To those who believe in the "American Dream"Follow

Well, Totem, times change, wouldn't you agree? The simple fact is, so many daily activities that are necessary in having a life where one can salvage some dignity, these things are a basic necessity. First off, if someone is too poor to afford these basic necessities, in the United States, this day in age, chanced are they are not some independent living off their own land, hunting their own food. Chances are these people will be in an urban environment, without access to the necessary tools, skills and funds capable of living such a life.

If someone cannot afford these basic necessities this day in age (since now it is the majority and not just the rich that have access to them) it is a good indication of just how poor they really are.

Our society nowadays is geared towards assuming that everyone has access to these basic necessities to get through their daily routines.

Is it ok for poverty-ridden parents, or single parents, not to have access to these things for their children? What kind of a childhood is that kid going to have?

Let's take running water. Do you seriously think this should not be considered a basic necessity this day in age? Can't buy bottled water, certainly not enough money. Should the kids go out and try and find a lake or a pool or a river after work to find water to bathe in so that the kids at school don't make fun of them for smelling? I'm sure they'll still have a wonderful childhood if they just toughen up and take it! Afterall, they are survivors, not whiny little babies.

What about a single person? Given that there aren';t too many accessible wells around the city, he might have to go fetch his water from a tap in a fast food restaurant. Lets hope he has some big bottles to fill em up so he doesn't have to come back for at least a day! Or maybe he should go try and find a lake that hasn't yet been dumped full of toxins and then boil his water because those restaraunts are sick of him using their bathroom. But then he'd have to get some wood or something that will burn long enough to boil his water. But is it legal to cut down trees or brake off branches? Maybe he got a ticket by a cop from dumping his **** down a sewar out front of his house. Maybe his neighbours simply look at him with dissaproval for doing such things, not knowing what exactly he is going through.

What will he do during winter? I guess he could go down to the shelter that actually has heat since he doesn't have a fireplace in his one room apartment. If he has kids he could bring them there and stay for a few months. Afterall, they will SURVIVE. That's all that matters, isn't it?


The fact is your grandparents grew up in a time and place where they were taught and more able to grow up and survive in such circumstances. They probably grew up in a home with many family members who were able to help and provide what they could to survive. They probably had access to heating (fire and wood), water (a well), and an outhouse. Not only this, but it was acceptable for the majority. Nowadays, if you don't have electricity your probably also don't have access to some sort of fireplace or a readily available source of wood for that heating. It's a similar story with running water. How can you compare nowadays to the 1930s? It was a different time with different methods and readily availble tools and mechanisms to be able to have access to some of the basic necessities of a decent life.

You mean they can't get a few dollars together strumming a guitar on a corner and take a bus to somewhere where they can?

Totem wants us all to believe that since his sainted grandmother lived like a beggar child in Calcutta, every person living in the city who isn't making a living wage should migrate to the country where they can dig a fresh water well like the people of Alaska. Then they can walk into the city on weekends to take advantage of the free soup and libraries.

Laviont wrote:



I think the difference is that one has taken the time and expended the effort to be educated.

Too many people want to sit back and have life served to them on a platter. Fortunately it is but it's a ****** life.

If you want something better what is stopping you from having it? You are.

Not at all. Which is why I support helping those who don't live like I do instead of saying "Pfftt.. was good enough for my grandma to live without a working toilet!"

Nice try though.

Federal minimum wage is an asinine concept. Hell, state-wide minimum wage is just as bad. Is a 16 year old working a local pharmacy in Bath, NY expected to make the same as a kid working at Rite-Aid in Manhattan?

Anyways, I still don't know what this has to do with dying children in India, except that they're taking all our middle-wage white collar jobs.

What is your definition of significant? Most of the houses that don't have indoor plumbing or running water are actually a very small percentage of those states. What makes them noticable is that they are usually clumped together in the same geographic location.

Also the fact that there is information out there about these areas for you to find suggests that the situation is not considered acceptable, and attention has been brought to these severely poor regions in order to make things better. Maybe we haven't gotten running water or indoor plumbing to every home yet, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying.

You're right, indoor plumbing and running water are not required to survive (but then again, a house isn't required for survival either). But we're not worried about basic survival. There is a base standard of living that we should all have access to just on the basis of advancement in technology, culture and society. It's not a survival issue, but rather a quality of life issue. And if you feel that those who can't afford the basics that our advanced culture provides should just do without and go back to the quality of life that existed a hundred years ago, then I call you a sad example of a human being.

Out of curiosity, did your parents continue to live in a house with no plumbing or electricity, since you seem to paint such a rosy picture of that existence. Or did your grandparents, when given the chance to live in a house with these modern conveniences pass on the opportunity?

I suppose you also think that things such as antibiotics, immunizations, antiseptic and sterile medical proceedures should be available only for those who can afford it, as after all, we survived for thousands of years without them. Perhaps we should just take the poor and force them to adopt a scavenging, nomadic lifestyle? After all, humans survived that way before as well.

Times have changed we have now adapted to some of the goals and dreams our ancestors had for us. Arguing over toilets and electricity will get you nowhere.


The real question is, Now that you see a problem, what are we as America going to do to fix it?

The rich are going to get richer and the poor, poorer!

The sad thing is the same ideas and attitudes that several of the posters in this thread (totem, lefein, orionrokr) have put forth have been used in the past to create and justify horrendous systems such as Eugenics.

One would hope that we would learn from the mistakes in our past, but it's obvious that some continue to feel that a narrow, bigoted, elitist attitude is not only acceptable, but good and right.

We're fast approaching 2005, but some of these attitudes on display might as well have come from 1905.

Edited, Tue Dec 21 17:23:31 2004 by danreynolds

I'm not going to kid myself, there's no hope. Every country was built on the backs of slaves. All superfluous wealth is accumilated unfairly. Every castle had serfs toiling the fields for their owners, so that the owners would have free time to ponder their next plunder. The only way to be in the position to change this is to have a number of Robin Hood type people, that would penetrate the gates of wealth, by becoming wealthy themselves through obsenely hard work and comprimising of morals, and from there performing a task that would ruin their own wealth, just to put a dent in "the system". How many people would change their minds once they feel the deceptive caresses of the almighty dollar? Damn near all of them so far. It is easier to fit a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven.

I would not say a SIGNIFICANT portion of those states are without plumbing and electricity, mainly the mountain people and it is by thier own choice. Oh and the Amish.

/nods

Mlynn gets it. RACK her.

Totem