for the Athiests, ect..Follow

Any post arguing for or against religion can be summed up in three words: perception defines reality.

End of discussion.



Yes, I was too lazy to read the whole thread. I'll do better once I'm back in the States.

Kylen



A more accurate statement would be that since our consciousness EQUALS these reactions, consciousness should be able to develop as a result of another IDENTICAL (or almost identical) series of chemical reactions, not just any random ones.

I understand, but this is assuming that all states of consciousness are identical as well.



Kelvy wrote:Very well. I don't believe it because I see no difference between your 'chemical brain reactions' and say.. lightning burning a tree...

and the state of lightning striking a tree could be said to be just as conscious as a brain.


You wouldn't say that if you had ever taken a class or read any books about how the brain works. I'm a computer scientist, but even my freshman biology class covered and confirmed most of what EvilPhysicist is saying. He just makes himself sound kinda arrogant in the way he presents it.


I admit I'm being a bit extreme with it, but the point was that lightning striking a tree consists of extreme states of organic matter and electricity.

isn't how they say that life formed anyway?? lightning hitting a pond or somthihg? or was that a movie...


The chemical processes are all responses to external stimuli that travel through our nerve system to our brain.


yes I agree, and the brain sends the stimuli to the psyche which tells the brain waht to tell the body to do. that's how I see it.

Wehn science gives me a name for a physical "pyche" I'll use that. (of coarse I'll still just see it as a physical representation of a mete-physical thing. It's like reflections.. matter, anti-matter...... I'm put a lid on that.

It's false to say that the laws of physics directly contradict the existence of consciousness as a function of our brains, though.

You see. If it was proven to me that those chemical brain processes WERE specifically our consciousness, then I would say that it doesn't. BUt the laws of physicas can not be changed. And the construct of matter does not allow room for the idea of spontanious consciousness happening. WE should not be able to feel a thing and IT IS MY OPPINION that we do.

maybe that makes me no different from Pinnochio eh??





OMG, I have to stop with this before I'm on this All NIGHT hahahahahah

Actually, I can disprove the Soul to you. Can you feel it? See it? Hear it? Smell it? Does it exist physically? No. It's part of that other realm I mentioned earlier, which by it's very definition can't be proven to exist under any law of Physics you want to call forth. I really wish I paid more attention in my freshman Philosophy classes, because a lot of the more famous Philosophers were eventually discredited simply because they can't prove this Soul, this other realm of existence to which we are somehow linked, exists.

So you admit that there's all these complex processes going on in the mind, chemicals sending messages to this area or that, etc. Somewhere in all of that, consciousness arises. Now, again I have to introduce you to Occam's Razor. It's a simpler explanation, and therefore more apt to be correct, that all these chemical/electromagnetic or w/e reactions give rise to our consciousness, and we just don't understand enough about it to pinpoint the exact location.

Saying that somewhere in all of that, all of these physical chemicals and whatnot communicate with something that has absolutely no basis for existence in the physical world, something that gives us our consciousness through these physical chemicals... is an infinitely more complex solution to the problem at hand.

The difference between the two explanations, is that one doesn't make sense, and one just doesn't make sense yet.

Note: I mention the Soul in union to some entirely other realm, because that is the most logical way to think about it. I'm not saying that there's some other dimension where every soul mingles together, I'm saying that there is another realm of existence, one that doesn't follow any of the laws of Physics as we know them. A realm where things like the Soul make sense.

Now, you like to ask questions concerning things like "what" where" "when" etc, so I have a few to pose myself:

-What exactly do you believe is in our brains that can communicate to something that has no physical existence?
-Where does the Soul reside?
-Assuming that Man did evolve(and the evidence weighs strongly in favor of this), when did Man gain a Soul? If Man had a Soul from the start, why were we so primitive to begin with? Would we not have had cognitive thought from the very beginning?
-What is the Soul made of?

I just do NOT understand how this thread has stayed on topic for 3 pages. It's an outrage!!

Yes, I have created a LIVING THREAD!! It is consciouss!! Mwahahahahahaha

Wow, none of that made very much sense. At least, in any way relating to your argument. Everything you used as an example can be explained by laws of Physics. The existence of the Soul can't. The very definition of a Soul(eternal and outside of time, non-physical, etc) doesn't allow itself to be explained by Physics. A Soul is made of nothing, because if it were to exist it would have to be comprised at its very basic level of these atoms and neutrons, and it would be giving off an electromagnetic field that could be detected using some law of Physics. So if something is made out of nothing, can it exist?

Further more, if something doesn't exist, can it communicate with things that do exist?

It seems to me that your argument relies very heavily upon the existence of "magic", because otherwise it just doesn't make sense. Does it make sense to you that some all-powerful being came along and created the universe, then just kind of let it do its own thing? Because it doesn't make any sense to me. If this all-powerful being really does exist, he's doing a lousy job of it. Oh wait, it's that whole "free-agent" thing. Sorry, I forgot about that. This all-powerful being wants humanity to make its own choices, so he can't intervene at all. Doesn't it seem odd that everything religion is based off of seems to contradict this?

I don't know much about any religion other than Christianity, but I know that in the Bible God seemed to intervene a hell of a lot. He spoke through bushes that were on fire, he rained plague on cities, he gave his Prophets the ability to move bodies of water, etc. Yet oddly enough... nothing for the past 2000 years or so. Did he get tired of trying to lead his people back to his kingdom? If God is all-powerful, how come he didn't just skip this whole Earth -based existence thing and give us all perfect bodies in his kingdom? That seems to be what he wants to happen, so why not just snap his fingers and make it happen?

Doesn't it seem like having faith in something that, by its own definition, can't be proven to exist by physical laws and sciences is really just pulling a blindfold over your own eyes?

The definition of faith itself makes me laugh, "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence".

Waht is Time made of? Does TIme exist?

You are assuming that there are no other states of existance then waht we are aware of. Ridiculous.


I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT RELIGION!!!!

YOu are insisting on PERSONIFYING the unknown forces of the UNiverse, why does it have to be a being of YOUR liking, that does things and wants things that only petty little YOu can imagine, to begin to try to understand and start preaching the nature of these unknown forces are simply Utter Folly!

WAhtEver


UM, Maybe that's why I DO believe in "magic", because as far as Physical rules go, consiouscness seems to be somthing that transcends Physics, thus making it beyond our scope of understanding, thus making it "magic" or wahtever other generic term you wish to use for unknown natural forces.
which is waht this is All about.




Listen carefully

MANKIND INVENTED the concept of logic. It is based on OUr standard of thought and comprehension and nothing more. If there is somthing that lay beyond the realm of the infallable rules of logic that all of our existence is mathematically based on, then I'm sure it would shatter the walls of reality and destroy the univers as we know it





HA! YOU belive that only because our science cannot detect it that it is Folly to believe that somthing IS there.
JUst because spomthing is not following the same standards of our physical reality, not not mean that it does not exist.

Does a THOUGHT exist? Waht is a THought? Waht kindof existance is a thought of a mathematical equATIONS or if I built an entire unicerse in my head.... does none of this exist?

Obviously it DOES exost, because it IS there. Waht does that mean? That your thoughts are beyond the molecules and nuerons.









You have proven nothing with your limited facts. The only reason this thread is still going is your constant insistance that You ar absulutly right and I am absolutly wrong.

I FULLY have always understood waht the biological mind is. My points are based on hypothesis (though done in my head) and are as such that you cannot disprove them truly as it is all specualtion on BOTH of our parts. YOU are the one so insistant that you MSUT be right.

SO at a certain point you have stopped really thinking about anything that I have been sayhing here and are just automataically hitting me with critisism.

Personally I think that you are the one who doesn't understand waht I am saying. You read the words but cannot really grasp what I am saying.


YOur argument is limited and repeatative.
but yeah, this is all getting old.
I'm getting on my own nerves now.

Fu[/b]ck it and FU[b]CK YOU for not understranding that there is more to reality thatn you are aware of, you fu[/b]cking ******.. out of all of the layers of everything that ever existed, waht in the HELL would make you thnk that we have any SORT of FU[b]CKING CLUE WAHT is OUT THERE? Where we are at is the utter tip of the iceberg, and you can study that whole entire tip all you like and tell me exactly how it works and why, but it don't got **** to do with the rest of the iceberg. It's bigger than you think.

AS for Why I belive. I told you, I am aware. THat's It. blatantly. Perhaps it'sthat I have let go of thr restrictions of the brainwashings that weare all taught, that all we know is all there is.

eh, wahtever
It's all in good Fun

word

Damn kelvy, you really started losing it this last page.

Gonna check the roomate bat thread to see if you've gone rabid yet.

Determined isn't the right word, but it's the first word that comes to mind.

I will just say that you're being as stubborn and narrow-minded as you claim us to be.

thnk about it



Isn't arguing this stuff like arguing:

Person1: People are made of CELLS!!!!

Person2: NO!! YOU FOOL!! people are made out of molecules!!

Person1: CELLS!!!

Person2: MOLECULES!!!


or for that matter arguing whether light is a wave or particle.

Duality.

I DO have faith in the scientific community to find things out that will help us.



but I don't fool myself into thinking that they cannot only see so far.