the issue. This would seem to me to indicate you are guilty of what I am accused, blindly following what others have said, without seeing all sides and formlation your own opinion.)
"But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. For I tell you the truth, many prophets and rightous men longed to see what you see and did not see it, and to hear but did not hear it." (Matthew 13:16-17)
"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (Matthew 5:14-16)
Edited, Mon Jul 18 12:22:04 2005 by Hanspeter
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i was wondering something today:
how many people have died fighting for an idea of a god that isnt even real. and how many people have been killed in the name of that same god threw out history. and do you really think those times are over, do you really think people are not as blindly zealotous about their faith to do this all again. Im sure you can think of many "religious wars" going on today, how many people have to die before people see the truth. The truth that there is no god, that there was no god. That the prayers they pray at night will always silently fade away, and that the people that give their lives, or takes lives, in the name of a manmade diety, do so only in ignorance and a fear of their own mortality. religion is a disease on mankind, that we may never find a cure for.
how many people have died fighting for an idea of a god that isnt even real. and how many people have been killed in the name of that same god threw out history. and do you really think those times are over, do you really think people are not as blindly zealotous about their faith to do this all again. Im sure you can think of many "religious wars" going on today, how many people have to die before people see the truth. The truth that there is no god, that there was no god. That the prayers they pray at night will always silently fade away, and that the people that give their lives, or takes lives, in the name of a manmade diety, do so only in ignorance and a fear of their own mortality. religion is a disease on mankind, that we may never find a cure for.
I would hate to have to try to read one of your papers in whatever field you claim to be a scientist in, but I digress. Do you have any proof of any of this claim? Can you prove to me there is no God? I've been through this debate with Smash before, and he was much better it.
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Aude Sapere
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to allen:
when addressed with a thought out answer that relies more than on zealotous propaganda i respond with a gentle and questioning nature, and respect the poster. Its the people who post with nothing but "god is great, you all are burning in hell" that cause me to diverge from the current rhetoric.
its people like preator that throw reason out the window and cause this thread to be nothing but a "set up", not becauase i like terrorizing those poor poor christians.. its because they respond with such ill based facts and weak arguements. Perhaps you see it as a setup every time i ask a question, but perhaps its beacause the religion at hand doesnt stand up to even the basic of questions.
like this person here:
hanspeter wrote:
this guy blindly follows his faith and would be no happier than to legislate it to the masses, for the good of the people, because he sees it as the "right way". This idiot is a voter, for bush no doubt, but thats a different thread.
he went on to say:
first off, most of the bible has been proven historically inaccurate, i will list a couple examples, but if you want the entire list, check out "The book of biblical errors".
1. the bible says the earth is 6000 years old.
2. the jewish people were polytheistic before meeting the Hitites, they did not spawn from a "one god" mentallity and convert the world.
3. the jewish exodus from egypt was recorded lossely in egyptian history as 14 slaves fleeing into the desert.
just because you blindly believe this crap doesnt mean its correct.
The idiot went on to argue that nothing disproves Creation, while tons of evidence disprove Evolution. At this point i lost interest in his post because it lacked any real logic or knowledge of what he was talking about. The point is, these people are out there, they do NO research of there own and honestly beleive this **** w/o seeing for themselves. They attempt to throw down science and bathe themselves in ignorance just to hold onto their fragile superstitions.
Actually, i could not of asked for a better representation of the ignorant meanderings of christianity than hanspeter.
And your right, i do ask some loaded questions, so that only the people who have examined their faith can get by, while the idiots of the world (hanspeter), show themselves to be what they are: zealotous diseases of humanity.
Edited, Mon Jul 18 12:31:39 2005 by EvilPhysicist
when addressed with a thought out answer that relies more than on zealotous propaganda i respond with a gentle and questioning nature, and respect the poster. Its the people who post with nothing but "god is great, you all are burning in hell" that cause me to diverge from the current rhetoric.
its people like preator that throw reason out the window and cause this thread to be nothing but a "set up", not becauase i like terrorizing those poor poor christians.. its because they respond with such ill based facts and weak arguements. Perhaps you see it as a setup every time i ask a question, but perhaps its beacause the religion at hand doesnt stand up to even the basic of questions.
like this person here:
hanspeter wrote:
Quote:
Personally, if one would take the time to view Christianity, one would see that every doctrine in it is beficial, so long as you are not looking at a crackpot version. (Which by the way, tend to be the ones everyone points to when saying, Christianity is wrong.)
this guy blindly follows his faith and would be no happier than to legislate it to the masses, for the good of the people, because he sees it as the "right way". This idiot is a voter, for bush no doubt, but thats a different thread.
he went on to say:
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How is this true? Nothing within the Bible has ever been proven historicaly inaccurate, and much of the time the Bible is supported by coraborating evidence
first off, most of the bible has been proven historically inaccurate, i will list a couple examples, but if you want the entire list, check out "The book of biblical errors".
1. the bible says the earth is 6000 years old.
2. the jewish people were polytheistic before meeting the Hitites, they did not spawn from a "one god" mentallity and convert the world.
3. the jewish exodus from egypt was recorded lossely in egyptian history as 14 slaves fleeing into the desert.
just because you blindly believe this crap doesnt mean its correct.
The idiot went on to argue that nothing disproves Creation, while tons of evidence disprove Evolution. At this point i lost interest in his post because it lacked any real logic or knowledge of what he was talking about. The point is, these people are out there, they do NO research of there own and honestly beleive this **** w/o seeing for themselves. They attempt to throw down science and bathe themselves in ignorance just to hold onto their fragile superstitions.
Actually, i could not of asked for a better representation of the ignorant meanderings of christianity than hanspeter.
And your right, i do ask some loaded questions, so that only the people who have examined their faith can get by, while the idiots of the world (hanspeter), show themselves to be what they are: zealotous diseases of humanity.
Edited, Mon Jul 18 12:31:39 2005 by EvilPhysicist
my thread is way cooler.
yes it is, because the atheists are responding to your thread,which means you get fact based intelligent arguements. Im getting the religious wacks that do nothing but quote their preacher. Also, i think the last 3 pages of your post was everyone telling you that you didnt know wtf you were talking about :P.
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