With the coming of the winter shopping season, some people look up from the super sales and bargin bins to drag their whiney, annoying offspring into big buildings for a day and sing off-key limerics well past thier normal bedtimes.
And, since I have apparently lost all common sense, (and reason has long left me) I’m just going to say it.
How did Jesus sacrifice anything? This has bugged me for the longest time. Sure he was nailed to a cross and left to become jerky, but a lot of other people were on that hill with him, so what's so great about what he did?
I could see if he's in Hell for our sins, but he's in Heaven right? Where is the sacrifice in that? Help me see what's so damn special about what he did. He gives up living maybe 20 more years on earth, which is a rather dissmal place in and of itself really, for an express ticket to Heaven.
Who the hell wouldn't do what he did if they knew for a fact that they were getting a Reserved parking spot right next to God?
And how did God go from:
"Kill the first born! Rain crickets and frogs and blood on them! Turn people into salt! Drown these bastards, hold them under for a month!"
To
"I love you. Just listen to your heart, hugs and fishes and wine for everyone! Killing is bad, love everyone?"
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- Tis the season I guess.
Tis the season I guess.Follow
Christmas isn't a religious holiday. It's a time for rampant crowds at the mall and getting people to buy you stuff you normally wouldn't buy for yourself.
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a lot of other people were on that hill with him, so what's so great about what he did?
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And how did God go from:
"Kill the first born! Rain crickets and frogs and blood on them! Turn people into salt! Drown these bastards, hold them under for a month!"
To
"I love you. Just listen to your heart, hugs and fishes and wine for everyone! Killing is bad, love everyone?"
"Kill the first born! Rain crickets and frogs and blood on them! Turn people into salt! Drown these bastards, hold them under for a month!"
To
"I love you. Just listen to your heart, hugs and fishes and wine for everyone! Killing is bad, love everyone?"
And no, I'm not a Christian so don't bother with the "OMG you're a hypocrite!" lines.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Quote:
Your apparent ignorance of the scriptures makes this not even worth answering.
And no, I'm not a Christian so don't bother with the "OMG you're a hypocrite!" lines.
And no, I'm not a Christian so don't bother with the "OMG you're a hypocrite!" lines.
That's why I'm asking. I don't understand. I was hoping that there were a few people more read in scripture that could tell me. Help me to understand this idea that going to die, while fully knowing where you're going to end up is so heroic.
He knew that he was going to heaven, he knew he was the son of god. So really, what was he giving up? Where is this sacrifice?
I'm not trying to start a "Jebbus is the suxxor11!!" thread, I just wanted to get other ideas about this.
Someone's just read Borges (or Moorcock, or Kierkegaard, or Boethius)
yea yeah yeah. Now throw in the vintage 'Judas Iscariot was the real messiah' argument from those texts and we'll all be impressed you can read.
Now GFY
"I started out with nothin' and I still got most of it left" - Seasick Steve
Read more of the Old Testament, and less of the New, and you might get the idea. Part of the confusion you are probably having is that most of the New Testament was written from the perspective of explaining the "new teachings", and not so much the historical Jewish rationale behind it all.
Jewish tradition is full of the concept of the sacrifice and the scapegoat. A sacrifice is a pretty ancient concept, you give up something that represents "value", thus proving your devotion to some deity. This is hardly specific to Jewish belief, but I point it out for completeness. You get this part because it's very basic. The more complex bit (that you probably don't know anything about) is the concept of the scapegoat.
The idea of the scapegoat (which is not far removed from what you probably think it means) is a basic use of the magical law of Similarity. Something done to one thing can be a representation of something else you want done. It's the same basic idea that Voodoo Dolls use. The doll is magically made to represent a person, and what's done to the doll transfers to the person. Another example is the Akuaba Doll (bonus points if you know where this is from). This is a doll that is made deliberatly to be hideous. It is given to a pregnant woman so that the ugliness of her child will be drawn into the doll, thus ensuring a beatiful and healty baby. The scapegoat has some aspects of both. When a village was suffering hard times, they might decide that it was because of sins that God was punishing them for. Or they might actually know they did something wrong and want to absolve themselves of it. So they would take a goat and mystically transfer their sins to the goat via ritual. Then they would sacrifice the goat and God would take away the sins. It's a bit more complex the Catholic Confessional, but largely served the same purpose.
The problem is that a goat is not really a village. Thus, the magic is never "perfect" and sin cannot therefore ever be 100% removed. The sacrifice is only a representation of the reality. It can't equal what really needs to be paid to balance the scales. The idea of Jesus is that since he was the Son of God, and was himself without sin, he could represent a "perfect" sacrifice. His sacrifice, given willingly, would be enough not just for a village, but for the entire world.
You can believe it or not. That's not really important. But that's the significance of Jesus dying on the cross. The fact that Jesus knew that he would get an instant ticket to heaven was irrelevant. It was the concept that he took on the sins of the entire world and endured the process of sacrifice (in a pretty gruesome way) that matters.
Jewish tradition is full of the concept of the sacrifice and the scapegoat. A sacrifice is a pretty ancient concept, you give up something that represents "value", thus proving your devotion to some deity. This is hardly specific to Jewish belief, but I point it out for completeness. You get this part because it's very basic. The more complex bit (that you probably don't know anything about) is the concept of the scapegoat.
The idea of the scapegoat (which is not far removed from what you probably think it means) is a basic use of the magical law of Similarity. Something done to one thing can be a representation of something else you want done. It's the same basic idea that Voodoo Dolls use. The doll is magically made to represent a person, and what's done to the doll transfers to the person. Another example is the Akuaba Doll (bonus points if you know where this is from). This is a doll that is made deliberatly to be hideous. It is given to a pregnant woman so that the ugliness of her child will be drawn into the doll, thus ensuring a beatiful and healty baby. The scapegoat has some aspects of both. When a village was suffering hard times, they might decide that it was because of sins that God was punishing them for. Or they might actually know they did something wrong and want to absolve themselves of it. So they would take a goat and mystically transfer their sins to the goat via ritual. Then they would sacrifice the goat and God would take away the sins. It's a bit more complex the Catholic Confessional, but largely served the same purpose.
The problem is that a goat is not really a village. Thus, the magic is never "perfect" and sin cannot therefore ever be 100% removed. The sacrifice is only a representation of the reality. It can't equal what really needs to be paid to balance the scales. The idea of Jesus is that since he was the Son of God, and was himself without sin, he could represent a "perfect" sacrifice. His sacrifice, given willingly, would be enough not just for a village, but for the entire world.
You can believe it or not. That's not really important. But that's the significance of Jesus dying on the cross. The fact that Jesus knew that he would get an instant ticket to heaven was irrelevant. It was the concept that he took on the sins of the entire world and endured the process of sacrifice (in a pretty gruesome way) that matters.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Read Aquinas. He explains it in detail.
Disclaimer:
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
From what I have heard that many Christians believe, this intertwines with the idea of the Trinity, started by Constantine over 1000 years ago. Basically, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all one being. Jesus was God in the flesh, and he came to earth to be born as a man. He didn't want the race that he had created to be far away from him, so he came and died as one of us, and was then ressurected, creating the path to Heaven for everyone that believed that he died for them. Also, this is Christmas that is coming up, which is religious because of his BIRTH. Easter Sunday is the day of ressurection, which is much more significant to the Christian church.
You misconception seems to center around the fact that you think that Jesus was selfish in dying so he could get into Heaven. He was the Son of God, he had a place in Heaven before he was born on earth. Gbaji's reference to a perfect sacrifice is well said, because the other people on the hill with him were thieves and murderers. The only reason Jesus was put up there was because he was trying to convince people to come away from the old covenant so he could build a new one. Those that crucified him labeled him a blasphemer because he was not what their law for a Messiah was supposed to be.
All of God's wrath is displayed in the Old Testament. The forgiving God is displayed in the New Testament. Notice though, he was only vengeful against those that he created that did not follow him. I suppose the only remaining example of anger is written in Revalation, but again, it is going to be for whomever is not a follower.
You misconception seems to center around the fact that you think that Jesus was selfish in dying so he could get into Heaven. He was the Son of God, he had a place in Heaven before he was born on earth. Gbaji's reference to a perfect sacrifice is well said, because the other people on the hill with him were thieves and murderers. The only reason Jesus was put up there was because he was trying to convince people to come away from the old covenant so he could build a new one. Those that crucified him labeled him a blasphemer because he was not what their law for a Messiah was supposed to be.
Quote:
And how did God go from:
"Kill the first born! Rain crickets and frogs and blood on them! Turn people into salt! Drown these bastards, hold them under for a month!" To, "I love you. Just listen to your heart, hugs and fishes and wine for everyone! Killing is bad, love everyone?"
"Kill the first born! Rain crickets and frogs and blood on them! Turn people into salt! Drown these bastards, hold them under for a month!" To, "I love you. Just listen to your heart, hugs and fishes and wine for everyone! Killing is bad, love everyone?"
All of God's wrath is displayed in the Old Testament. The forgiving God is displayed in the New Testament. Notice though, he was only vengeful against those that he created that did not follow him. I suppose the only remaining example of anger is written in Revalation, but again, it is going to be for whomever is not a follower.
I don't profess to be a scholar, but here is what I gleen from the scriptures about jesus and the law of moses...
Jesus was the son of god, a part of the trinity(debateable depending upon your faith... some believe all three beings to be one as god, hence the phrase "we are one", or in other beliefs we are three seperate beings, but "we are one" in purpose, hence god commanding husband and wife to "be as one, as God is..." which is physically impossible.)and had his place secured in heaven before he ever adorned his mortal body. When he came to Earth, he was pure, and remained pure. The justice and laws of god were strict, and anyone who broke the law, paid the price. The only way to escape the penalty(which was to be cast out of heaven irrevocably forever) of sin, was for a sacrifice to be made. Not just any sacrifice, but a pure and sinless sacrifice out of love. Jesus was the only person capable of this act as he was the only person who had not commited a sin, and all of man kind was not spotless before god (i.e. we all make mistakes...) In order for Mercy to be extended, there had to be a mediator of sorts... a person who can step in and claim ourdebt to god. Jesus was that person, by sacrificing himself and taking upon himself the sins of the entire world (i.e. his pain and bleeding in the garden of gethsemane, with the final acts of god withdrawing his spirit from jesus hence the" Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" phrase, and his death upon the cross), jesus became our mediator... hence the statement "no one comes unto the father, but by me" statement. Now that there is a mediator between us and god, jesus can forgive any debt we owe if we follow his will and live according to his principals the best that we can. Repentance is another topic of great length to touch upon, so let it suffice that if we Repent of our sins, jesus can then forgive us and the debt is paid by christ, thus satisfying gods law of obedience, and Us being able to recieve mercy from such law.
The idea is correct of the Old Testament Wrath and the New Testament Forgiveness due to Jesus fullfilling that law. When Jesus sacrificed himself and took upon himself the sins of the world, Jesus negated the need for the Law of moses, I.E. an eye for an eye law, and also the Law of sacrifice, I.E. killing the first born lamb of your flocks each year as a representation of gods first born child being sacrificed for the sins of the world. (just a tidbit here, Satan, who is actualy Lucifer son of the morning, was gods second child and younger brother to Jesus and older brother to the rest of mankind...) With these laws now negated, and new laws created in their stead, we are now able to give and recieve forgiveness for our sins. The biggest condition of this remission of sins is the principal of repentance... the act of recognizing sin, turning from it, and doing our best to never do it again followed by prayer to jesus asking for forgiveness and help turning from those ways.
Jesus was sinless, therefore qualified to take upon himself all our sins, making it possible for us unclean(sinful) people to return to god(spottless)... the scriptures say..." no unclean thing may dwell with god". Repentance is the process of becoming clean. I hope this shows you the sacrifice made by Jesus in helping all mankind come back to god... because if you think about it... he didnt have to do that for us... he could have just went to heaven without us... but instead he suffered our sins upon himself in order to help ALL of us have a chance to make it back to God. And that my friend is the spirit of christmas... love of your fellow man... thge desire to do good and help those around you... living like christ did... with love and compassion to all man.
I hope this helped you understand what Jesus was about, and why it truly was a sacrifice... And why he was the ONLY one capable of doing it.
Jesus was the son of god, a part of the trinity(debateable depending upon your faith... some believe all three beings to be one as god, hence the phrase "we are one", or in other beliefs we are three seperate beings, but "we are one" in purpose, hence god commanding husband and wife to "be as one, as God is..." which is physically impossible.)and had his place secured in heaven before he ever adorned his mortal body. When he came to Earth, he was pure, and remained pure. The justice and laws of god were strict, and anyone who broke the law, paid the price. The only way to escape the penalty(which was to be cast out of heaven irrevocably forever) of sin, was for a sacrifice to be made. Not just any sacrifice, but a pure and sinless sacrifice out of love. Jesus was the only person capable of this act as he was the only person who had not commited a sin, and all of man kind was not spotless before god (i.e. we all make mistakes...) In order for Mercy to be extended, there had to be a mediator of sorts... a person who can step in and claim ourdebt to god. Jesus was that person, by sacrificing himself and taking upon himself the sins of the entire world (i.e. his pain and bleeding in the garden of gethsemane, with the final acts of god withdrawing his spirit from jesus hence the" Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" phrase, and his death upon the cross), jesus became our mediator... hence the statement "no one comes unto the father, but by me" statement. Now that there is a mediator between us and god, jesus can forgive any debt we owe if we follow his will and live according to his principals the best that we can. Repentance is another topic of great length to touch upon, so let it suffice that if we Repent of our sins, jesus can then forgive us and the debt is paid by christ, thus satisfying gods law of obedience, and Us being able to recieve mercy from such law.
The idea is correct of the Old Testament Wrath and the New Testament Forgiveness due to Jesus fullfilling that law. When Jesus sacrificed himself and took upon himself the sins of the world, Jesus negated the need for the Law of moses, I.E. an eye for an eye law, and also the Law of sacrifice, I.E. killing the first born lamb of your flocks each year as a representation of gods first born child being sacrificed for the sins of the world. (just a tidbit here, Satan, who is actualy Lucifer son of the morning, was gods second child and younger brother to Jesus and older brother to the rest of mankind...) With these laws now negated, and new laws created in their stead, we are now able to give and recieve forgiveness for our sins. The biggest condition of this remission of sins is the principal of repentance... the act of recognizing sin, turning from it, and doing our best to never do it again followed by prayer to jesus asking for forgiveness and help turning from those ways.
Jesus was sinless, therefore qualified to take upon himself all our sins, making it possible for us unclean(sinful) people to return to god(spottless)... the scriptures say..." no unclean thing may dwell with god". Repentance is the process of becoming clean. I hope this shows you the sacrifice made by Jesus in helping all mankind come back to god... because if you think about it... he didnt have to do that for us... he could have just went to heaven without us... but instead he suffered our sins upon himself in order to help ALL of us have a chance to make it back to God. And that my friend is the spirit of christmas... love of your fellow man... thge desire to do good and help those around you... living like christ did... with love and compassion to all man.
I hope this helped you understand what Jesus was about, and why it truly was a sacrifice... And why he was the ONLY one capable of doing it.
There were two really remarkable things about Jesus' sacrifice.
#1: As has been already mentioned, Jesus was already in the highest position in Heaven long before he came to Earth. He chose to leave Heaven to come to Earth as a sacrifice for our sins.
#2: He could have stopped the process of his execution at any given moment. He didn't, though, which shoewd his true love for mankind.
Another thing worth remembering is that the crucifiction wasn't the only thing Jesus endured. He was also scourged and beaten by the Romans, betrayed by a close friend, abandoned by all but one of his friends, denied by the one that claimed to be the closest to him, and most importantly, he was hated by the very people he had come to save.
Jesus didn't prance and nance through life, he had a pretty rough run of it, even by our standards.
Lousy words... having a correct spelling.
Edited, Tue Nov 30 09:49:51 2004 by KarshSilvermoon
#1: As has been already mentioned, Jesus was already in the highest position in Heaven long before he came to Earth. He chose to leave Heaven to come to Earth as a sacrifice for our sins.
#2: He could have stopped the process of his execution at any given moment. He didn't, though, which shoewd his true love for mankind.
Another thing worth remembering is that the crucifiction wasn't the only thing Jesus endured. He was also scourged and beaten by the Romans, betrayed by a close friend, abandoned by all but one of his friends, denied by the one that claimed to be the closest to him, and most importantly, he was hated by the very people he had come to save.
Jesus didn't prance and nance through life, he had a pretty rough run of it, even by our standards.
Lousy words... having a correct spelling.
Edited, Tue Nov 30 09:49:51 2004 by KarshSilvermoon
Looks like someone missed "Merry Christmas, Charlie Brown" 
Kelvhand the Shady wrote:
All of God's wrath is displayed in the Old Testament. The forgiving God is displayed in the New Testament. Notice though, he was only vengeful against those that he created that did not follow him. I suppose the only remaining example of anger is written in Revalation, but again, it is going to be for whomever is not a follower.
As I've mentioned in previous threads, there is no "Heaven" as an afterlife in the Old Testament. God is in heaven as are his angels but the sole Judaic afterlife in the Old Testament is Sheol which is basicly a grey nothingness or eternal sleep or what have you. Therefore, when God needs to punish someone, he does it physically on the Earth with plagues, war, famine, etc. The idea is that, in exchange for their honoring God and following the Law, God will reward the Jewish people either individually (as with Job) or as a race. Those who oppose God will be punished either individually or as a race/nation.
Jesus and the New Testament change that. Jesus offers an eternal afterlife which means that, whatever happens here on Earth, you get a place in the Hereafter if you've been "good" (again, read that as you will). God doesn't need to punish someone with two years of plagues before they slip into Sheol; now they'll suffer the eternal agonies of Hell and damnation.
When Jesus says the greatest commandments are to love God above all others and to love your neighbor as yourself, he's quoting Old Testament scripture, not making up something new. God has always commanded to honor him and to love others and has always threatened punishment to those who don't. Only the ways and means have changed.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
The one thing that is fairly evident is that regardless of their understanding or belief later in life, a great many people had religion beaten in to them at a young age. Scholarly sh;t Jo-feel.
oh, inanity of inanities..
Jopheil, Those 2 were Disciples... They were special witnesses of Christ... Disciples recieve a Special witness of christ that is more then just faith. They KNOW christ exists... they dont just have faith or believe. Disciples have either witnessed christ or been visited by christ in his ressurected form... Going against that kind of witness has its own penalty... death being gods punishment in that case is gods decision... You donot see however, general populaces wiped out or adversely affected in this nature in the new teastament... prophets and apostles are a completely different story.
Jophiel, you are mostly wrong as pertaining to only the ways and means have changed. A big change was made... there has now been a mediator who brings mercy to this equation... that is a HUMONGOUS difference as compared to, you ***** up, you die and go to hell...
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there has now been a mediator who brings mercy to this equation... that is a HUMONGOUS difference as compared to, you ***** up, you die and go to hell..
So is this to mean that EVErYONE on EARTH sudenly needs a mediator?? Did not people find salvation in God before Jesus?
So waht's with Christians judging the EVERYONE must use this mediator?
My belief is that when Jesus says "In my Name", he means that "by my way", that is do as he did, live as he lived, ad if you have to, die as he died.
If you ask me, Jesus' words are the only things that people should study. The rest is jsut a distraction.
Jesus died painfully for what he believed in. He wasn't a murderer, thief, rapist, or violent revolutionary. He simply had a religious belief and that was what he was killed for. To sacrifice your life for a noble cause is a great honor.
Maddstarr wrote:
Jopheil, Those 2 were Disciples... They were special witnesses of Christ... Disciples recieve a Special witness of christ that is more then just faith. They KNOW christ exists... they dont just have faith or believe. Disciples have either witnessed christ or been visited by christ in his ressurected form
If you have evidence that they were "special", please present it. Little is said of them except that they were almost certainly baptised after the Ascension and their sin/death.
Maddstarr wrote:
Jophiel, you are mostly wrong as pertaining to only the ways and means have changed. A big change was made... there has now been a mediator who brings mercy to this equation... that is a HUMONGOUS difference as compared to, you ***** up, you die and go to hell...
Anyway, the question was how did God go from
to 
. The simple answer is that he didn't, he's always been aspects of both.Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Lefein wrote:
Jesus died painfully for what he believed in.
Lefein wrote:
He wasn't a murderer, thief, rapist, or violent revolutionary.
Lefein wrote:
He simply had a religious belief and that was what he was killed for. To sacrifice your life for a noble cause is a great honor.
People died for your right to own Black people you dozy f[i][/i]uck. Still sound noble and honorable now?
"I started out with nothin' and I still got most of it left" - Seasick Steve
Quote:
People died for your right to own Black people you dozy ****. Still sound noble and honorable now?
Hell yeah! I'm not prejudiced, I love negras. I think everyone should own a few.
Jophiel, I think maybe we seeing the same thing just on a diff level perhaps? My point is that gods behavior is curbed after the law is fulfilled... before god required a sacrifice to be made in order to appease your sins... after jesus mediated between us and god, that sacrifice was no longer necessary... our debt shifted to jesus. whos requirements were not near as strict and required no blood shed in order to get to heaven.
Kelvyk, Yes jesus became a mediator to ALL mankind, whether you belive it or not is your personal choice... the bible clearly states that he took upon himself ALL of mans transgressions against god. If you dont believe in christ to begin with then this part of the discussion does not pertain to you.
Jophiel, as I am at work and donot have a copy of the bible at my disposal for perusal, what was the nature of the sin for the 2 in question. Was there prior warning of the outcome of lieng to the apostle? When you stated Disciple I was thinking Saint type disciple, not a common follower Disciple.
as for behavior changes in god, gods behavior has,and the way in which he reacts to us has... Jesus intervened on our behalf and took upon himself our debt to god. god does not interact directly with us anymore, he uses Jesus as his mouthpeice. We pray to jesus who then, in a sense, passes it to god and advocates for us. In return for mercy and safety from hell, jesus asks us to obey his laws(which are identical to gods).
I agree all laws are predicated upon the first law, to love god... if you love god you will follow his ways and laws... which he sets forth after his first law.
Kelvyk, Yes jesus became a mediator to ALL mankind, whether you belive it or not is your personal choice... the bible clearly states that he took upon himself ALL of mans transgressions against god. If you dont believe in christ to begin with then this part of the discussion does not pertain to you.
Jophiel, as I am at work and donot have a copy of the bible at my disposal for perusal, what was the nature of the sin for the 2 in question. Was there prior warning of the outcome of lieng to the apostle? When you stated Disciple I was thinking Saint type disciple, not a common follower Disciple.
as for behavior changes in god, gods behavior has,and the way in which he reacts to us has... Jesus intervened on our behalf and took upon himself our debt to god. god does not interact directly with us anymore, he uses Jesus as his mouthpeice. We pray to jesus who then, in a sense, passes it to god and advocates for us. In return for mercy and safety from hell, jesus asks us to obey his laws(which are identical to gods).
I agree all laws are predicated upon the first law, to love god... if you love god you will follow his ways and laws... which he sets forth after his first law.
Moe wrote:
Hell yeah! I'm not prejudiced, I love negras. I think everyone should own a few.
Richard Pryor wrote:
Dem white folks got demselves some NEW Nigguhz. Call dem Vee-yet-nam-eeze. "Say bwa! Ain't yo' eyes evuh' goin' round off?"
"I started out with nothin' and I still got most of it left" - Seasick Steve
Nobby if you wanted to get Lefein going you should mention how Unitarians are not technically christians because they dont believe in the Trinity
Damn stinky Unitarians!
This post brought to you by both Mediocrity and Trolling (tm)
Edited, Tue Nov 30 15:42:24 2004 by bhodisattva
Damn stinky Unitarians!
This post brought to you by both Mediocrity and Trolling (tm)
Edited, Tue Nov 30 15:42:24 2004 by bhodisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
41 posts
I think madd and joph are talking on the same level, just in different terms.
Im not quite understanding Nobby though. The point of this discussion is about the bible and events contained within. That makes this a discussion of beliefs in its own rights if I'm not mistaken. So stating that beliefs are to be tossed out, is not a very reasonable approach to this subject. The Bible is all about belief and faith. If this is not what you are intending to say Nobby, then help us out and explain?
Im not quite understanding Nobby though. The point of this discussion is about the bible and events contained within. That makes this a discussion of beliefs in its own rights if I'm not mistaken. So stating that beliefs are to be tossed out, is not a very reasonable approach to this subject. The Bible is all about belief and faith. If this is not what you are intending to say Nobby, then help us out and explain?
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