for the Athiests, ect..Follow

No, just a glitch in the Matrix.

It's the rabies, dude, making you crazy.

Very well. I don't believe it because I see no difference between your 'chemical brain reactions' and say.. lightning burning a tree...

and the state of lightning striking a tree could be said to be just as conscious as a brain.


but like I said, admit that that is waht you think and I'll shut up about it. So there you go.


although i would NOT count a series of chemical reactions as consciousness.

Basically you are saying that you do NOT believe in consciousness. You believe in PRE-Programed chemical processes and we are somhow fooled into thinking that we are making desicions and loving and hating things, wehn really it's all just a buncha pre-determined calulated responses.

If you would have said "No" in your first post on this thread it would prolly have been much shorter.

so do you believe the mind and the brain are different things or the same?

kelv: again, your trying to make it more than it is, but whatever, believe what you want, we are all made up of magic fairy energy.

and yes, higher reasoning is just another fancy name for "all that ******* moving around up there".

Teleah: the brain is the organism which handles the processes. The mind is a psychological term used to describe the total conciousness of a person, their personality, thoughts, emotions, what makes that person unique. In a sense they are the same, but are used to specify wether talking about bio-chemical reactions or psychological ones.

allen wrote
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I'm still curious to know how, being that we are biological robots, who evolved from the tinest microbes, came to build churches or paint sunsets.

Based on the fact that all evolution must stem from the basic survival instincts, where does man get the desire to do and see things that are completely un-necessary for survival?

Also, what about fun? Animals do things for fun, but humans are the only creatures I can think of that will purposely put ourselves in danger for the pursuit of fun. Being that this behavior goes against basic survival instincts, isn't it safe to say there's something different about us? Some chemical or spritual make-up that seperates us from all the other animals?

Personally, I find it hard to believe that we all started from galactic sludge, simply based on the fact that we live 99% of our lives chasing not those things needed for survival, but those things which bring us pleasure. For the purposes of this argument I won't say what I think it is, because it would de-rail the conversation. But I do think that consiousness, or the soul, or whatever you want to call it, does exist.

After all, if we were just biological robots, why would anyone smoke? It goes completely against instinct, and is nothing more than a slow suicide
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as we evolved our reasoning skills increased. By this we found more efficient ways to meet our basic needs to survive. This was a arduous and slow process, and as we increased our reasoning skills and thus our knowledge of our surroundings, so did our ability to more efficiently supply our needs. Given that we can now work as a society and help each other meet certain needs(farmers, electricians, home builders) we now how extra time in which we have nothing to do but amuse ourselves. these "amusements" are some of the things that set us apart from lower animals: painting, music, reading.

you can see this through history, the farther back in time you go, the more a culture has to focus on surviving, and less on amusement. I doubt you will find any great works of art in cave men times. If you would notice, we find cave drawings and pots to show their integration of reasoning into their system, a way of holding water in hardened clay, and drawing events using various colors.
as you move through history you will see these things advance, all the way up to today where the majority of our lives is spent determining how to amuse ourselves.


Try looking at it from an unbiased point of view, i have found when looking at evolution from a religios point of view, many people will not accept it. Even when i was a christian i believed in evolution, for if god(s) created this universe, then he/she/it did so using the physical laws that they so brilliantly established. But, as stated in an earlier post, evolution isnt really a question, we did evolve, we are just still trying to figure out the exact steps. I dont mind if you believe in god, but i assure you, if he/she existed, he would never want you to deny the evidence at hand and simply clothe yourself in ignorance.


Thomas Jefferson wrote:
Shake off the fears or servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.



Edited, Thu Jul 14 13:25:23 2005 by EvilPhysicist

Not "separate from", but a result of.

It's still just a matter of attributing the currently unknown to The Great Googly-Moogly, instead of realizing we simply haven't figured it out yet. It looks for all the world like you're approaching the discussion with the assumption that our scientific processes and technology are never going to get any more advanced.

yes, i thought that it was understood that i was talking about about macro evolution...sorry you didn't get that...i'll try to remember that one word "macro" in the future

ya telleah, i really dont think you should say evolution is as unproven as god lol. there is so much dam evidence behind evolution, we are just trying to peice it all together, again i say there is NO question wether we evolved. Comparing it to something that has absolutely no proof like "god" is a very drastic an s unwarranted stetp. again i say please try and look at these things from an unbiased point of view, dont let christianity blind you from known facts such as:
1. there was a big bang (fact)
2. we did evolve (fact)
3. religion was created by man( fact)

now if you want to derive god out of something else, go ahead, but dont deny any of the above facts. its quite funny though how after showing a person that religion is wrong they still base their beleifs on "the universe is just to complex to have happened", when that arguement is the EXACT same thing as saying "i dont feel like taking the time to learn and question, so ill attribute it to some highre power idea that i got from that fake religion".

how it happened is the theory, whether we expanded from a some explosion is not. and books like "angels and demons" use half theories and partial understandings to manipulate the reader into thinking the book is plausible

Logical fallacy again there, Kelv :/. A more accurate statement would be that since our consciousness EQUALS these reactions, consciousness should be able to develop as a result of another IDENTICAL (or almost identical) series of chemical reactions, not just any random ones.


You wouldn't say that if you had ever taken a class or read any books about how the brain works. I'm a computer scientist, but even my freshman biology class covered and confirmed most of what EvilPhysicist is saying. He just makes himself sound kinda arrogant in the way he presents it.


We've been saying that it's chemical processes all along, but nowhere did we ever say that they were pre-programmed. The chemical processes are all responses to external stimuli that travel through our nerve system to our brain.

If you want to attribute God or the idea of a Soul to explain our higher thought processes which science hasn't found a 100% concrete answer for yet, that's fine. A lot of people do, and everyone's entitled to their beliefs. It's false to say that the laws of physics directly contradict the existence of consciousness as a function of our brains, though.


Actually, this can be explained by chemical reactions in the brain as well. Engaging in dangerous, "life-threatening" activities causes your brain to release large amounts of adrenaline and endorphins (feel free to make any minor corrections to this, Evil - it's been awhile since I took any sort of Bio class) which make you feel a variety of strong emotions. Usually fear, while you are engaging in the activity itself, followed by a strong sense of relief/euphoria that you "survived". It's that feeling of euphoria that thrillseekers try to achieve. Even when the activity that you're participating in is relatively safe like riding a rollercoaster, your brain is subconsciously tricked into thinking that you're doing something dangerous, giving you that adrenaline rush.


Same deal, nicotine is a drug that affects the brain, making you feel pleasure. Why haven't humans evolved so that we have a genetic predisposition to avoid these "suicide sticks"? Simple. It takes millions of years for an evolution like this to occur, and humans have only been smoking for maybe a few thousand years at most.

Just because we're "biological robots" doesn't mean that we behave rationally or think logically all the time. We are governed by the chemicals in our brains. The balances of these chemicals are different in each person.

come on, you have no absolute proof of ANY of these.






..but on that note you have no absolute proof in ANYTHING do you, even that you are really here... so it really is all just fun and games, no one can ever truly prove anything to anyone, save for on superficial levels.






EvilPhisicist, are you implying that somone who believes in the unseen must always "clothe themselves in ignorance" and shun all science?

fu[b][/b]ck you buddy
you say, "I don't mind if you believe in God" and then call people ignorant for doing so.

Ignorant in waht I must ask? If we are capapble of seeing NAtural Laws as seperate from Direct acts of God, then WAHT ARE WE INGNORANT OF??

I Do NOT think that physics are wrong, I am pointing out the vast room for so much more, God is a generic term for it. If is the unknow pattern that make all of this happen, wehn be figure out that pattern I will stop calling it God.



Edited, Thu Jul 14 17:31:27 2005 by Kelvyquayo