Freedom from Religion: A observation of modern day accultismFollow

So, today I go to my mailbox and see a fat envelope waiting for me, hand addressed. So, I examine it and see that it's from my parents. I open the envelope to see the small stack of papers which comprise the letter. The seventeen page letter. My mother wrote me a 17 page letter detailing why it is I should believe in God. The irony maks me laugh a little, but you won't get it until I explain a little more.

See, my mother and father had always been extremely liberal when it came to the subject of religion. Their personal idea was that it was more important to have a rough idea of something related to faith, but not to become a true "believer" because beliefs become rigid, and impossible to change. They also start to build defenses which are eventually used to attack something else. Their philosophy was similar to that expressed in the movie Dogma. This was the sort of religious climate I was raised in, which allowed me quite a bit of liberty to read about, learn about, and even participate in a number of different religions through an unbiased eye.

However, my mother and father began attending a church about 1 year ago, and it's almost terrifying how much they've changed. At first, my mother went solely for support since without me around due to school, my brother having moved out, and my dad working when he's not in the hospital, she's lonely. Fair enough. But seeing the way a church operates to draw people in is like reading a chapter in my social psych book about methods of exploitation and persuasion. She seemed a gullible candidate, and they appealed to her through low ball and foot in the door techniques. She needed a wall rebuilt on the side of our garage, and they came and did it. They then asked her for a pledge during their fundraiser, and she obeyed. Now she is working as a sunday school teacher, and goes to church on a nightly basis. She works tirelessly to get people to attend her church (because now even other Christian churches are evil). Even so, I'm more glad for her that she found a place to call her home away from hom.

I am not, however, glad that she seems to hate herself for allowing me religious freedom as a child. It makes me sad looking back at the times we would have theology discussions about different religions, and how they all had forms of validity and similarities. Now, if you attempt such a thing, she merely dismisses it as heretical BS opposing the "one true faith." That's something which also bothers me - her calling Christianity the "one true faith." There are quite literally thousands of different religions in existance. How can you know that if there is one true faith, that it would be yours? For all we know the one true faith could involve worshipping an invisible pink unicorn. Just because your religion is one of the "big three" doesn't make it correct - far from it. History is marked by times when the majority was wrong, just ask Copernicus.

But it doesn't bother me nearly as much as getting a letter telling me how much of a dissapointment I am to her that I don't accept that a carpenter who got hung on wood like a few million other people by Romans in antiquity was some sort of divine savior. It upsets me that religion, and her church, have clearly sucked her in using techniques no different from something you'd learn in a basic sales and advertising class. Now she seems to be one of those militant "bible bashers" that people talk about, and even make fun of. It's pathetic to me, and incredibly sad.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't see anything wrong with religion. It can work miracles, and the positive effects it has are tremendous. I personally just cannot see it as more than a fairy tale which gives life lessons. If you want to take it as your life's cornerstone, that's fine. I respect that and its your right. I won't even belittle it by calling it stupid because it's really not. But why can't she respect the fact that I choose not to? Why is my desire for freedom from religion wrong, and not considered to be freedom of religion?

I guess I should really get on with the point of this post... I'm sorry for rambling, but this has really been bothering me most of the day. People debate whether freedom of religion also entails freedom from religion. I personally feel that it does. Just as one can state that "even nothing is something" and justify it, and as one can state that zero is a number and justify it, I feel that a lack of religion can be considered as a provision of "freedom of religion." I feel justified that I believe I exist solely because the right sperm got to the egg, and now I'm here. I accept that when I die I will cease to exist in all forms. I just can't accept having someone who told me all of my life to have an open mind suddenly tell me that everything I've always believed was wrong. It kind of creates some dissonance.

So, what do you guys think about the freedom of/from religion debacle? Do you think that one side of the issue is more forceful in their actions than the other (ie: my mother crying that I don't have faith anymore in an attempt to guilt me into going to church with her)? Is one side more underhanded? What are your general opinions on what happened?

Try to keep this from becoming a flame war, I'm posting more to vent my frustration/sadness/anger than anything else. I'd just like to see your opinions on things.

Edit: fixed some errors, will re-edit tomorrow when it's not 6 am.

Edited, Wed Dec 8 06:30:24 2004 by scubamage

This is terrible news. You should consider yourself lucky your parents were so open minded when you were smaller. I know was was not.*cough* christian wackos *cough*

I've had countless battles over the subject of god with my parents. None of which could be considered civil, especially a fight we had in this one restaurant.

Freedom of religion kicks major ***. I feel that my parents christian side is way more forceful to me than my no beliefs are to them. That does not mean however I'm willing to back down. I think since I don't have a reason for life starting and don't have something as cool as heaven, they think I'm underhanded. For some reason if I don't have an answer for everything they think that makes them right by default.

I'm very sorry for your situation, sounds painfully similar my parents. Hope you can find some common ground were your mom will speak to you without going ******** about her faith.

Scub Im sorry to hear this. It has to be hard reading something like this from your mom. For what it's worth, I dont think a lot of what she said is true. Her being dissapointed in you is not your mom speaking, but her church speaking through her. I hope she realizes what she did here and figures out it was a mistake. Either way I wish you luck and know I think you nailed a lot of stuff down.



As for religion and freedom;

I am a pantheist. I believe in GOD but not A God. I think Jesus was a good guy but I dont see why he is different from so many people who do so much good out there as well. I think he had a lesson for us to learn, but I Do not think he was "the child of God." More to the point, I thought we were all children of God.


Anyways, I have always been respecting of others beliefs and religions. I understand everyones opinions and ideas are their own. If it makes them happy and secure then it is a good thing. HOwever, I am truely sick and tired of being bombarded with people who feel I am damned to hell and I am an evil person, just for the fact I do not believe exactly what they do. I am tired of being disrespected for my own beliefs, when I have always respected others. I am tired of being told no matter how good I am,how much I give to charity ( I give a lot for children), how lovingly I raise my son, it is not enough and I am evil because I do not believe in the Christianity beliefs. I still respect peoples ideas, but it is wearing thin when I do not get the same respect in return.

Now our government is bringing religion into our system. I had alwaya believed our country was created with the seperation of church and State for a reason. Our country was made for people to have the "freedom" of religion. To be able to choose and worship their religion of choice. But each year Christianity is taking more and more of an active role in our country, and many are growing less tolerant of other (or no) faiths. We are slowly destroying what this country has stood for for centuries; freedom. How can we be a truely free country if their is only one religion to believe and all others are the devils work? How can we be good people when there is so much hatred against those who do not conform to this one religions ideas? Anyone who is gay is damned, even if it is genentic and not a choice. Even though GOD created them they are damned. If it is proven that being gay is not a choice but something they were born with will that mean that God has been proven to make "mistakes"? Or does that mean gays will be formally accepted into church? personally, I think the religion will gloss over that factor.
I think we need to take a step back in this country, and remember what our country's foundation was; freedom. Freedom of religion, freedom of persecution. In this day and age I do feel persecuted because I have a mind I use and believe differently from the masses. Does that make me evil? I dont think so. But I am being judged as evil and wrong and damned by most of America for using my mind and following my heart.

Dude, that's sad.

I'd freak out if my parents caught the religion bug like that. You can't get my old man into church with a stun gun and orderlies and my mother goes about twice a month just to show the locals that she's 'a good christian.'

Since you're not physically there, it will be hard to wean her away from the organization. If at all possible, get her started on some other social organization that provides a time sink as well as support. Maybe even a support group.

I won't debate any of you regarding this, so don't bother flaming. I am happy for your parents. You should be too.

Why are you happy when this mother now looks at her child with disappointment? you cant just make a statement like you did with no back up.

Explain your reasons so we understand where youre coming from.

Edited, Wed Dec 8 13:18:36 2004 by deadsidedemon

I can say whatever the fuck I want without explaining myself to anyone if I feel like it.

I think its great that your mom found some sort of purpose and direction in life besides just hanging out until she dies.

Instead of looking at this as her guilt tripping you into being a Christian, try to see it as her caring for you so much and having found something so wonderful that she just had to tell you.

Without reading the letter, its hard to see whether she crossed the line or not. There is a big difference between witnessing to people and shoving religion down their throat. Hopefully it was the first. Alot of new Christians have a very hard time conversing about what they have found and tend to waaaay overdue it.



I can understand that completely. That would trouble me as well.

To her right now, her lack of religious teaching in your younger years is the reason that she feels you will ultimately end up in hell. Parents exhibit the same behavior when children become drug addicts as well.

Know that what she said was not out of disappointment as much as it was out of love for you.

Thank Bob my parents don't give a rats *** about religon. I am not a religous person although I do attend a Church of England school. At my school I have never felt my views to be oppressed and I frequently enjoy discussions about religon and such in my Philosophy lessons, the teacher of which is a Christian and a Theology Graduate.

I have to attend a half hour assembly in St Matthews church which is very close to the school, but that's to be expected being a Christian school and all. My school is very accepting of all religous backgrounds though, with many Muslims, Hindus etc at my school.

I find it quite frightening to see the ranks of extreme Christian sects to be growing with such rapidity. From what I have heard many areas of America have problems with religous persecution the very problem the Pilgrim Fathers looked to escape. And anyone who believes America is a Christian nation is disrespectful to the foundations of America.

Britain is a Christian nation, obviously due to the formation of the Anglican church. But religon no longer carries much bearing over here, it is still a prominate figure in peoples lives but here in Britain things are extremely liberal which suits me fine. Even my teacher understands that the Bible has it's flaws and very little of it should be taken literally but it is the messages of 'Love thy Neighbour' and such.

Thankfully in Britain the Church and the State are completely seperate and thats how it should be. Government and Religon has no place together not under any circumstances. I do wonder though if the rise in Christian extremity is due to 9/11? The American public and it's governments hostility to 'outsiders' has put out a message of ignorance and bigotry to the rest of the world. And now messages of Religous extremity can only bring more bad feelings from the rest of the world.

I do hope your mother comes to here sense and sees the propaganda and brainwashing that she has fallen into, until then I hope she at least doesn't persecute you too much.

Very true.

Keep in mind that ANYTHING that you say to them will probably be easily pawned off as Satan talking.

Christianity is designed to be self preserving and it does a doozy of a job, esspecially when it comes to volatile minds. It is designed so that no matter WAHT, they can always turn your reasoning back on you and just tell you that Christ is the Way and if you don't believe it than you are going to Hell.

Yeah, changing the conversation is the way to go. But if they are THAT much into it, than it won't matter. You will have to somehow make them accept that their Son is going to Hell.

Just tell them that if God truly is in command that His Will Be Done, and if you belong in Hell, then you will be there.

The scary thing about that is their Love for you will compel them to combat this to every end.


I suggest reminding them that THEy themselves weren't "saved" wehn they were YOUR age. Tell them to let nature take it's course and 'maybe' one day you will see the light as they have.

If they still insist on badgering you about it, ask them if they aren't jsut trying to get "Brownie Points" with their Church. See if that won't shut them up.

First off,

I touch a nerve or something here? Chill out a bit. I wanst trying to be a ***** I was imply saying, that you need to post your whys for your post so we can better understand where you are coming from. If you want the opinion to have weight then let us know your reasonings.

Second,




laviont, I think this is the best post you have written when it comes to religion. Even I, a non christian, get this and agree with it. I personally do not need to believe in Christianity to get that zen like feeling, but if others have that as their support and can find it I respect it very much.

I feel most of us non christians ( or no faith) have the gripe, that Christians try to push their belief too hard. None of us like having our doors bashed in once a month with people trying to save souls. It almsot seems like they have a monthly quota of souls to save or theyre not a good christian. If Christians really followed their faith they way we are preached at, and sat back without harassing the rest of us, I have a feeling you would pull in a lot more people then the way the religios order goes about it now. When they ppush too hard, we cringe away, as opposed to being pulled in. That last quote was pricelss and I wish everyone of the faith could keep that in their head. Rate up

Here is what I believe.

Do not take this personally. These are my beliefs.

I do believe there is a God, but I feel that it is rather conceited of man to believe that man was created in God's image. God likely takes on a form that is unfathomable to man.

I do not believe in Christ. I don't believe he was the Son of God, and I do not believe he ever lived even as a man. I was born and raised a Catholic, but I denounced all Christianity shortly before Confirmation after doing some study on an old Roman religion that worshipped a deity called Mithra.

I believe that religion was used as an instrument to control the masses and to explain the unexplainable. There is no other fathomable purpose for it. The end result is a tool to wage war. Name a war that was not started or a genocide that was not committed because of conflicting religious beliefs, and I will give extra credit points.

I believe that The Ten Commandments are an instrument of hate. Furthermore, I believe that Christianity is a contradiction upon itself because it worships two deities, which is expressly forbidden by The Ten Commandments.

I believe that the Holy Bible is an instrument of hate, and I also believe that the majority in at least eleven states are bigots for refusing homosexuals the same rights as heterosexuals.

I believe that our Bill of Rights is anti-Ten Commandments. The first Amendment gives us freedom of speach and religion, but the Ten Commandments expressly forbids some sayings that may take the name of God in vain. It also forbids worship of any other deity. With such a contradiction between the United States Constitution and the Ten Commandments, I also view the statement "our nation was created based on Judeo-Christian values" to be bigotry. Our nation was created in an effort to break away from the Judeo-Christain values that forced our forefathers to live their lives a certain way. My attempt today to completely remove religion from our government is the exact same struggle under which our nation was formed.

I believe that organized religion is the root of all evil. Any nation that uses religion as an instrument of policy cannot truly call itself free. That goes for the United States of America today.

Finally, to answer the question from the OP, I believe that freedom of religion is the exact same thing as freedom from religion. I am from America. I am of America. I am from my mother. I am of my mother. I profess to be a believer of God. I profess to be a beliver from God. It's interesting how English is the only Romantic language I have studied that differentiates between the words "of" and "from" when they mean almost the exact same thing. I use them interchangeably.

Finally, I feel bad for your mother, and I feel good about her at the same time. I am glad she has found a place to put her worries, but at the same time I feel bad because she is deluding herself. There is no true solution for this. It is an unfortunate situation that has endured for millenia.

I fully respect everyone's beliefs. However, I denounce the practice of attempted conversion. I believe what I believe, and I feel any attempt to change that (not including a good theological discussion, which I do on a regular basis) is an insult to my intelligence.

Thank you for reading.

user error

Edited, Wed Dec 8 20:40:31 2004 by Kelvyquayo

Lol, imaginary rate up for you