Well I've been ponderin' this here subject for a while now, and figured I would ask the folks here at the asylum for opinions. So tell me as the title suggests, do we have free will? Tell your thoughts.
Does causality exist? If so, in what form. Is there only materials and random movement affecting our "choices"? or do we make choices seperate from physical limitations? Is reality contained soley within objects or can there be ideas as well?
Most importantly, is it possible to change the future? Obviously we feel we make choices at times, but could that all be an illusion, and fate actually be pre written for us, binding us to make decisions no matter what?
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Quit bein' a 'tard you FFXI moran. You always have a choice.
I think causality may change as you ramp up the physics realm. While a car may be predictable to within miliseconds as it rolls along (still perhaps not totally deterministic), a subatomic particle may be unpredictable as it does its thing. The small may translate to the large over time, causing exponentially lower cases of nondeterminism, and/or there could be a threshhold at which point larger-scale physics can be called deterministic, if described in relation to that lower threshhold only.
I don't know enough about physics to tell either way. But I do reckon brain chemistry and neurons and such are more prone to the chaotic indeterminate than the determinate. And if brains are the "self" then I don't think we necessarily are without free will. This would suppose we could somehow control subatomic or other physical effects that would change from their normal chaos into certain positions/state-changes that we desire, and perhaps we can.
Though, aside from the academic discussion, I don't think it really matters. If we have the perception of free will, that's enough to say we have free will at the moment. If I feel I have a choice, I have a choice. The semblance of free will can still survive in a deterministic Universe if the self is distinct enough to be sentient. Even if all choice is predetermined, the perception is what matters individually. The objective reality is rather secondary to the subjective in this case (for the personally-relevant aspects of the question.)
I don't know enough about physics to tell either way. But I do reckon brain chemistry and neurons and such are more prone to the chaotic indeterminate than the determinate. And if brains are the "self" then I don't think we necessarily are without free will. This would suppose we could somehow control subatomic or other physical effects that would change from their normal chaos into certain positions/state-changes that we desire, and perhaps we can.
Though, aside from the academic discussion, I don't think it really matters. If we have the perception of free will, that's enough to say we have free will at the moment. If I feel I have a choice, I have a choice. The semblance of free will can still survive in a deterministic Universe if the self is distinct enough to be sentient. Even if all choice is predetermined, the perception is what matters individually. The objective reality is rather secondary to the subjective in this case (for the personally-relevant aspects of the question.)
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But I do reckon brain chemistry and neurons and such are more prone to the chaotic indeterminate than the determinate
I guess what I meant was, is there a way for us to control these neurons and quarks moving around that affect things, or are we controled by them.
Say a neuron fires prompting the muscles in my leg to spasm and kick someone in the face, did I make the neuron fire, or did it happen randomly?
Oh and Palpitus, I would be interested in what you think of Heisenburg's uncertianty principle :)
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Most importantly, is it possible to change the future?
Twiztid
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
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I hope that, one day, you can understand how insanely idiotic and stupid this question is
;_;
Is that because you think that whatever the furture turns out to be is the only thing that can happen because it is the only thing that did and thus speaking of changing the future is moot?
Quit being so pensive.
Pensive wrote:
I guess what I meant was, is there a way for us to control these neurons and quarks moving around that affect things, or are we controled by them.
Say a neuron fires prompting the muscles in my leg to spasm and kick someone in the face, did I make the neuron fire, or did it happen randomly?
Say a neuron fires prompting the muscles in my leg to spasm and kick someone in the face, did I make the neuron fire, or did it happen randomly?
Yeah, that's the question. For the leg-kick I'd say it was not determinate, but a very long progression of indeterminate actions from your birth or prior, possibly to the beginning of the Universe. Not that we control it, but that at the time of our birth (for an example of a timestamp) it was perhaps up in the air that it would happen. A series of decisions we (and other sentients or chaotic particles in the Universe) made led to our leg/nerves being in that state at that time and it happened.
If you roll a boulder off a cliff, you can predetermine with near certainty (if the Universe doesn't do anything crazy) that it'll hit the bottom. Get closer to the bottom, or less time, and you can determine the landing spot more accurately. Get further away and your prediction goes more awry. Get WAY far away, and something in the Universe might happen unexpectedly to thwart it even hitting the bottom. Perhaps a sapling grows into a tree and the tree falls between the boulder and the spot it would've hit.
Even if you push it from one foot though, while you can say it'll certainly hit the bottom, and be very accurate in the spot, you can't tell exactly the spin, the particles breaking off, etc. I'd liken that to our leg tic--the further back in time we go the harder it is to determine exactly where it'll "land", if it lands at all. It could be impossible at some point back, or it could be impossible to determine precisely where it'll be at any point, even a millisecond back may provide more than enough chaos to make it non-predetermined. The question then is--how long a drop is it, between event A and event B, according to the substrate of Universal determinist/nondeterminist qualities?
The Universe seems orderly and chaotic at the same time, but of different quality depending on how micro or macro one gets. This is the analogy I see that still gives us free will within a chaotic but fairly orderly Universe. Even if we don't have free will, perhaps a micro quality of our perceptual thought process does, in that it's nondeterminate. Or perhaps our thoughts themselves are the time-stamp of predeterminism, but as they cascade and are themselves chaotic, we're constantly shifting the time-stamp.
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Oh and Palpitus, I would be interested in what you think of Heisenburg's uncertianty principle :)
I've heard of it but don't know what it is. Is that the one with the cat in the box? I'm just a pseudo-philosopher, if that's not readily apparent. ;)
hehe I think your talking about chaos theory now, but I don't want to begin talk on that
Heisenburgs uncertianty is the idea that if you are absolutely positive of somthing position, you cannot be sure of its direction, ie if somthing is absolutely still, you can't see where its moving and vice versa.
Heisenburgs uncertianty is the idea that if you are absolutely positive of somthing position, you cannot be sure of its direction, ie if somthing is absolutely still, you can't see where its moving and vice versa.
Pensive wrote:
hehe I think your talking about chaos theory now, but I don't want to begin talk on that
LOL, I do tend to ramble way too much, sorry about that. I think chaos theory may prove to be indispensible to a philosophy of free will though. Or if it proves ultimately orderly, to a deterministic theory.
I can't think of any other scientific thing that could sway free will either way, except perhaps true AI. Or that hypothetical experiment of transfering a brain to a machine atom by atom--would it retain free will? Or if we could reduce the machine to components and predict them, is free will kiboshed for both it and humans?
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Heisenburgs uncertianty is the idea that if you are absolutely positive of somthing position, you cannot be sure of its direction, ie if somthing is absolutely still, you can't see where its moving and vice versa.
Ah, is that used in physics? And if you're sure of its direction you can't be sure of its position? I can't fathom an opinion based on my limited knowledge. (not that it stops me elsewhere, but... :) )
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Well I've been ponderin' this here subject for a while now, and figured I would ask the folks here at the asylum for opinions. So tell me as the title suggests, do we have free will? Tell your thoughts.
Does causality exist? If so, in what form. Is there only materials and random movement affecting our "choices"? or do we make choices seperate from physical limitations? Is reality contained soley within objects or can there be ideas as well?
Most importantly, is it possible to change the future? Obviously we feel we make choices at times, but could that all be an illusion, and for us, binding us to make decisions no matter what?
Does causality exist? If so, in what form. Is there only materials and random movement affecting our "choices"? or do we make choices seperate from physical limitations? Is reality contained soley within objects or can there be ideas as well?
Most importantly, is it possible to change the future? Obviously we feel we make choices at times, but could that all be an illusion, and for us, binding us to make decisions no matter what?
Fucking idiot.
Free choice: you always have one even if that choice is nothing more than giving up.
Causality: is the relation between causes and effects. Something happens that affects something else, what the hell else are you whining about?
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Is it possible to change the future?
The future hasn't happened yet. How do you affect something that hasn't happened?
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fate actually be pre written (sic)
There is no such thing as fate. There is such a thing as knowing what the outcome of your dumbass decision will be, but that’s not fate that’s single minded stupidity.
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Say a neuron fires prompting the muscles in my leg to spasm and kick someone in the face, did I make the neuron fire, or did it happen randomly?
If it happened randomly I suggest a lot of apologizing, a beer on you, and a trip to a neurologist because your *** has neurological problems.
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Heisenburgs uncertianty is the idea that if you are absolutely positive of somthing position, you cannot be sure of its direction, ie if somthing is absolutely still, you can't see where its moving and vice versa.
You are talking about the position and spin of atoms, you need to stop thinking of thinking, feeling sentient beings as nothing more than abstract matter and grow the fuck up.
You also need to take a decent college level philosophy class and let the teacher smack your dumb *** around.
Drugs are bad, m'kay?
Specially when you sit there and cause a psychological meltdown.
Specially when you sit there and cause a psychological meltdown.
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Well I've been ponderin' this here subject for a while now, and figured I would ask the folks here at the asylum for opinions. So tell me as the title suggests, do we have free will? Tell your thoughts.
Does causality exist? If so, in what form. Is there only materials and random movement affecting our "choices"? or do we make choices seperate from physical limitations? Is reality contained soley within objects or can there be ideas as well?
Most importantly, is it possible to change the future? Obviously we feel we make choices at times, but could that all be an illusion, and fate actually be pre written for us, binding us to make decisions no matter what?
Does causality exist? If so, in what form. Is there only materials and random movement affecting our "choices"? or do we make choices seperate from physical limitations? Is reality contained soley within objects or can there be ideas as well?
Most importantly, is it possible to change the future? Obviously we feel we make choices at times, but could that all be an illusion, and fate actually be pre written for us, binding us to make decisions no matter what?
Back to the original post. I won't bother with the name-calling because I'm not really in the mood for it today.
What your question really seems to boil down to is whether we're all following some sort of script or if we're just making this up as we go. The causality of inanimate objects really isn't a factor here, because we don't care about the interactions between those objects unless and until those interactions should affect us.
There's a larger question lurking behind your query about choices, though. The next progessive question behind either answer (no matter whether it is inequivocably YES or NO) is WHY?
WHY are we locked into a set pattern of behavior?
WHY are we free to make our own choices?
Again, the answers are not relevant. It is the questions that point the way. The questions light the path and reveal yet an even larger question.
Is there a God? Does there exist some entity or force which works or has worked its will to bring all of this about?
That, my brother, is your real question. Determine the answer to whether there is a God or not. Once you know that, the other questions no longer matter. At that point, you already have the answers.
silly silly humans, dwelling in the tangles of logic that you have woven around yourselves... All of your struggling will only wrap you up tighter. In reality it doesn't matter waht side of the line you fall on, it is the same ground.
there is no god. the only predetermining factors of the human condition are our genes. everything else is a learned response to stimuli.
..unless it's not.
Gitslayer, you wound me, and Exodus, for the record, I can honestly say I have never done any drugs before.
I'm really not sure what I said wrong here. Did I come across as arrogant? I certianly wasn't trying to do so; I was just trying to obtain oppinions on a subject that I cannot answer for myself at this point in time.
Yes, exactly, this was what I was trying to ask in the first place, and I thank you for managing to understand that.
Right, I completely understand that. My only original purpose for posting this here was to try and get different points of view so that I may better come to this very decision. I just want to try and consider each choice before I were to make one.
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what the hell else are you whining about?
I'm really not sure what I said wrong here. Did I come across as arrogant? I certianly wasn't trying to do so; I was just trying to obtain oppinions on a subject that I cannot answer for myself at this point in time.
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What your question really seems to boil down to is whether we're all following some sort of script or if we're just making this up as we go
Yes, exactly, this was what I was trying to ask in the first place, and I thank you for managing to understand that.
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The next progessive question behind either answer (no matter whether it is inequivocably YES or NO) is WHY?
Right, I completely understand that. My only original purpose for posting this here was to try and get different points of view so that I may better come to this very decision. I just want to try and consider each choice before I were to make one.
If you do not choose to do something then what chooses it for you? I could do a million things right now.. But I will choose to do one.. Time to hit the post button
Free Willy! Free MY Willy! Yep, I guess I believe in that free stuff.
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