To all the religious people out there, i have a question. Since there has been a rather long debate on conciousness, im asking where you draw the line at conciousness.
1. Do you believe animals have conciousness, dogs, cats, dolphins.
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
if you havent read any posts, im an atheist, but am curious as to your perspective, if given in an intelligent manner, sorry kelv.
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I am obviously not a Bible thumper, Im not baptised though I did endure Catholic school from junior kindergarten to grade 13.
1. Do you believe animals have conciousness, dogs, cats, dolphins.
Personal preference will differ for everyone but technically only those beings baptised can enter heaven. Even biblical figures before the birth of Christ who were not baptised were in purgatory or in Dantes Inferno on the outermost ring of Hell. So while the fact that Fluffy has a soul is debatable if they are not baptized they aint getting past the Saint Pete and the Pearly Gates.
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
As a university student that just finished up his 3rd year in Anthropology primates are our relatives and we are descended from a common ancestor, though our paths have diverged quite a bit in the 6-10 million years. There is clear and overwhelming genetic and fossil evidence to prove this. However the exact line of descent and how certain portions of the record fall into the ladder can be disputed. Ergaster or Erectus for example.
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
I feel I answered this adeqautely in the first part
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
He made man in his image not necessarily as a companion. He made us to be
Genesis Chapter 1 Verses 26-28 "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
The aspect of himself might be the freewill, the ability to invent and create, dominion over the world. However you interpret it. However its clear that he did not create an exact image on par with himself but rather imbued humanity with the essence. At least according to scripture.[/i]
Edited, Fri Jul 15 00:04:07 2005 by bhodisattva
1. Do you believe animals have conciousness, dogs, cats, dolphins.
Personal preference will differ for everyone but technically only those beings baptised can enter heaven. Even biblical figures before the birth of Christ who were not baptised were in purgatory or in Dantes Inferno on the outermost ring of Hell. So while the fact that Fluffy has a soul is debatable if they are not baptized they aint getting past the Saint Pete and the Pearly Gates.
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
As a university student that just finished up his 3rd year in Anthropology primates are our relatives and we are descended from a common ancestor, though our paths have diverged quite a bit in the 6-10 million years. There is clear and overwhelming genetic and fossil evidence to prove this. However the exact line of descent and how certain portions of the record fall into the ladder can be disputed. Ergaster or Erectus for example.
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
I feel I answered this adeqautely in the first part
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
He made man in his image not necessarily as a companion. He made us to be
Genesis Chapter 1 Verses 26-28 "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
The aspect of himself might be the freewill, the ability to invent and create, dominion over the world. However you interpret it. However its clear that he did not create an exact image on par with himself but rather imbued humanity with the essence. At least according to scripture.[/i]
Edited, Fri Jul 15 00:04:07 2005 by bhodisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
bhodisattva Defender of Justice wrote:
I am obviously not a Bible thumper, Im not baptised though I did endure Catholic school from junior kindergarten to grade 13.
1. Do you believe animals have conciousness, dogs, cats, dolphins.
Personal preference will differ for everyone but technically only those beings baptised can enter heaven. Even biblical figures before the birth of Christ who were not baptised were in purgatory or in Dantes Inferno on the outermost ring of Hell. So while the fact that Fluffy has a soul is debatable if they are not baptized they aint getting past the Saint Pete and the Pearly Gates.
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
As a university student that just finished up his 3rd year in Anthropology primates are our relatives and we are descended from a common ancestor, though our paths have diverged quite a bit in the 6-10 million years. There is clear and overwhelming genetic and fossil evidence to prove this. However the exact line of descent and how certain portions of the record fall into the ladder can be disputed. Ergaster or Erectus for example.
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
I feel I answered this adeqautely in the first part
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
He made man in his image not necessarily as a companion. He made us to be
Genesis Chapter 1 Verses 26-28 "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
The aspect of himself might be the freewill, the ability to invent and create, dominion over the world. However you interpret it. However its clear that he did not create an exact image on par with himself but rather imbued humanity with the essence. At least according to scripture.[/i]
Edited, Fri Jul 15 00:04:07 2005 by bhodisattva
1. Do you believe animals have conciousness, dogs, cats, dolphins.
Personal preference will differ for everyone but technically only those beings baptised can enter heaven. Even biblical figures before the birth of Christ who were not baptised were in purgatory or in Dantes Inferno on the outermost ring of Hell. So while the fact that Fluffy has a soul is debatable if they are not baptized they aint getting past the Saint Pete and the Pearly Gates.
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
As a university student that just finished up his 3rd year in Anthropology primates are our relatives and we are descended from a common ancestor, though our paths have diverged quite a bit in the 6-10 million years. There is clear and overwhelming genetic and fossil evidence to prove this. However the exact line of descent and how certain portions of the record fall into the ladder can be disputed. Ergaster or Erectus for example.
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
I feel I answered this adeqautely in the first part
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
He made man in his image not necessarily as a companion. He made us to be
Genesis Chapter 1 Verses 26-28 "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
The aspect of himself might be the freewill, the ability to invent and create, dominion over the world. However you interpret it. However its clear that he did not create an exact image on par with himself but rather imbued humanity with the essence. At least according to scripture.[/i]
Edited, Fri Jul 15 00:04:07 2005 by bhodisattva
This guy is smart I like him :D
I’m board waiting for the dryer to buzz, so I’ll share my opinion.
Keep in mind I am using this as my definition consciousness:
1. An alert cognitive state in which you are aware of yourself and your situation
2. The state of awareness of the self and the environment
Q. Do you believe animals have consciousness?
A. In a word yes. Example, my dog knows I’m going to beat its *** if it ***** in the house. The dog is aware an *** kicking will accompany its decision.
Q. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
A. I have an open mind to evolution. Do I think we are in any way derived from any other animal? I actuality don’t know, but would not discard it.
Q. If you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? Or are they doomed a temporary existence for being less intelligent?
A. Who’s to say we are more intelligent. I know some dumb people wondering on the face of this rock. Will they or lesser animals of intellect make it to “heaven� This is not my decision to make..
Q. IF god created us as companions, would that not mean that our consciousness is on par with his? Or are we just pets.
A. Truthfully, I can not answer you question, I’m not God.
Keep in mind I am using this as my definition consciousness:
1. An alert cognitive state in which you are aware of yourself and your situation
2. The state of awareness of the self and the environment
Q. Do you believe animals have consciousness?
A. In a word yes. Example, my dog knows I’m going to beat its *** if it ***** in the house. The dog is aware an *** kicking will accompany its decision.
Q. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
A. I have an open mind to evolution. Do I think we are in any way derived from any other animal? I actuality don’t know, but would not discard it.
Q. If you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? Or are they doomed a temporary existence for being less intelligent?
A. Who’s to say we are more intelligent. I know some dumb people wondering on the face of this rock. Will they or lesser animals of intellect make it to “heaven� This is not my decision to make..
Q. IF god created us as companions, would that not mean that our consciousness is on par with his? Or are we just pets.
A. Truthfully, I can not answer you question, I’m not God.
EvilPhysicist wrote:
To all the religious people out there, i have a question. Since there has been a rather long debate on conciousness, im asking where you draw the line at conciousness.
1. Do you believe animals have conciousness, dogs, cats, dolphins.
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
if you havent read any posts, im an atheist, but am curious as to your perspective, if given in an intelligent manner, sorry kelv.
1. Do you believe animals have conciousness, dogs, cats, dolphins.
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
if you havent read any posts, im an atheist, but am curious as to your perspective, if given in an intelligent manner, sorry kelv.
Hmmm.. a smart poster what a concept. Just do me a small favor. Stop using the ffxi ^^ crap. It discredits your posts for me.
Thanks in advance. ^^
why beat around the bush?
"To the Retards.."
1. How retarded are you?
2. Do you think you are as retarded as I think you are?
3. IF you say you are not retarded, then why do you not see things like I do?
4. Last but not least: you're all fu[b][/b]cking retards.
if you havent read any of my posts, I know for a fact that my view is right and you are retarded, sorry ******.
EP might as well have wrote:
"To the Retards.."
1. How retarded are you?
2. Do you think you are as retarded as I think you are?
3. IF you say you are not retarded, then why do you not see things like I do?
4. Last but not least: you're all fu[b][/b]cking retards.
if you havent read any of my posts, I know for a fact that my view is right and you are retarded, sorry ******.
1. Do you believe animals have conciousness, dogs, cats, dolphins.
I believe that some animals can perhaps "think" at a higher than instinctual level. I don't know if they study philosophy or anything or are "self-aware". Perhaps dolphins or higher primates have self-awareness, I doubt canines and I certainly doubt felines. I like cats more than dogs but I accept that cats live more on an instinctual level.
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
As Bhodi said, I think we diverged a bajillion years ago. So we're not exactly cousins to modern primates or anything but we came from a common ancestor.
3. If you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
"Doomed" is a loaded term. You seem content thinking there's no afterlife for you, no? Aside from Disney cartoons, I don't think any Christian theologian believes that there is an afterlife from fauna. Your milage may vary for other faiths.
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets.
Again, a loaded question but Bhodi already answered it.
I believe that some animals can perhaps "think" at a higher than instinctual level. I don't know if they study philosophy or anything or are "self-aware". Perhaps dolphins or higher primates have self-awareness, I doubt canines and I certainly doubt felines. I like cats more than dogs but I accept that cats live more on an instinctual level.
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
As Bhodi said, I think we diverged a bajillion years ago. So we're not exactly cousins to modern primates or anything but we came from a common ancestor.
3. If you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
"Doomed" is a loaded term. You seem content thinking there's no afterlife for you, no? Aside from Disney cartoons, I don't think any Christian theologian believes that there is an afterlife from fauna. Your milage may vary for other faiths.
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our conciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets.
Again, a loaded question but Bhodi already answered it.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Ecclesiastes 3 wrote:
18 I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts. 19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down to the earth?
Nicroll 65 Assassin
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
Judaic perceptions of the afterlife in the Old Testament were considerably different than Christian ones. Most notably, there wasn't a belief in Heaven as a destination. There was obviously a belief in Heaven as a place where God resided and a few choice folks were taken up there but 99.99% of the population would live, die and then go to Sheol regardless of their deeds in life. Sheol is/was just a grey nothingness for all intents. Like Purgatory but without all the fun 
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
nice quote lord Xythex,
kelv, unintelligent bias bable yet again.
Bhodi, interesting perspective, what are your beliefs on purgatory, i havent met a baptist who believed in it. Typically the baptist i meet, (and how i was), believe in only heaven and hell.
My question really is, since we evolved, and thus are basically brothers and sisters to the animals of this planet, at what point in the evolutionary path did humanity gain souls. For if we had them from the beginning, then all live has a soul, since we all evolved from the same goop. Or, perhaps limiting it a bit, primates, who are extremely close to us genetically, are they denied the right to immortallity simply for being on the side of the genetic tree and failed to make that one change.
I just have a hard time seperating us from animals with such absolution, when its clear we hold a common heritage.
Not to mention, the idea of "going to heaven" didnt really come about till later in the new testament, untill then man and beast were treated the same, glorified pets and animals.
kelv, unintelligent bias bable yet again.
Bhodi, interesting perspective, what are your beliefs on purgatory, i havent met a baptist who believed in it. Typically the baptist i meet, (and how i was), believe in only heaven and hell.
My question really is, since we evolved, and thus are basically brothers and sisters to the animals of this planet, at what point in the evolutionary path did humanity gain souls. For if we had them from the beginning, then all live has a soul, since we all evolved from the same goop. Or, perhaps limiting it a bit, primates, who are extremely close to us genetically, are they denied the right to immortallity simply for being on the side of the genetic tree and failed to make that one change.
I just have a hard time seperating us from animals with such absolution, when its clear we hold a common heritage.
Not to mention, the idea of "going to heaven" didnt really come about till later in the new testament, untill then man and beast were treated the same, glorified pets and animals.
Quote:
untill then man and beast were treated the same, glorified pets and animals
Again, you're pretending to ask "innocent" questions but it's a very thin guise covering your obvious biases and contempt.
If we evolved, was there a "cut off" for having a soul? Does it matter? We've already established that the Old Testament Jews didn't believe in an eternal conscious afterlife so why claim that animals are "doomed" if they don't go to Heaven?
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Ecclesiastes is by far my favorite book of the bible, but I don't understand how it made the canon as many of it's themes don't really seem to fit as well with the rest of the bible as some other books. The author really doesn't rule out an ascent to heaven, but he just states that we cannot know what happens
Ecclesiastes 3 wrote:
11 He has made everything beautiful in its time; also he has put eternity into man's mind, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.
Nicroll 65 Assassin
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
so your saying that people didnt have souls till after the new testament joph?
and im not "pretending to ask innocent questions", im seriously curious about what people think about these subjects, i may debate them, but thats only to make them more clear.
Besides, even if god did give man dominion of animals, wouldnt that just make us the best animal, but still pets in comparison to an infinite multidimensional superbeing with the power of the unverse in his pinky.
and here is another one: do you believe in life on other planets? and if so did the same biblical stuff happen there?
and im not "pretending to ask innocent questions", im seriously curious about what people think about these subjects, i may debate them, but thats only to make them more clear.
Besides, even if god did give man dominion of animals, wouldnt that just make us the best animal, but still pets in comparison to an infinite multidimensional superbeing with the power of the unverse in his pinky.
and here is another one: do you believe in life on other planets? and if so did the same biblical stuff happen there?
You ask a lot of questions that cannot be answered.
"Did all this happen on another planet?"
Dont know. Have no way of knowing.
"Do animals have the same afterlife/destiny/etc as mankind?"
Dont know. Have no way of knowing.
"Are we just pets?"
What would you call it? I think "pets" is rather a derogatory misrepresentation of us as a people.
-Nagafen
"Did all this happen on another planet?"
Dont know. Have no way of knowing.
"Do animals have the same afterlife/destiny/etc as mankind?"
Dont know. Have no way of knowing.
"Are we just pets?"
What would you call it? I think "pets" is rather a derogatory misrepresentation of us as a people.
-Nagafen
Quote:
I think "pets" is rather a derogatory misrepresentation of us as a people.
But there are people who enjoy being called a pet.
EvilPhysicist wrote:
so your saying that people didnt have souls till after the new testament joph?
Quote:
and im not "pretending to ask innocent questions", im seriously curious about what people think about these subjects, i may debate them, but thats only to make them more clear.
Quote:
Besides, even if god did give man dominion of animals, wouldnt that just make us the best animal, but still pets in comparison to an infinite multidimensional superbeing with the power of the unverse in his pinky.
Quote:
and here is another one: do you believe in life on other planets? and if so did the same biblical stuff happen there?
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
There are areas science says nothing about. There are others where there is considerable uncertainity.
To fill these with religion and gain a benefit, say psychologically, from it *is* a rational choice.
To reject religion as a whole is unscientific.
To fill these with religion and gain a benefit, say psychologically, from it *is* a rational choice.
To reject religion as a whole is unscientific.
joph quoted and said:
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and im not "pretending to ask innocent questions", im seriously curious about what people think about these subjects, i may debate them, but thats only to make them more clear.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then you're exceedingly poor at asking questions that are not loaded and leading. Which would seem a handicap for someone in the sciences.
hmm, well joph, perhaps it is the questions that are most senstive that i ask for a reason. For two reasons actually, to understand what you think about it, and if you havent thought about it, get you to think about it.
joph also quoted and said:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and here is another one: do you believe in life on other planets? and if so did the same biblical stuff happen there?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there's probably at least bacterial life on other planets. I think the chance of us finding sentient life is so low that I don't spend much time worrying about the theological impact.
hmm, i find a large fallacy in this. For one, the "chance of sentient life is so low" is extremely ofbase with current antronomical data. There was a quote from "Contact" (book and movie) that i liked alot: Basically, due to the number of stars out there, if only 1 in a million of them had planets in their disks (which current studies show a hell of alot more than that do), and only 1 in a million of those planets had life, and even 1 in a million of those planets that had life had life that evolved to a sentient form, then the universe would be OVERFLOWING with sentient life. And if you go along the basic premis that life will happen where and when the means are made available(the correct chemicals are in order and all that jazz), and conceed that life does evolve, then thats to say that sentient life is more than probable, its down right certain.
Its actually very improbable that we are the only sentient beings in the universe.
But, as stated before, this would not disprove god, if i wanted to beleive in a god, i could assume that he created the universe and saw fit to use all of it instead of .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of it. (would have put in more zeros but you cant have words longer than 50 characters on a post)
This does through a damper in modern religion, which is one of many reasons i dont beleive in christianity, or any other major religion, (not counting historical evidence).
One thing i like to know about people though, is after they disband their personal superstitions and realize the falacies of man made religion, is wether they still hold onto the concept of a god. I am curious if these people just have a hard time letting go of this concept, or if they beleive in god for different reasons(ie: where di we come from).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and im not "pretending to ask innocent questions", im seriously curious about what people think about these subjects, i may debate them, but thats only to make them more clear.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then you're exceedingly poor at asking questions that are not loaded and leading. Which would seem a handicap for someone in the sciences.
hmm, well joph, perhaps it is the questions that are most senstive that i ask for a reason. For two reasons actually, to understand what you think about it, and if you havent thought about it, get you to think about it.
joph also quoted and said:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and here is another one: do you believe in life on other planets? and if so did the same biblical stuff happen there?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there's probably at least bacterial life on other planets. I think the chance of us finding sentient life is so low that I don't spend much time worrying about the theological impact.
hmm, i find a large fallacy in this. For one, the "chance of sentient life is so low" is extremely ofbase with current antronomical data. There was a quote from "Contact" (book and movie) that i liked alot: Basically, due to the number of stars out there, if only 1 in a million of them had planets in their disks (which current studies show a hell of alot more than that do), and only 1 in a million of those planets had life, and even 1 in a million of those planets that had life had life that evolved to a sentient form, then the universe would be OVERFLOWING with sentient life. And if you go along the basic premis that life will happen where and when the means are made available(the correct chemicals are in order and all that jazz), and conceed that life does evolve, then thats to say that sentient life is more than probable, its down right certain.
Its actually very improbable that we are the only sentient beings in the universe.
But, as stated before, this would not disprove god, if i wanted to beleive in a god, i could assume that he created the universe and saw fit to use all of it instead of .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of it. (would have put in more zeros but you cant have words longer than 50 characters on a post)
This does through a damper in modern religion, which is one of many reasons i dont beleive in christianity, or any other major religion, (not counting historical evidence).
One thing i like to know about people though, is after they disband their personal superstitions and realize the falacies of man made religion, is wether they still hold onto the concept of a god. I am curious if these people just have a hard time letting go of this concept, or if they beleive in god for different reasons(ie: where di we come from).
When I say "us", I mean the chance of Earth contacting sentient, intelligent life in my lifetime. I doubt it'll occur. If little green men land next week, I'll have to consider their theological impact. While they're hypothetical, it's not really worth the exercise.
Whether deliberately or not, you're missing the point. The question:
if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
for instance implies that if animals are not admitted into Heaven, they are "doomed" which is automatically throwing a negative light on God and making a judgement before the question is even answered. As I said, your questions are biased and leading from the start. It's not that you're asking sensitive or edgy questions, you're just aksing poorly worded ones that ooze your own bias and show a complete lack of objectivity.
Quote:
hmm, well joph, perhaps it is the questions that are most senstive that i ask for a reason. For two reasons actually, to understand what you think about it, and if you havent thought about it, get you to think about it.
if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existance for being less intelligent?
for instance implies that if animals are not admitted into Heaven, they are "doomed" which is automatically throwing a negative light on God and making a judgement before the question is even answered. As I said, your questions are biased and leading from the start. It's not that you're asking sensitive or edgy questions, you're just aksing poorly worded ones that ooze your own bias and show a complete lack of objectivity.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
well, your right, the chances of us finding it in our lifetime is low, but my point is the same if its pretty much certain that sentient life is out there, how does that effect your theological debates?
and as for "doomed", isnt that what you are if your not going to heaven, or do you like to sugarcoat it?
If you believe in god, and beleive in heaven and hell, then if they dont go to heaven they are either doomed to an enternal life in hell, or just simply die and nothing happens.
A question for you joph, taking away the manmade religion, would you still beleive in god, and why?
also, what is your extent of belief in manmade religion
and as for "doomed", isnt that what you are if your not going to heaven, or do you like to sugarcoat it?
If you believe in god, and beleive in heaven and hell, then if they dont go to heaven they are either doomed to an enternal life in hell, or just simply die and nothing happens.
A question for you joph, taking away the manmade religion, would you still beleive in god, and why?
also, what is your extent of belief in manmade religion
It's a safe bet that if the bunnies and squirrels and ocelots aren't eligible for the Pearly Gates, they're not thrown into the burning lake of fire either. If dying and ending your existance "doomed"? Matter of perception, I guess. I doubt the ocelots are pissed about it.
As it stands, the chance of alien contact is about equal to the chance of Isis appearing before me, decrying belief in Jehovah. I refuse to speculate on what I'd do then either. The "certainty" of sentient life is still hypothetical. Show me intelligent alien life and I'll worry about its spiritual impact. Ramble on about probablity and I'll say "that's nice". Just because you'd like for me to develop some thoery on it now doesn't mean I have any onus to do so. Learn to live with disappointment.
Another poor question. If someone has faith in Christianity, Judiasm, Islam, whatever then it's a good bet they believe their religion is divinely inspired and not "man made" as you imply it.
As it stands, the chance of alien contact is about equal to the chance of Isis appearing before me, decrying belief in Jehovah. I refuse to speculate on what I'd do then either. The "certainty" of sentient life is still hypothetical. Show me intelligent alien life and I'll worry about its spiritual impact. Ramble on about probablity and I'll say "that's nice". Just because you'd like for me to develop some thoery on it now doesn't mean I have any onus to do so. Learn to live with disappointment.
Quote:
A question for you joph, taking away the manmade religion, would you still beleive in god, and why?
also, what is your extent of belief in manmade religion
also, what is your extent of belief in manmade religion
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
EvilPhysicist wrote:
Bhodi, interesting perspective, what are your beliefs on purgatory, i havent met a baptist who believed in it. Typically the baptist i meet, (and how i was), believe in only heaven and hell.
All this mention of my name in this thread is making me like a tizzy schoolgirl
The anthropology stuff you find me believing like a **** however when it comes to the theological it is merely an interest not a belief. If you want a look at the Roman Catholic view of purgatory then here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory
Edit and because I heart wikipedia First circle of hell
Circle 1. Limbo - the unbaptized and virtuous pagans, who, though not sinful, did not accept Christ. They are not punished in an active sense, but are merely unable to reach Heaven and denied God's presence for eternity (Canto 4).
Edited, Fri Jul 15 12:45:51 2005 by bhodisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
yes, ive read dante's inferno, good book, though tough read.
joph: ok, say we are the only sentient species in the entire universe(drastically improbable),and say that one of mans religion's is correct, then say its your religion. Why do we exist as mamals before we go to heaven or hell? Are we given the chance at life simply to go through a lifetime of tests to see if we deserve afterlife? and wouldnt that be unfair to everyone born on a different side of the glode, who were born into another religion. i mean, its hella easy for someone to accept christ as an american raised in that culture. But for a child born in india, who is taught hinduism and a vastly differernt religious background, did god doom him to hell? we are a product of our surrounding, of our family, of our educations, and of our culture, the belief that one religion is correct insinuates predestination and condemns quite a bit of humanity to the great abyss.
joph: ok, say we are the only sentient species in the entire universe(drastically improbable),and say that one of mans religion's is correct, then say its your religion. Why do we exist as mamals before we go to heaven or hell? Are we given the chance at life simply to go through a lifetime of tests to see if we deserve afterlife? and wouldnt that be unfair to everyone born on a different side of the glode, who were born into another religion. i mean, its hella easy for someone to accept christ as an american raised in that culture. But for a child born in india, who is taught hinduism and a vastly differernt religious background, did god doom him to hell? we are a product of our surrounding, of our family, of our educations, and of our culture, the belief that one religion is correct insinuates predestination and condemns quite a bit of humanity to the great abyss.
Quote:
One thing i like to know about people though, is after they disband their personal superstitions and realize the falacies of man made religion, is wether they still hold onto the concept of a god. I am curious if these people just have a hard time letting go of this concept, or if they beleive in god for different reasons(ie: where di we come from).
You lost me in this condescending drivel. This is not the good basis for a debate, this is "If you don't believe the same thing as me then you must be inept, here let me talk really slow and high pitched, googly googly ga"
Something I like to know about athiests, why does it make them so angry to think that someone else believes in an afterlife if we all just go out like a firework at the end anyway? Is it the same feeling a bully gets stamping a childs sandcastle back into the beach in front of them?
Nicroll 65 Assassin
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
Teltorid 52 Druid
Aude Sapere
Oh hell camp me all you want f**kers. I own this site and thus I own you. - Allakhazam
1. Do you believe animals have conciousness, dogs, cats, dolphins.
1A. Consciousness is a quality of the mind generally regarded to comprise qualities such as subjectivity, self-awareness, sentience, sapience, and the ability to perceive the relationship between oneself and one's environment. In common parlance, consciousness denotes being awake and responsive to one's environment; this contrasts with being asleep or being in a coma.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conciousness I think that pretty much answers it for you, dose it not? Animals are generally aware of what’s going on around them, sadly sometimes more than humans.
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
2A. Can't say, I can see us at one point being sea creatures or primates but I wasn't there so honestly I have no clue, neither do I worry over it. I'm here for the now, its not where I came from its where I'm going and how I drive my path.
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existence for being less intelligent?
3A. Interesting question but I think you included something that doesn’t match up, Lets say I believe in a higher power (call it what ever you want God, Bod, Alla, Jimmy dean whatever!) Who says I believe in heaven? Who says we don't just have the here and now? And more importantly why would you worry about it, honestly there’s nothing you can do about it. Also as a side note what would your "heaven" be with out your favorite companion at your side?
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our consciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
4A. This last one I often question, If God made us after himself why can't I walk on water, now modern Physics says I can. Why can't I turn water into wine or multiply the loaves and the fishes? Maybe its something we can all do and just forgot along the way. Maybe Jesus wasn't saying follow me but be like me? Maybe Jesus was just an advanced being and knew that this world was nothing but a fancy mirror trick? Illusions any one.
http://www.rambles.net/bach_illusions.html
I've personally just come to the point where I'm sooo sick of taking every ones else’s word for it that I question everything now, yes its very tiring...
Jade
1A. Consciousness is a quality of the mind generally regarded to comprise qualities such as subjectivity, self-awareness, sentience, sapience, and the ability to perceive the relationship between oneself and one's environment. In common parlance, consciousness denotes being awake and responsive to one's environment; this contrasts with being asleep or being in a coma.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conciousness I think that pretty much answers it for you, dose it not? Animals are generally aware of what’s going on around them, sadly sometimes more than humans.
2. What do you think our relation to primates is, or do you think there is any?
2A. Can't say, I can see us at one point being sea creatures or primates but I wasn't there so honestly I have no clue, neither do I worry over it. I'm here for the now, its not where I came from its where I'm going and how I drive my path.
3. if you say there is a god, and he created all the animals, will they go to your heaven? or are they doomed a temporary existence for being less intelligent?
3A. Interesting question but I think you included something that doesn’t match up, Lets say I believe in a higher power (call it what ever you want God, Bod, Alla, Jimmy dean whatever!) Who says I believe in heaven? Who says we don't just have the here and now? And more importantly why would you worry about it, honestly there’s nothing you can do about it. Also as a side note what would your "heaven" be with out your favorite companion at your side?
4. Last but not least: if god created us as companions, would that not mean that our consciousness is on par with his? or are we just pets ^^.
4A. This last one I often question, If God made us after himself why can't I walk on water, now modern Physics says I can. Why can't I turn water into wine or multiply the loaves and the fishes? Maybe its something we can all do and just forgot along the way. Maybe Jesus wasn't saying follow me but be like me? Maybe Jesus was just an advanced being and knew that this world was nothing but a fancy mirror trick? Illusions any one.
http://www.rambles.net/bach_illusions.html
I've personally just come to the point where I'm sooo sick of taking every ones else’s word for it that I question everything now, yes its very tiring...
Jade
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