very good jade, i respect anyone who questions everything and doesnt take everyone at their word.
lord xythex wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Something I like to know about athiests, why does it make them so angry to think that someone else believes in an afterlife if we all just go out like a firework at the end anyway? Is it the same feeling a bully gets stamping a childs sandcastle back into the beach in front of them?
-------------------------------------------------------------
no no, its more like telling your little sister there is no santa clause lol.
on a serious note, im not typing "condeceding dribal", i ask questions about religious premises that i see logical fallacy in and ask for the people who beleive it to justify it or see it for what it is. I cant help it that it appears condecending to an extent, the reasoning is if i say there is no god, then simply by saying that i am saying that i beleive your wrong and im right and thus any conversation i enter into is with the bias that im talking to someone "less informed", i cant change if this is how you view me and my perspective. cant anyone be genuinely curious, ofcourse you can say that im just being a jackass and pushing religious buttons, but the point is you dont know. So untill you read under this post: **** you religous people, your all retarded, im enlightened, please do not assume that is my perspective. Your confusing me with Kelv.
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EP while I agree about the whole improbability of religion and the glaring flaws in the concept of an all powerful father figure with a set of divinely transmitted rules that were not changed once in 2,000+ years.
However religion is about faith. Something that isnt rational. You have this book of rules and religion and God doesnt make himself readily available to disprove or prove his existence. He asks for a leap of faith on your part. Thats what seperates us from the angels. They know he is there at all times and have no choice but to believe in him. Humans are blessedly ignorant and are free to choose what they believe (of course you will burn in the pit if you believe the "wrong" thing).
Plus there is the whole sociological aspect in that religion ties a community of people together, gives them a set of values and shared beliefs, is a way of transmitting those beliefs. You cant come in and logically tear down the religion and just expect the people to go "oh he has a point".
However religion is about faith. Something that isnt rational. You have this book of rules and religion and God doesnt make himself readily available to disprove or prove his existence. He asks for a leap of faith on your part. Thats what seperates us from the angels. They know he is there at all times and have no choice but to believe in him. Humans are blessedly ignorant and are free to choose what they believe (of course you will burn in the pit if you believe the "wrong" thing).
Plus there is the whole sociological aspect in that religion ties a community of people together, gives them a set of values and shared beliefs, is a way of transmitting those beliefs. You cant come in and logically tear down the religion and just expect the people to go "oh he has a point".
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Quote:
One thing i like to know about people though, is after they disband their personal superstitions and realize the falacies of man made religion, is wether they still hold onto the concept of a god. I am curious if these people just have a hard time letting go of this concept, or if they beleive in god for different reasons(ie: where di we come from).
This applies to me, and yes I still believe in God, although I have heavily reinterpreted what the term God signifies to me.
One of the simpler reasons for it: it is more interesting to continue discussion than to stubbornly attack everyone else's faith simply because you have lost your own. There is psychological value in having faith in something, anything.
Quote:
Something I like to know about athiests, why does it make them so angry to think that someone else believes in an afterlife if we all just go out like a firework at the end anyway? Is it the same feeling a bully gets stamping a childs sandcastle back into the beach in front of them?
Typically, yes. The bully is just expressing his anger over the fact that he doesn't have enough self-esteem to learn to build his own damn sandcastle.
edit: i can type...really
Edited, Fri Jul 15 13:44:03 2005 by highRfrequenC
Ah, yes, the ole "What about the sad Eskimos and Aboriginies and Chinamen who died without hearing the Word?" question.
Beats me. I imagine one of several things:
(a) They never heard the word and therefore are not accountable. Jesus says what happens to people who reject the Word and that only those who accept the Word enter Heaven but never what happens to those who never hear it. I'd guess in this case they simply go to Sheol or some other non-horrible eternal slumber.
(b) As (a) but instead of going anywhere they are simply snuffed out and that be that.
(c) They're held not accountable for their sins and are admitted into Heaven as children are. I doubt it, but I'm not the one calling the shots.
(d) God's a big meanie-head and sends all the Eskimos to Hell where they suffer and cry and red-skinned imps poke them with pitchforks. Again, I doubt it but I'm not God.
Really, no one of any authority says and I'm in no place to speculate. Even if it's (d), it doesn't prove anything other than that God's a meanie-head. You can whine about God being mean but if there is a God and he's mean, whining won't do you a lot of good. Very, very little of my feelings about a Higher Power are born from a fear or uncertainity of death or an afterworld anyway.
As for why we're here... got me. But I enjoy being alive, I enjoy most of my interactions with mankind and I'm glad to be around. While I'm here, I feel what I consider to be a faith and connection with the Divine. I feel my life is a gift so I don't stop to question how come I have to be alive instead of being some eternal, quasi-divine angelic being or whatever the alternative is. And the fact that I don't have the answer to a question I don't worry about does nothing to dissuade my faith.
Beats me. I imagine one of several things:
(a) They never heard the word and therefore are not accountable. Jesus says what happens to people who reject the Word and that only those who accept the Word enter Heaven but never what happens to those who never hear it. I'd guess in this case they simply go to Sheol or some other non-horrible eternal slumber.
(b) As (a) but instead of going anywhere they are simply snuffed out and that be that.
(c) They're held not accountable for their sins and are admitted into Heaven as children are. I doubt it, but I'm not the one calling the shots.
(d) God's a big meanie-head and sends all the Eskimos to Hell where they suffer and cry and red-skinned imps poke them with pitchforks. Again, I doubt it but I'm not God.
Really, no one of any authority says and I'm in no place to speculate. Even if it's (d), it doesn't prove anything other than that God's a meanie-head. You can whine about God being mean but if there is a God and he's mean, whining won't do you a lot of good. Very, very little of my feelings about a Higher Power are born from a fear or uncertainity of death or an afterworld anyway.
As for why we're here... got me. But I enjoy being alive, I enjoy most of my interactions with mankind and I'm glad to be around. While I'm here, I feel what I consider to be a faith and connection with the Divine. I feel my life is a gift so I don't stop to question how come I have to be alive instead of being some eternal, quasi-divine angelic being or whatever the alternative is. And the fact that I don't have the answer to a question I don't worry about does nothing to dissuade my faith.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Quote:
I enjoy most of my interactions with mankind and I'm glad to be around.
Does that include guildchat?
Nicroll 65 Assassin
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
As long as I can keep the qualifier "most of" in there 
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
bhodi wrote:
----------------------------------------------------------------
Plus there is the whole sociological aspect in that religion ties a community of people together, gives them a set of values and shared beliefs, is a way of transmitting those beliefs. You cant come in and logically tear down the religion and just expect the people to go "oh he has a point".
_________________________________________________________________
I dont expect that, neither do i expect world peace by telling everyone we need to get along, but should we stop all education and just embrace religion because religious people tend to hold to their beleifs rather tightly? I dont expect for me to put up some arguements and have the entire social system of all religions crash to the ground, but perhaps i can make a few people think about why and what they beleive, and for once, question everything, to stare up at "god" and scream why, how, when! and when you dont get a response, ask what that means, and when you figure it out, ask again. Never stop questioning, its the people who say "this is the way it is, god is such in such" that bother me.
high wrote:
---------------------------------------------------------------
One of the simpler reasons for it: it is more interesting to continue discussion than to stubbornly attack everyone else's faith simply because you have lost your own. There is psychological value in having faith in something, anything.
--------------------------------------------------------------
im not stubbornly attacking, im asking. And its psychologically damaging to have faith in some things. someone may have brain washed themselves into being at ease, but instead of developing the mental strenth to handle situations, they really on this faith in an imaginary being that cannot help them. For example: a family that will not let their child recieve medical help because god will help the child, their faith may make them feel better, but it is ultimately damaging to their lives and the lives of the people arround them.
and to joph:
then why was christianity introduced if no one is held accountable for not hearing about it? according to that philosophy its just how we live as a "moral" person or not, which is relative to everyone's culture, in which case its kinda arbitrary to say someone else's religion is false.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Plus there is the whole sociological aspect in that religion ties a community of people together, gives them a set of values and shared beliefs, is a way of transmitting those beliefs. You cant come in and logically tear down the religion and just expect the people to go "oh he has a point".
_________________________________________________________________
I dont expect that, neither do i expect world peace by telling everyone we need to get along, but should we stop all education and just embrace religion because religious people tend to hold to their beleifs rather tightly? I dont expect for me to put up some arguements and have the entire social system of all religions crash to the ground, but perhaps i can make a few people think about why and what they beleive, and for once, question everything, to stare up at "god" and scream why, how, when! and when you dont get a response, ask what that means, and when you figure it out, ask again. Never stop questioning, its the people who say "this is the way it is, god is such in such" that bother me.
high wrote:
---------------------------------------------------------------
One of the simpler reasons for it: it is more interesting to continue discussion than to stubbornly attack everyone else's faith simply because you have lost your own. There is psychological value in having faith in something, anything.
--------------------------------------------------------------
im not stubbornly attacking, im asking. And its psychologically damaging to have faith in some things. someone may have brain washed themselves into being at ease, but instead of developing the mental strenth to handle situations, they really on this faith in an imaginary being that cannot help them. For example: a family that will not let their child recieve medical help because god will help the child, their faith may make them feel better, but it is ultimately damaging to their lives and the lives of the people arround them.
and to joph:
then why was christianity introduced if no one is held accountable for not hearing about it? according to that philosophy its just how we live as a "moral" person or not, which is relative to everyone's culture, in which case its kinda arbitrary to say someone else's religion is false.
I already said that Jesus teaches that only via the Word can one enter Heaven. Heaven > Sheol
I admit one of my possibilities is that the "untaught" get a free pass but I also said it didn't strike me as probable.
When did I say anyone else's religion is false? I'm just answering from a Biblical perspective 'cause you're asking about Christianity. I don't care much what other people believe (which is actually why I balk from calling myself Christian).
I admit one of my possibilities is that the "untaught" get a free pass but I also said it didn't strike me as probable.
When did I say anyone else's religion is false? I'm just answering from a Biblical perspective 'cause you're asking about Christianity. I don't care much what other people believe (which is actually why I balk from calling myself Christian).
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
EvilPhysicist wrote:
ever stop questioning, its the people who say "this is the way it is, god is such in such" that bother me.
If only I could find you the thread in the Sandbox where I tore apart a "creationist". Being an anthropology student I have all the different dating techniques repeated at me all the time.
This guy came in bashing dating Carbon dating because a new find in lava flow found dinosaur bones with a relative age to that of humans which in his opinion invalidated everything and all the science.
First I mentioned that fossilized dino bones lack the carbon needed for C14 dating and explained how carbon dating works. Then I mentioned that dating of volcanic material is usually done through K/Ar dating and the problem with this method is that if a new flow of lava goes over the old one the old flow even if it is 10 million years older is heated up and gets an instaneous date of the new flow and then I explained the science. Thus explaining the age problem and exposing his woeful ignorance.
By the end of the thread he had reverted to straight up religious hillbilly and dropped any pretentions of using science to back up his claim. I believe his final reply was that my use of "big words" that he didnt understand meant that I was somehow "wrong".
ps learn how to use the quote function your a bloody physicist for Bob's sake
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
I'm not reading any of this crap-loaded drivel (Xcept Xythex's craploaded drivel), nothing more then You getting a laugh at the things that you do not accept.
I will contribute this:
You only think in one direction.
for instance:
in order to prperly answer this question one would first be able to to completly know waht constitutes as life.
many only concider life to be carbon based for instance.
Why is that? so if there is an entity made of somthing wholly not of the universe as we know it, then we would not recognize it as life ?
anyway that's it for me, have your fun, as you'll yet again ignore any validity in waht I say and chose one point out your own context and play with.[
Edited, Fri Jul 15 14:04:49 2005 by Kelvyquayo
I will contribute this:
You only think in one direction.
for instance:
Quote:
do you believe in life on other planets?
in order to prperly answer this question one would first be able to to completly know waht constitutes as life.
many only concider life to be carbon based for instance.
Why is that? so if there is an entity made of somthing wholly not of the universe as we know it, then we would not recognize it as life ?
anyway that's it for me, have your fun, as you'll yet again ignore any validity in waht I say and chose one point out your own context and play with.[
Edited, Fri Jul 15 14:04:49 2005 by Kelvyquayo
Quote:
I'm not reading any of this crap-loaded drivel
/butthurt
Nicroll 65 Assassin
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
Lord xythex wrote:
Quote:
I'm not reading any of this crap-loaded drivel
/butthurt
but
1. Does Kelvy really have an ***? Or is it nothing more than energy mother goddess faeries that make him think he has an ***?
2. If he has an *** can he be an ***
3. If he does in fact have said *** and it excretes his waste which is made up of the same basic building blocks as himself then are not he and sh[/b]it at the same level?
4. Is his sh[b]it better than most of the sh[/b]it that gets posted here? If so does the lesser sh[b]it goto heaven?
Questions for the ages!
Edited, Fri Jul 15 14:13:41 2005 by bhodisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
taht was goodYou missed one very vital question... Dose his shit not stink or dose his shit stink to a diffrent level than others?
EDIT: Spelling owns me today!
Edited, Fri Jul 15 14:42:55 2005 by jademage
EDIT: Spelling owns me today!
Edited, Fri Jul 15 14:42:55 2005 by jademage
lmao off, thats halarious bhodi.
oh and
joph wrote
lol, i found the quote button bhodi.
whose word? his? jewish gods? hindus gods? or is all the books of the bible(which have been modified, changed, deleted, and added to) the voice of god himself expressed through inpiration or the writers?
btw, im not trashing you joph, i know your not a christian zealot, and i know your answering my question and i appreciate and respect your response, im asking this to the people who do beleive that 80% of the world is going to hell. Does it make them feel special to think that? I would think such a travisty would put a damper on their loving god idea. Or perhaps they are to insecure in their beleifs to let anyone else's ideas be anything other than damned.
Edited, Fri Jul 15 15:29:42 2005 by EvilPhysicist
oh and
joph wrote
Quote:
already said that Jesus teaches that only via the Word can one enter Heaven. Heaven > Sheol
lol, i found the quote button bhodi.
whose word? his? jewish gods? hindus gods? or is all the books of the bible(which have been modified, changed, deleted, and added to) the voice of god himself expressed through inpiration or the writers?
btw, im not trashing you joph, i know your not a christian zealot, and i know your answering my question and i appreciate and respect your response, im asking this to the people who do beleive that 80% of the world is going to hell. Does it make them feel special to think that? I would think such a travisty would put a damper on their loving god idea. Or perhaps they are to insecure in their beleifs to let anyone else's ideas be anything other than damned.
Edited, Fri Jul 15 15:29:42 2005 by EvilPhysicist
EvilPhysicist wrote:
oh and
joph wrote
Quote:
already said that Jesus teaches that only via the Word can one enter Heaven. Heaven > Sheol
lol, i found the quote button bhodi.
Now lets see if you can take the next step and figure out how I got your name to appear in the quote.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
The Word. Capital "W". Jesus's word. The Gospel.
If you think all the writings of the Bible are appreciably different than before, go for it. Personally I think something is always lost in translation but most people wildly overstate how much the Scriptures have been altered and comparisons to ancient suriving texts tend to bear this out. On the other hand, my own readings include all sorts of apocryphal, pseudipigraphical and other extra-scriptural writings so it's not as if I stick with the Big Sixty-Six anyway.
I'm not following how having a majority fail to reach Heaven disproves anything. Jesus teaches that it'll be a thin minority to enter the Kingdom. On the other hand, that's largely because most people will reject the Word. That doesn't really make God "unloving" if he gives you the chance to do something, warns you of the consequences of not doing it and then you make the decision to turn it down.
Edited, Fri Jul 15 15:40:08 2005 by Jophiel
If you think all the writings of the Bible are appreciably different than before, go for it. Personally I think something is always lost in translation but most people wildly overstate how much the Scriptures have been altered and comparisons to ancient suriving texts tend to bear this out. On the other hand, my own readings include all sorts of apocryphal, pseudipigraphical and other extra-scriptural writings so it's not as if I stick with the Big Sixty-Six anyway.
I'm not following how having a majority fail to reach Heaven disproves anything. Jesus teaches that it'll be a thin minority to enter the Kingdom. On the other hand, that's largely because most people will reject the Word. That doesn't really make God "unloving" if he gives you the chance to do something, warns you of the consequences of not doing it and then you make the decision to turn it down.
Edited, Fri Jul 15 15:40:08 2005 by Jophiel
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
hmm, taking me more than 30 seconds to figure out and im at work, mind sharing the knowledge? (first rule of physics, if you dont know, ask)
Edited, Fri Jul 15 15:49:55 2005 by EvilPhysicist
Edited, Fri Jul 15 15:49:55 2005 by EvilPhysicist
EvilPhysicist wrote:
[Bhodi wrote] testing, 1, 2, 3[/Bhodi wrote]
Edited, Fri Jul 15 15:42:45 2005 by EvilPhysicist
Edited, Fri Jul 15 15:42:45 2005 by EvilPhysicist
Well +2 bhodi but still wrong. Keep trying scientist.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
just ask god to help you figure it out.
and wehn you figure it out tell people god helped you and they can't prove you wrong
and wehn you figure it out tell people god helped you and they can't prove you wrong
Kelvyquayo the Hand wrote:
just ask god to help you figure it out.
and wehn you figure it out tell people god helped you and they can't prove you wrong
and wehn you figure it out tell people god helped you and they can't prove you wrong
What, are you praying for a screwdriver or something?
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
lol, ya , thats the pain in the *** thing about being a scientist, say you know something and people question you as a scientist, say you dont know something and people say "hey, your a scientist, figure it out"
EvilPhysicist wrote:
lol, ya , thats the pain in the *** thing about being a scientist, say you know something and people question you as a scientist, say you dont know something and people say "hey, your a scientist, figure it out"
and btw, i figured it out :P
Scientist wrote:
EvilPhysicist wrote:
lol, ya , thats the pain in the *** thing about being a scientist, say you know something and people question you as a scientist, say you dont know something and people say "hey, your a scientist, figure it out"
and btw, i figured it out :P
Grats you managed to do the most rudimentary thing on a forum. Slowly but surely you are working your way out of the "crayon club"
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
1. Do you believe animals have conciousness, dogs, cats, dolphins.
------------------
All signs point to yes
-
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
------------------
We are an evolved primate. Any deity could have set forth things in motion and left us to fend for ourselves.
-
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
------------------
Who among us can speak for creatures that have almost no communication with us?
-
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
------------------
It would be a bold claim from anyone to have "divine genius". In fact, as a skeptic, I would doubt anyone who could make any claim of our relevence to a higher being.
disclaimer: technically I am a Deist
Edited, Fri Jul 15 16:32:06 2005 by Lefein
------------------
All signs point to yes
-
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
------------------
We are an evolved primate. Any deity could have set forth things in motion and left us to fend for ourselves.
-
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
------------------
Who among us can speak for creatures that have almost no communication with us?
-
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
------------------
It would be a bold claim from anyone to have "divine genius". In fact, as a skeptic, I would doubt anyone who could make any claim of our relevence to a higher being.
disclaimer: technically I am a Deist
Edited, Fri Jul 15 16:32:06 2005 by Lefein
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