It is well established that you don't believe in God or any form or external psychical (non-physical) reality.
then
Do you belive in conciousness? Do you believe that you are a sentient being?
Concider this
Our thoughts and emotions, along with ALL THINGS biological, chemical, and cerebral are dictated by basic laws of physics. The laws of physics in their own right follow the laws of quantum mechanics. These laws tell us that in that most basic level (quantum electrodynamic) that the interactions between the particles that humans and every other object in the universe cause electro-magnetic fields. These electr-magnetic fields are usually described as the origins for our conciousness, our joy, our fear, or hate, et cetera.
Now concider that these same laws also dictate that all electrons are all equal and indistinguishable. Does this not mean that all electrical impulses are equal as well?
Electric impulses generate only electromagnetic fields. Does this not mean the waves generated by the electric impulses in our brain are the equivalent the ones generated by any other electric impulse?
The SAME waves are that are traveling at light speed through each in everything everywhere, from our brains to the Sun at the speed of light.
Back to the matter of conciousness.
Does this mean that our Computers and pet rocks can get depressed and fall in love?
IS that a silly question? according to all of science it isn't.
Edited, Wed Jul 13 02:05:37 2005 by Kelvyquayo
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Why do you question others beliefs so readily?
Why, did I strike a nerve?
Kelvy dont make me pull out the logical fallacy link 
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Only a slight one, theonly problem i see is that you're trying to make people question their beliefs. Most other non christains I know NEVER even think about making people question their own choice in faith.
It's a very old thorn in my side. I live in arkansas right now, do i need to explain the bad parts of an atheist living in the bible belt? >.>. Always these questions and other things, peices of "Logic" and what not to try and make YOUR view look better and make everybody else look stupid.
WHy do you even try? I look stupid enough on my own, i dont need soembodys help.
*EDIT*
actually, i'll you'll let me sleep and get back to this thread tomarrow afternoon i can put up a better argument or debate. right nowim to tired to think x.x
Edited, Wed Jul 13 02:25:41 2005 by Leondol
It's a very old thorn in my side. I live in arkansas right now, do i need to explain the bad parts of an atheist living in the bible belt? >.>. Always these questions and other things, peices of "Logic" and what not to try and make YOUR view look better and make everybody else look stupid.
WHy do you even try? I look stupid enough on my own, i dont need soembodys help.
*EDIT*
actually, i'll you'll let me sleep and get back to this thread tomarrow afternoon i can put up a better argument or debate. right nowim to tired to think x.x
Edited, Wed Jul 13 02:25:41 2005 by Leondol
I'm the freedom man. That's how lucky I am.
Kelvy dont make me pull out the logical fallacy link
did I error? please point it out.
Quote:
Kelvy dont make me pull out the logical fallacy link
did I error? please point it out.
Its difficult to pin it down to just a few but basically
Undistributed Middle: two separate categories are said to be connected because they share a common property
Existential Fallacy: a particular conclusion is drawn from universal premises
Composition: because the attributes of the parts of a whole have a certain property, it is argued that the whole has that property
Begging the Question: the truth of the conclusion is assumed by the premises
just to name a few
Undistributed Middle: two separate categories are said to be connected because they share a common property
Existential Fallacy: a particular conclusion is drawn from universal premises
Composition: because the attributes of the parts of a whole have a certain property, it is argued that the whole has that property
Begging the Question: the truth of the conclusion is assumed by the premises
just to name a few
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Kelvyquayo the Hand wrote:
I'm the freedom man. That's how lucky I am.
Sung to the tune of I'm your Boogie Man
Quote:
Most other non christains I know NEVER even think about making people question their own choice in faith
Edited, Wed Jul 13 07:04:23 2005 by Jophiel
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Quote:
Now concider that these same laws also dictate that all electrons are all equal and indistinguishable. Does this not mean that all electrical impulses are equal as well?
Well I am by far an expert in the field of physics and quantum mechanics, but I thought that despite electrons being indistinguishable it is the amount of electrons/protons/neutrons that give an atom a charge. Also their distance from the nucleus plays a part in their strength. Different amount of electrons and spacing, different electrom magnetic fields? I am not sure.
Again its way to early, Im no expert, Im gonna play my DSD card and chalk the above up to no coffee.
Ok i'm awake, after my orthodontist appointment and some caffe i'll come back and put together a decent not so ****** post. Joph, i can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not so meh.
Most non christains i know are pretty damn respectfull about everybody elses religions, maybe i just got lucky. I know theres plenty of non christains out there that are ******** about it.
Most non christains i know are pretty damn respectfull about everybody elses religions, maybe i just got lucky. I know theres plenty of non christains out there that are ******** about it.
Define "Non-Christian". Most people of other faiths that I've known have little issue with those believing in Christianity. Most atheists I know are every bit as rabid about it as the most devout evangelical Christians when the topic comes up.
Of course, we're basing this on personal experience so your milage may vary.
Of course, we're basing this on personal experience so your milage may vary.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Quote:
Different amount of electrons and spacing, different electrom magnetic fields?
But the magnetic fields are the same. They are made up of traveling electrons.
At waht point is this supposed to make me believe that these electtromatic fields are supposed to be responsible for our conciousness? Everything has electromatic fields. According to the laws of physics, ect; either consciousness should not exist or everything can have it.
We know that we feel emotions, but technically there is no difference between the transient electrons in our brains and those in a lightbulb or in a oxygen molecule.
Seems to me that this means that the most logical conclusion is that consciousness exists seperate from the physical world.
Quote:
Define "Non-Christian". Most people of other faiths that I've known have little issue with those believing in Christianity. Most atheists I know are every bit as rabid about it as the most devout evangelical Christians when the topic comes up.
Of course, we're basing this on personal experience so your milage may vary.
Of course, we're basing this on personal experience so your milage may vary.
I believe that is a very good assessment...that is usually, in my experience, what happens with both opposite ends of the spectrum
again, you have taken your limited knowledge of a subject and attempted to draw some grander meaning to it.
Fortunately, unlike religion which i know a great deal about but am far from expert, you have entered into my domain. My personal expertise as a medical physicist is Neuroscience. I study the physical and biological makeup of the many different types of neurons that make up the human system. SO:
Do i beleive in conciousness: Yes, but probably not as you think of it. You see, you dont understand what it is so you see it as some macroscopic thing that has texture and exists beyond your own mind. Conciousness is simply self awareness made possible by a sophisticated net of neural impulses. Yes these are bio-chemical signals and yes electrons are there obviously, but if your trying to imply that this electric field is what makes up kind of a layer of conciousness that we are just to primitive to detect, im sorry but your wrong and a bit offbase. The electric feild generated by the brain is significant but as all electromagnetic feild decays rapidly as you get farther from the source. There is no magical ether that we are all a part of simply because we are electrical lol. Your brainwaves have a hard time making it out of your skull, let alone all the way to the sun....
Using neural activity great enough to allow self awareness as a definition of conciousness, then no a rock does not have feelings, and since computers are not self aware yet niether do they. Attempting to yet again misconstrure another simple physics concept to prove an unprovable arguement (since gods off in that unprovable non-physical universe lol), is gettinga bit old kelv.
I dont like trashin you kelv, but please stop posting with half physics facts trying to "show me my error". I mean damn man, do you actually think your going to "out physics" me so to speak. Perhaps you are some brillant home physicists, perhaps not, but TRY and assume that with a doctorate in physics i might understand these concepts enough to not be swayed by rather laughable misinterpretations of them.
Edited, Wed Jul 13 11:34:24 2005 by EvilPhysicist
Fortunately, unlike religion which i know a great deal about but am far from expert, you have entered into my domain. My personal expertise as a medical physicist is Neuroscience. I study the physical and biological makeup of the many different types of neurons that make up the human system. SO:
Do i beleive in conciousness: Yes, but probably not as you think of it. You see, you dont understand what it is so you see it as some macroscopic thing that has texture and exists beyond your own mind. Conciousness is simply self awareness made possible by a sophisticated net of neural impulses. Yes these are bio-chemical signals and yes electrons are there obviously, but if your trying to imply that this electric field is what makes up kind of a layer of conciousness that we are just to primitive to detect, im sorry but your wrong and a bit offbase. The electric feild generated by the brain is significant but as all electromagnetic feild decays rapidly as you get farther from the source. There is no magical ether that we are all a part of simply because we are electrical lol. Your brainwaves have a hard time making it out of your skull, let alone all the way to the sun....
Using neural activity great enough to allow self awareness as a definition of conciousness, then no a rock does not have feelings, and since computers are not self aware yet niether do they. Attempting to yet again misconstrure another simple physics concept to prove an unprovable arguement (since gods off in that unprovable non-physical universe lol), is gettinga bit old kelv.
I dont like trashin you kelv, but please stop posting with half physics facts trying to "show me my error". I mean damn man, do you actually think your going to "out physics" me so to speak. Perhaps you are some brillant home physicists, perhaps not, but TRY and assume that with a doctorate in physics i might understand these concepts enough to not be swayed by rather laughable misinterpretations of them.
Edited, Wed Jul 13 11:34:24 2005 by EvilPhysicist
Quote:
Conciousness is simply self awareness made possible by a sophisticated net of neural impulses. Yes these are bio-chemical signals and yes electrons are there obviously, but if your trying to imply that this electric field is what makes up kind of a layer of conciousness that we are just to primitive to detect, im sorry but your wrong and a bit offbase. The electric feild generated by the brain is significant but as all electromagnetic feild decays rapidly as you get farther from the source.
This still does not explain how how consciousness Is.
Yes, chemical this and neural impulses that.... but WHY DOES THAT MEAN SELF AWARENESS????
You're preconceived notions of my argument are disappointing. Where am I contesting the laws of physics?
1) Is it not true that electomagetic fields all share the same properties?
2) Is it not true that it is the accepted belief that these fields comprise of our conciousness?
I mean waht are you arguing against?
Quote:
but if your trying to imply that this electric field is what makes up kind of a layer of conciousness that we are just to primitive to detect, im sorry but your wrong and a bit offbase. The electric feild generated by the brain is significant but as all electromagnetic feild decays rapidly as you get farther from the source. There is no magical ether that we are all a part of simply because we are electrical lol.
NO, I m not implying that. I am implying that the consciousness is INDEPENDANT of the physical world, and thus is UNEFFECT by the laws of physics.
BEcause
According to the Laws of physics there is no reason why we should not be able to construct a computer with the same impulses and have if become self aware, which just doesn't happen.
WHY ARE WE SELF AWARE? THere is nothing in science that can answer this. The best we get is "It's a complex network of electrical impulses and fields.. blablablablab"
This I cannot abide.
Based on that Logic, anything else that comprises of electromagnetic fields has the potential for consiousness.
Waht the FU[b][/b]CK makes US so special that we are "self aware" and my toaster is not?
How many ways do I have to say it?
You are telling me, "We just Do"
Neural activity? Well waht is that made of? Electro-magnetic impulses. I FAIL to see the difference. I don't see why the complexity is the cause for us to believe that it is responsible for consciousness. Are you sugesting that the electric impulses in our head our the most complex in the universe and thus allowing us to be aware?
LUDICROUS
Just admit taht you don't know and cannot explain why consciousness exists.
Edited, Wed Jul 13 12:07:15 2005 by Kelvyquayo
Quote:
According to the Laws of physics there is no reason why we should not be able to construct a computer with the same impulses and have if become self aware, which just doesn't happen.
Kelv, if we understood enough about the brain, then yes, potentially we could make something with self-awareness or consciousness. We don't yet have that level of understanding, which is why we haven't.
A century ago, you could have made the same arguement about the creation of life. Now we can manipulate conception, make clones, grow living tissue, and all sorts of things using our increased knowledge of biology.
An electro-magnetic field is an electromagnetic field and cannot be anything other than that.
To suggest that consciousness is comprised of these contradicts this fact.
An electron is an electron, which move and create fields. It is well established. It is well known that our brains are made up of nothing more than particles ect... and all of the atoms down to the quantum level still follow the same laws as ANYTHING else.
You are arguing that some "consiousness" is caused by this. If all matter in the universe follow the same rules, then this is illogical. It is a contridiction to say that there we are made of the same **** yet happen to have different results than anything else in the universe.
To suggest that consciousness is comprised of these contradicts this fact.
An electron is an electron, which move and create fields. It is well established. It is well known that our brains are made up of nothing more than particles ect... and all of the atoms down to the quantum level still follow the same laws as ANYTHING else.
You are arguing that some "consiousness" is caused by this. If all matter in the universe follow the same rules, then this is illogical. It is a contridiction to say that there we are made of the same **** yet happen to have different results than anything else in the universe.
Kelv wrote:
I r teh smartness and u atheists suxorz and r teh wrongness!
Electrical impulses aren't all of what goes on in our brains. The electrical impulses most of the time set off a chemical reaction. Those chemicals are "sensed" by receptors and we act accordingly to what the chemical message is.
Rocks aren't conscious because they're made of minerals. They don't have the same type of electrical fields and sh[b][/b]it you'll find in our brains. Other animals are conscious, but in different ways. No, were're more than likely NOT the only fully conscious beings in the universe, but we can really only explore a very limited area of the universe, which is, so far, considered to be infinite, and still expanding.
What do you have against Atheists. I'm one of MANY atheists that just don't care enough about religion to argue with people like you, but someone "like you" ALWAYS tries to start an argument and prove us wrong, using illogical falacies and trying to use our means of proof against us. Out of all the religious people I know, which is a LOT, only about 1 out of every 20 tries to convince me I'm wrong and god exists. But I NEVER start that conversation, and avoid it with every fiber of my being. I hate you religious zealots that try to start a fight. Why don't you just live YOUR life, practice YOUR religious beliefs, and leave the REST of our lives alone. We don't want to be "saved". We don't want to "find god". Just go away!
Edit: Random missing letters.
Edited, Wed Jul 13 12:42:30 2005 by Roller
Quote:
It is a contridiction to say that there we are made of the same sh*t yet happen to have different results than anything else in the universe.
Why? Carbon is carbon. Diamond and Graphite are made of the same ****, and happen to have different results from each other. And that is at the most very basic elemental level.
Non christain, basicly anybody who is not christain. Don't know how to word that to well to make it sound better. Not many jewish, muslim, or any other denominations down here. And yeah you're right there are plenty of atheist's who are rabid and abnoxious, i've met a few. I usually don't talk to people like that very much after a first meeting though.
I guess im intolerant twords intolerance, stupid yeah but wahtever im not to worried about it. If some atheist is ragging on christain or anybody else just to be an *** you can bet your checking account i'll stand up for the "other" group without giving it to much thought.
There are extremist's from each end, and i know my fare share of both. I just tend to get along and befriend those who are more open minded. That does not mean though that i do not have friends who are very christain, that dosn't bother me. Theres a mutual respect there. I'm sorry that your run in with atheist's haven't been so great, i know that alot of us to tend to give ourselves a bad name *insert random pissed of smiley here*
I guess im intolerant twords intolerance, stupid yeah but wahtever im not to worried about it. If some atheist is ragging on christain or anybody else just to be an *** you can bet your checking account i'll stand up for the "other" group without giving it to much thought.
There are extremist's from each end, and i know my fare share of both. I just tend to get along and befriend those who are more open minded. That does not mean though that i do not have friends who are very christain, that dosn't bother me. Theres a mutual respect there. I'm sorry that your run in with atheist's haven't been so great, i know that alot of us to tend to give ourselves a bad name *insert random pissed of smiley here*
/sigh, you really dont know what yoru talking about, unfortunatley that doesnt stop many people.
1) Is it not true that electomagetic fields all share the same properties?
2) Is it not true that it is the accepted belief that these fields comprise of our conciousness
Electric feild only share the same properties if they are the same electric feild..And i wasnt argueing electrodynamics with you, i was arguing your interpretation fo what they mean, which is a good deal offkey.
BEcause
According to the Laws of physics there is no reason why we should not be able to construct a computer with the same impulses and have if become self aware, which just doesn't happen.
its not the laws of physics holding us back, its the detailed structure of the brain that has developed over millions of years of evolution, we are a baby species just learning about ourselves. I can i tell you personally we are far from mapping the specific neural structure of the brain. And untill then we will have a damn hard time replicating it.
WHY ARE WE SELF AWARE? THere is nothing in science that can answer this. The best we get is "It's a complex network of electrical impulses and fields.. blablablablab"
This I cannot abide.
um, leading scientist all over the world are researching the specifics behind thought, and we are slowly but surely getting there. And if you dont wanna accept electrical impulses and neural networks then why the hell did you post, just go join a cult and assume that conciousness is just some magical property (from your non-physical universe LOL). No, we dont have the entire brain mapped yet, but are you REALLY trying to play the "we dont know, so lets say its god" card.....
Waht the **** makes US so special that we are "self aware" and my toaster is not?
did your toaster evolve over millions of years through biological development? Our intelect has developed SLOWLY, and i cannot stress how slowly, by simple need to survive. Take an little cell, even that cell has a nucleas that regulates its systems. That nucleus is FAR from a brain, but it was developed to make the system more efficient. If you study biology you can see as systems become more complex so do their central proccessing and regualtion center. All the way up to humans with highly developed cores. Again you take your ignorance(eww yes, said ignorance again) of the subject and attempt to show your point, but all you really show is your lack of understanding. Perhaps a better conversation could be made with that toaster of yours..
Just admit taht you don't know and cannot explain why consciousness exists.
i believe ive answered that many time, accept it or say its god, whatever floats your boat. But dont make wild accusations and expect to be taking seriously by anyone in the academic community
1) Is it not true that electomagetic fields all share the same properties?
2) Is it not true that it is the accepted belief that these fields comprise of our conciousness
Electric feild only share the same properties if they are the same electric feild..And i wasnt argueing electrodynamics with you, i was arguing your interpretation fo what they mean, which is a good deal offkey.
BEcause
According to the Laws of physics there is no reason why we should not be able to construct a computer with the same impulses and have if become self aware, which just doesn't happen.
its not the laws of physics holding us back, its the detailed structure of the brain that has developed over millions of years of evolution, we are a baby species just learning about ourselves. I can i tell you personally we are far from mapping the specific neural structure of the brain. And untill then we will have a damn hard time replicating it.
WHY ARE WE SELF AWARE? THere is nothing in science that can answer this. The best we get is "It's a complex network of electrical impulses and fields.. blablablablab"
This I cannot abide.
um, leading scientist all over the world are researching the specifics behind thought, and we are slowly but surely getting there. And if you dont wanna accept electrical impulses and neural networks then why the hell did you post, just go join a cult and assume that conciousness is just some magical property (from your non-physical universe LOL). No, we dont have the entire brain mapped yet, but are you REALLY trying to play the "we dont know, so lets say its god" card.....
Waht the **** makes US so special that we are "self aware" and my toaster is not?
did your toaster evolve over millions of years through biological development? Our intelect has developed SLOWLY, and i cannot stress how slowly, by simple need to survive. Take an little cell, even that cell has a nucleas that regulates its systems. That nucleus is FAR from a brain, but it was developed to make the system more efficient. If you study biology you can see as systems become more complex so do their central proccessing and regualtion center. All the way up to humans with highly developed cores. Again you take your ignorance(eww yes, said ignorance again) of the subject and attempt to show your point, but all you really show is your lack of understanding. Perhaps a better conversation could be made with that toaster of yours..
Just admit taht you don't know and cannot explain why consciousness exists.
i believe ive answered that many time, accept it or say its god, whatever floats your boat. But dont make wild accusations and expect to be taking seriously by anyone in the academic community
Quote:
Electrical impulses aren't all of what goes on in our brains. The electrical impulses most of the time set off a chemical reaction. Those chemicals are "sensed" by receptors and we act accordingly to what the chemical message is.
As[b][/b]shole
All of your chemistry and biology and receptors ARE made up of particles which create magnetic fields. ALL OF IT.
It doesn't matter waht one neuron says to the other neuron, they still ALL follow the basic laws of physics, which DICTATE that on that sub-atomic level, everything operates in the same way.
Nect you'll be saying that we can split atoms with other atoms.
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical impulses aren't all of what goes on in our brains. The electrical impulses most of the time set off a chemical reaction. Those chemicals are "sensed" by receptors and we act accordingly to what the chemical message is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*******
All of your chemistry and biology and receptors ARE made up of particles which create magnetic fields. ALL OF IT.
It doesn't matter waht one neuron says to the other neuron, they still ALL follow the basic laws of physics, which DICTATE that on that sub-atomic level, everything operates in the same way.
Nect you'll be saying that we can split atoms with other atoms.
lol, the more you talk, the more you display your ignorance of the subject.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical impulses aren't all of what goes on in our brains. The electrical impulses most of the time set off a chemical reaction. Those chemicals are "sensed" by receptors and we act accordingly to what the chemical message is.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*******
All of your chemistry and biology and receptors ARE made up of particles which create magnetic fields. ALL OF IT.
It doesn't matter waht one neuron says to the other neuron, they still ALL follow the basic laws of physics, which DICTATE that on that sub-atomic level, everything operates in the same way.
Nect you'll be saying that we can split atoms with other atoms.
lol, the more you talk, the more you display your ignorance of the subject.
Quote:
did your toaster evolve over millions of years through biological development?
Doesn't matter.
Are you telling me that biological evolution also chages the laws of physics?
The atoms that the toaster comprise of have been around for millions of year and are the same atoms that we are made of.
Quote:
If you study biology you can see as systems become more complex so do their central proccessing and regualtion center.
You are comparing apples to oranges.
Waht would the biological make up of somthing have to do with the sub-atomic make up of it? It's all the same ****.
I can build a 1000 foot tower made of ice with as many rooms and corridors and stairways and intricacies that I could fit, yet no matter HOW complex, it still wouldn't change the fact that it is made of ice and must follow the rules of ice and melt in the sun.
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