jeb bush announced today his plan for honoring the amendment ot the Florida constitution limmitting class sizes by 2010.
his plan? change the amendment.
he pitted the teachers union against parents by delcaring he would raise the minimum sallery for teachers to 35,000 dollars a year if the restriction on class sizes, voted into the constitution, if voters would vote it OUT of the constitution.
he is submitting a voter referendum in 2006 to get rid of the mandatory cap on class sizes, with support from the teachers union.
but, like the snake to eve, in a single sentance at the end of the press release, he said the sallery increase would not be included in the voter referendum, and would also be subject to legislature approval........
just like his brother, wave the education flag for the votes, and skuttle anything related to education when its time to ponie up.
Edited, Tue Feb 15 15:56:01 2005 by shadowrelm
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Your other post was better.
your response to the other post was better too....
shadowrelm wrote:
jeb bush announced today his plan for honoring the amendment ot the Florida constitution limmitting class sizes by 2010.
his plan? change the amendment.
he pitted the teachers union against parents by delcaring he would raise the minimum sallery for teachers to 35,000 dollars a year if the restriction on class sizes, voted into the constitution, if voters would vote it OUT of the constitution.
he is submitting a voter referendum in 2006 to get rid of the mandatory cap on class sizes, with support from the teachers union.
but, like the snake to eve, in a single sentance at the end of the press release, he said the sallery increase would not be included in the voter referendum, and would also be subject to legislature approval........
just like his brother, wave the education flag for the votes, and skuttle anything related to education when its time to ponie up.
his plan? change the amendment.
he pitted the teachers union against parents by delcaring he would raise the minimum sallery for teachers to 35,000 dollars a year if the restriction on class sizes, voted into the constitution, if voters would vote it OUT of the constitution.
he is submitting a voter referendum in 2006 to get rid of the mandatory cap on class sizes, with support from the teachers union.
but, like the snake to eve, in a single sentance at the end of the press release, he said the sallery increase would not be included in the voter referendum, and would also be subject to legislature approval........
just like his brother, wave the education flag for the votes, and skuttle anything related to education when its time to ponie up.
Sources? I ask because I know someone else will.
I was going to quote all of your spelling errors to prove just how desperately education is needed. (Or conversely how even with the best education in the world, some people would still be fuck ups.) But I don't care enough.
Edited, Tue Feb 15 16:24:09 2005 by Miravelle
Edited, Tue Feb 15 16:24:09 2005 by Miravelle
Quote:
he pitted the teachers union against parents by delcaring he would raise the minimum sallery for teachers to 35,000 dollars a year if the restriction on class sizes, voted into the constitution, if voters would vote it OUT of the constitution.
If this is your edited version, hoo boy.
Next time include the link so that we all can read it for ourselves, seeing as how it's actually an interesting topic.
Lady Miravelle wrote:
I was going to quote all of your spelling errors to prove just how desperately education is needed. (Or conversely how even with the best education in the world, some people would still be fuck ups.) But I don't care enough.
And that would have immediately made you a loser.
Then I'm glad I refrained. 
source,
sun sentinel of Ft. lauderdale, front page.
---------------------------------------------------------------
the problem is there is no political will to fund education as it should be funded. the people with the most money in florida are retiree,s. and the rest of the people with money send their kids to private schools.
both these groups do not want to pay for the education of other peoples kids, and would rather see property taxes reduced rather than incresed to pay for it.
fortunatly, enough concerned parents, along with the teachers union at the time, banded together to put a voter referendum to the state constitution on the ballot, and tey won.
end of storie, right? problem solved.
well, getting it in the constitution means nothing if the leaders of this state have no intention of honoring the peoples wishes. this is a perfect example of how little controll the MAJORITY of people have over the leaders of our government.
it is time for another tea party. we should have mass recalls all over this country. we should take our country back, state by state.
or, go back to grazing in the fields like we did during the last election.....lucky for me, i can afford private school. how about you?
sun sentinel of Ft. lauderdale, front page.
---------------------------------------------------------------
the problem is there is no political will to fund education as it should be funded. the people with the most money in florida are retiree,s. and the rest of the people with money send their kids to private schools.
both these groups do not want to pay for the education of other peoples kids, and would rather see property taxes reduced rather than incresed to pay for it.
fortunatly, enough concerned parents, along with the teachers union at the time, banded together to put a voter referendum to the state constitution on the ballot, and tey won.
end of storie, right? problem solved.
well, getting it in the constitution means nothing if the leaders of this state have no intention of honoring the peoples wishes. this is a perfect example of how little controll the MAJORITY of people have over the leaders of our government.
it is time for another tea party. we should have mass recalls all over this country. we should take our country back, state by state.
or, go back to grazing in the fields like we did during the last election.....lucky for me, i can afford private school. how about you?
Because I care. Linky
Lady Miravelle wrote:
Then I'm glad I refrained.
And for fu[/i]ck's sake, if you're going to break the fu[i]cking swear filter fu[i][/i]cking do it right.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
I'm using the WoW template. It hadn't occured to me until just now that for most people the text is black. My apologies.
What does color have to do with breaking the swear filter anyways? God, some of you people are slow.
shadowrelm, this thread at least has a body to it, but your failure to provide a source/cite/link negates that.
shadowrelm, this thread at least has a body to it, but your failure to provide a source/cite/link negates that.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
Well, I'm new. I'll just refrain from cursing until I can do it the "right" way.
I like this avatar better. Your other one was missing a pool of blood, I thought.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
The full image was rather nice, but it loses a lot after cropping.
Original
Edited, Tue Feb 15 16:50:47 2005 by Miravelle
Original
Edited, Tue Feb 15 16:50:47 2005 by Miravelle
Yeah, just the heavy eye makeup + vacuous blank expression = put a pool of blood under her head and it all makes sense.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
I know I've said this before, but Ima say it again:
Sammy, you're so cute. Can I keep you?
Sammy, you're so cute. Can I keep you?
Scary thing is that I was thinking the exact same thing... ;)
As to the scarier thing (ie: shadow's post):
Once you understand the true evil that is the Teachers Union, you'll view this in a totally different light. I'm only slightly exagerrating when I say that Union is probably 90% responsible for the total crap that is public education in the US. Not that Jeb's plan is brilliant by any means, but if he can get out of the classroom size restriction *and* not have to give raises to those guys, the people will be ahead just a tiny bit.
It's not the size of the classrooms that are the problem folks. While it *can* be tied to poor education, it's a side issue. My tiny little private school I went to had 40+ student class sizes pretty standard, yet was a really good school.
The Teachers Union wants smaller class sizes, not for any education benefit, but because smaller class sizes means more classes. More classes means more teachers. More teachers means more money and power for the union. It's really that simple. Of course, what usually happens is that since you can't magically make more class sessions in a day, "non-essential" courses end up being dropped when you legistlatively mandate smaller class sizes (cause the school day is the same lenth, and the shools physically have the same number of rooms, so something's gotta give, right?).
Wanna know why there's been a trend recently where art and music and drama have been dropped from school curriculum? It's because of mandated classroom sizes. But no one thinks about that when they pass those laws...
As to the scarier thing (ie: shadow's post):
Once you understand the true evil that is the Teachers Union, you'll view this in a totally different light. I'm only slightly exagerrating when I say that Union is probably 90% responsible for the total crap that is public education in the US. Not that Jeb's plan is brilliant by any means, but if he can get out of the classroom size restriction *and* not have to give raises to those guys, the people will be ahead just a tiny bit.
It's not the size of the classrooms that are the problem folks. While it *can* be tied to poor education, it's a side issue. My tiny little private school I went to had 40+ student class sizes pretty standard, yet was a really good school.
The Teachers Union wants smaller class sizes, not for any education benefit, but because smaller class sizes means more classes. More classes means more teachers. More teachers means more money and power for the union. It's really that simple. Of course, what usually happens is that since you can't magically make more class sessions in a day, "non-essential" courses end up being dropped when you legistlatively mandate smaller class sizes (cause the school day is the same lenth, and the shools physically have the same number of rooms, so something's gotta give, right?).
Wanna know why there's been a trend recently where art and music and drama have been dropped from school curriculum? It's because of mandated classroom sizes. But no one thinks about that when they pass those laws...
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
The Teachers Union wants smaller class sizes, not for any education benefit, but because smaller class sizes means more classes.
You do realize that research done by people who couldn't give a damn about the union has proven that smaller class size = better grades?
I'll try to find a link over Google. My mom (god that sounds lame) is a graduate student for a professor who has apparently done research on the subject. It's just a matter of me finding it.
EDIT: http://www.gse.buffalo.edu/RP/Finn.html
You can take the title of his papers, many of which are on that subject. You probably have better access to that information then me.
I'm too lazy to look it up.
Edited, Tue Feb 15 20:21:34 2005 by CBD
Wait! A school that presumably makes money teaching teachers has no vested interest in whether or not smaller class sizes are "better"?
You're kidding right? Do I need to draw a map here?
You're kidding right? Do I need to draw a map here?
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Here. First relevant hit on google:
http://www.edreform.com/index.cfm?fuseAction=document&documentID=710
They mention a couple other things, but definately focus on class size being pretty insignificant in terms of value across the board. Basically, when you do pilot programs with a focus on small class sizes, the fact that this is a program means you've usually got more attentive teachers there (and more attention to the curriculum in general). You could litterally do a pilot program where you simply painted the walls a different color and you'd get statistically better results purely because it's a program that's getting a lot of focus. That does not mean that changing the color of the walls in every classroom in the nation will actually make students do better across the board.
What every single study (and simple logic) has shown is that student performance is most directly related to teacher quality. That's it. No magic bullets here folks. If you've got a bunch of crappy teachers, their students wont learn much.
If you think that unions generate a higher percentage of high quality workers then non-union professions, then I guess we've got no problems, right?
I'm serious here. We could improve education in one swoop simply be eliminating the Teachers Union and forcing teachers and schools to be competitive. That's what's broken with our education system.
http://www.edreform.com/index.cfm?fuseAction=document&documentID=710
They mention a couple other things, but definately focus on class size being pretty insignificant in terms of value across the board. Basically, when you do pilot programs with a focus on small class sizes, the fact that this is a program means you've usually got more attentive teachers there (and more attention to the curriculum in general). You could litterally do a pilot program where you simply painted the walls a different color and you'd get statistically better results purely because it's a program that's getting a lot of focus. That does not mean that changing the color of the walls in every classroom in the nation will actually make students do better across the board.
What every single study (and simple logic) has shown is that student performance is most directly related to teacher quality. That's it. No magic bullets here folks. If you've got a bunch of crappy teachers, their students wont learn much.
If you think that unions generate a higher percentage of high quality workers then non-union professions, then I guess we've got no problems, right?
I'm serious here. We could improve education in one swoop simply be eliminating the Teachers Union and forcing teachers and schools to be competitive. That's what's broken with our education system.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
Wait! A school that presumably makes money teaching teachers has no vested interest in whether or not smaller class sizes are "better"?
You're kidding right? Do I need to draw a map here?
You're kidding right? Do I need to draw a map here?
Last I checked, Dr. Finn, who did the research, gets jacksh[b][/b]it if UB gets more students. They aren't going to say, 10 years from now, that the guy should get a bonus because he did research that smaller class sizes makes better grades.
For the sake of clarification:
The research Dr. Finn did in Buffalo gave some teachers smaller class sizes at the expense of the class sizes of other teachers. Also, the Buffalo School District is the last district to ever consider hiring more teachers, or having smaller class sizes, therefore there's no way in hell he was paid off.
I'm eagerly awaiting your 2 page response to this post, although your last one was frighteningly short.
CBD wrote:
For the sake of clarification:
The research Dr. Finn did in Buffalo gave some teachers smaller class sizes at the expense of the class sizes of other teachers. Also, the Buffalo School District is the last district to ever consider hiring more teachers, or having smaller class sizes, therefore there's no way in hell he was paid off.
Sure. And as was touched upon both in my post and in the link I provided. Which teachers were chosen to be in the smaller classrooms? The "good" teachers? Or the "crappy" teachers?
Think about it, and you'll understand why tests of class programs like that can easily have skewed results. If they picked their 5 best teachers to have smaller classes, then those classes will show an increase in student learning, doubly so if then compared to the other classes which are not only larger in relation, but have a higher percentage of mediocre to crappy teachers in them.
It's all about statistics.
The only correct way to assess class size would be to arbitrarily remove say 30% of the students (randomly) from a school and send them somewhere else. Then take the exact same teachers in the exact same school in the exact same classrooms with the exact same curriculum and see how they compare over time. Assuming the student trimming was truly random (and didn't include a disproportionately higher percentage of troublemakers and/or just plain poor student), then you'd have an accurate test. You'd also have to figure out a way to measure results, since you will no longer have a direct control to compare to (you've changed the school itself, so you can't use it, and other classes at other schools may not be accurate).
My point is that from a scientific point of view, the tests used to determine that class size was such a huge deal are horribly inaccurate. They would never stand up to any sort of real review, but we use them to make broad policy changes nationwide.
What is "real" is the fact that other nations, with larger class sizes still out perform our students at every turn. What is "real" is that private schools, often with much larger classroom sizes outperform public schools at every turn. While I tend to agree that if everything else is equal, a smaller class size will help, it's not the magic bullet everyone seems to think it is.
The biggest factors really are having teachers who want to teach, and students who want to learn. The greater your percentage of both of those in a classroom setting, the more successful the classroom will be. Just making smaller classes, if nothing else is done, wont have any significant postive effect. In fact, due to the way this is done, it's having a negative effect since it means we either have to build more schools, or cut the curriculum in order to allow for fewer students per class session.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji,
rofl, this "research group" was formed in 2000 for the sole purpose of pushing the republicans education reform package.
in it, you will find plugs for taking schools off public funds and makint them private, or partially private in the form of "charter schools"
you will find plugs on the voucher system, and some ver batim quotes from washington insiders trying to puch them, the same way they are trying to chop up Social Security, by saying...its oh tay. its not a bad thing. the bad rumors you hear are from the bad naysayers (anyone not supporting the plan) and have no merit.
this and a few other web sites plugged with key words to push them to the top of search engines, were a big part of the 2000 republican push that untimatly failed and withered down into the "no child left behind" bill.
my hats off to you on your biased connections. but Texas is a perfect example of the failure of the voucher system, and charter schools (read for profit), are failing all across the country because americans bough and paid for an education system adn will be damned before they see it turn into a "only those with money learn" system like the health package bush shoved down your throats....which, btw, is also failing because no one trusts HMO,s, and you have to join one to get the perscription benifits.
----------------------------------------------------------------
that said, you will not find any public school teacher who will say class size is not a problem and impedement to learning.
your link is propaganda. republican propaganda. bought and paid for with republican committee funding.
you have 30 to 40 kids in a class, and one falls a bit behind, he is SCREWED. the teacher has to either ignore the rest of the students to help him, or sacrifice the one for the many.
if you look at the demographics in any city under this "no child left behind" plan. all your "A" schools are in well off communities. and all your "f" schools are in poor districts.
why? are they just dumber?
no. becuase in classrooms all across america now, the teaching is done at home. my first grader goes to school and copies assignmetns form a black board. then she comes home for my wife and i to teach her how to do it. the only teaching going on in class rooms now is the F-CAT test. the rest is spit out in assignments, run over once quickly, then left to finnish at home.
in homes where there are single working parents, or where both parents work full time, and there is not enough time to dedicate 2 to 3 hours to go over home work.....PER CHILD.....they fall behind. solely because of their social-economic situation, and not because of their ability.
between my first grader and kindergarten, my wife and i spend 4 ot 5 hours a day doing homework. it shows too, my first grader is in gifted classes, and teh younger one is getting all high marks and will be tested for gifted this year.
there is not enough time to actually TEACH in the class rooms because of the class sized. education has evolved in this country to an after thought of government. now the teaching is done at home, and assignements are handed out in school instead of taught.
and if you dont understand something? hopefully your parents have the time to help you or can afford a tutor.
if you are poor, you are SCREWED. and if you are in a pooor community, your school gets SHORT FUNDED as punishement for not making the grade.....which leads to more underachieving.....which leads to less funds.....which leads to more underachieveing....etc.
there is no political will to fix education. the people with money and influcence dont have a problem, and dont care if you do.
we fixed it in florida by FORCING our government ot deal with it by making it a part of our state constitution. now, the republican machine, instead of fixing the problem, is trying to undermine the support for fixing the problem by bribing the teachers and pitting them against parents to get rid of the mandate to fix the system.
wooot, 2 more years......of ******** the poor.......
and to people making less than 80,000 a year who voted republican.......YOU ARE GETTING WHAT YOU DESERVE FOR BEING IGNORANT......to bad the rest of us are getting what YOU deserve too....
the republican party is for big bussiness and the rich...they are not for the other 80 percent of the population.
this attempt to undermine Floridas education system is just another example
Jeb Bush, DID however, eliminate the state tax on beer and wine to the tune of almost 50 million a year from Floridas bank. making people who sell alcohol is a higher priority than educating our population. the republican dream. mo money for those who have money, ***** the rest of you.
rofl, this "research group" was formed in 2000 for the sole purpose of pushing the republicans education reform package.
in it, you will find plugs for taking schools off public funds and makint them private, or partially private in the form of "charter schools"
you will find plugs on the voucher system, and some ver batim quotes from washington insiders trying to puch them, the same way they are trying to chop up Social Security, by saying...its oh tay. its not a bad thing. the bad rumors you hear are from the bad naysayers (anyone not supporting the plan) and have no merit.
this and a few other web sites plugged with key words to push them to the top of search engines, were a big part of the 2000 republican push that untimatly failed and withered down into the "no child left behind" bill.
my hats off to you on your biased connections. but Texas is a perfect example of the failure of the voucher system, and charter schools (read for profit), are failing all across the country because americans bough and paid for an education system adn will be damned before they see it turn into a "only those with money learn" system like the health package bush shoved down your throats....which, btw, is also failing because no one trusts HMO,s, and you have to join one to get the perscription benifits.
----------------------------------------------------------------
that said, you will not find any public school teacher who will say class size is not a problem and impedement to learning.
your link is propaganda. republican propaganda. bought and paid for with republican committee funding.
you have 30 to 40 kids in a class, and one falls a bit behind, he is SCREWED. the teacher has to either ignore the rest of the students to help him, or sacrifice the one for the many.
if you look at the demographics in any city under this "no child left behind" plan. all your "A" schools are in well off communities. and all your "f" schools are in poor districts.
why? are they just dumber?
no. becuase in classrooms all across america now, the teaching is done at home. my first grader goes to school and copies assignmetns form a black board. then she comes home for my wife and i to teach her how to do it. the only teaching going on in class rooms now is the F-CAT test. the rest is spit out in assignments, run over once quickly, then left to finnish at home.
in homes where there are single working parents, or where both parents work full time, and there is not enough time to dedicate 2 to 3 hours to go over home work.....PER CHILD.....they fall behind. solely because of their social-economic situation, and not because of their ability.
between my first grader and kindergarten, my wife and i spend 4 ot 5 hours a day doing homework. it shows too, my first grader is in gifted classes, and teh younger one is getting all high marks and will be tested for gifted this year.
there is not enough time to actually TEACH in the class rooms because of the class sized. education has evolved in this country to an after thought of government. now the teaching is done at home, and assignements are handed out in school instead of taught.
and if you dont understand something? hopefully your parents have the time to help you or can afford a tutor.
if you are poor, you are SCREWED. and if you are in a pooor community, your school gets SHORT FUNDED as punishement for not making the grade.....which leads to more underachieving.....which leads to less funds.....which leads to more underachieveing....etc.
there is no political will to fix education. the people with money and influcence dont have a problem, and dont care if you do.
we fixed it in florida by FORCING our government ot deal with it by making it a part of our state constitution. now, the republican machine, instead of fixing the problem, is trying to undermine the support for fixing the problem by bribing the teachers and pitting them against parents to get rid of the mandate to fix the system.
wooot, 2 more years......of ******** the poor.......
and to people making less than 80,000 a year who voted republican.......YOU ARE GETTING WHAT YOU DESERVE FOR BEING IGNORANT......to bad the rest of us are getting what YOU deserve too....
the republican party is for big bussiness and the rich...they are not for the other 80 percent of the population.
this attempt to undermine Floridas education system is just another example
Jeb Bush, DID however, eliminate the state tax on beer and wine to the tune of almost 50 million a year from Floridas bank. making people who sell alcohol is a higher priority than educating our population. the republican dream. mo money for those who have money, ***** the rest of you.
gbaji wrote:
Sure. And as was touched upon both in my post and in the link I provided. Which teachers were chosen to be in the smaller classrooms? The "good" teachers? Or the "crappy" teachers?
Both teachers and students were randomly chosen from a list, without any previous knowledge on grades, or teaching habits.
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