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If preemptive strikes are justified....Follow

#152 Oct 04 2004 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
Friar Reinman wrote:
Quote:
In this scenario killing 500,000 or so people(yes mostly innocent) was a better choice than killing some 3,000,000 or so if the war was drawn out by other means. That is all, I didn't mean anything about the value of a specific regions life value.


So you are saying that you don't want people to die, and less people dying the better, how profound.

I am asking you if there is a ratio, personally I think I would base it on about 10 Iraqi's for each American, and 3 american lives for each Canadian.

Which makes 30 Iraqis for each Canadians life.

I believe that all men were created equally.

Where the divergence occurs is based on education and investment. The average American probably has 10 time the education of the average Iraqi's. Most Iraqi's have next to no education, thus nothing invested, and nothing lost when they die.

I would hate to educate someone, and have them making the best MMORPG in the world, only to be bumped off in favor of an Iraqi who doesn't know how to use a toilet.

Maybe it's just me?

Totem knows what I am talking about.


Or 3000 of some of the best economic minds from around the world and at home.. 9-11 was a feeble attempt of poorly educated religious zealots to force their theocratic doctrine on the civilized world.
#153 Oct 04 2004 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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In this scenario killing 500,000 or so people(yes mostly innocent) was a better choice than killing some 3,000,000 or so if the war was drawn out by other means. That is all, I didn't mean anything about the value of a specific regions life value.


Sure you did. If we had developed the Bomb in 1941 what do you think the odds are we'd have dropped it on Berlin?

Zero.
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#154 Oct 04 2004 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
Personally, I find it difficult to argue the morality of dropping the atomic bombs as more than just an intellectual exercise.

The atomic bombs were developed over years during the war in the hope of finding a 'super weapon' with which to bring an end to what must have seemed like an unending war.

The USSR lost 6,000,000 troops during WWII. We lost 300-400,000. China lost more than a million. By one site (unofficial) the total number of troops killed in WWII was more than 10,000,000. And that's not counting Italy, Germany and Japan.

Again unofficially, the number of civilians killed was more than 20,000,000 worldwide not counting japan and germany.

Yes we had some ideas about the effects of the bomb. But long term effects? No.

It's easy to second guess now that maybe we could have used conventional weapons for the same result but who knows? At what point do you just say, ***** it, drop the atomic bombs, I want this war over'.

Yes, you can say we had no guarantee that they would work. But, you know what, they did. And you can sit back in your plush chair and make silly arguments about how many civilians have to die before it's ok to drop an a-bomb, or how many troops have to perish, but at some point a person has to look at the number of dead, look at the prognosis for the war and make a decision. Truman made what I think was the right decision for the time. For the time. Dropping the bomb nowadays is a different story. With the number of nukes out there and the number of countries having nukes it would be a tough decision to drop another with the threat of worldwide destruction hanging over your head.

--DK
#156 Oct 04 2004 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
Darkknight wrote:
Personally, I find it difficult to argue the morality of dropping the atomic bombs as more than just an intellectual exercise.

The atomic bombs were developed over years during the war in the hope of finding a 'super weapon' with which to bring an end to what must have seemed like an unending war.

The USSR lost 6,000,000 troops during WWII. We lost 300-400,000. China lost more than a million. By one site (unofficial) the total number of troops killed in WWII was more than 10,000,000. And that's not counting Italy, Germany and Japan.

Again unofficially, the number of civilians killed was more than 20,000,000 worldwide not counting japan and germany.

Yes we had some ideas about the effects of the bomb. But long term effects? No.

It's easy to second guess now that maybe we could have used conventional weapons for the same result but who knows? At what point do you just say, ***** it, drop the atomic bombs, I want this war over'.

Yes, you can say we had no guarantee that they would work. But, you know what, they did. And you can sit back in your plush chair and make silly arguments about how many civilians have to die before it's ok to drop an a-bomb, or how many troops have to perish, but at some point a person has to look at the number of dead, look at the prognosis for the war and make a decision. Truman made what I think was the right decision for the time. For the time. Dropping the bomb nowadays is a different story. With the number of nukes out there and the number of countries having nukes it would be a tough decision to drop another with the threat of worldwide destruction hanging over your head.

--DK


The man has a point. The war in the Pacific was a total war of attrition. The European war was tactical and the german empire was waging battle on two fronts. If a land war was waged on the Japanese islands it would have been far more brutal than any of us can imagine. The reason being, two bombs with such psychological impact and ferocity it capitulated the other side.
#157 Oct 04 2004 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
When countries like N Korea and Iran have nuclear weapons then nuclear weaponry itself becomes weaker. There is no "nuclear deterrant" anymore. We unleashed the most awesome of awesome weapons on the world and now that everybody and their pet dog seeks to have them we no longer have any advantage by having them in our ******** The only other option is to build a weapon even more powerful and fierce than atomic weaponry to have the same subjigating effect or psychological advantage in a world war type setting.
#158 Oct 04 2004 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
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16,160 posts
"The man has a point. The war in the Pacific was a total war of attrition. The European war was tactical..." --Lefein

There are so many glaring faults in this statement I hardly know where to begin.

Totem
#159 Oct 04 2004 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
ok the whole damn thing was a war of attrition but Im speaking in terms of the world war. The Japanese fought much much differently than the europeans
#160 Oct 04 2004 at 8:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
The only other option is to build a weapon even more powerful and fierce than atomic weaponry to have the same subjigating effect or psychological advantage in a world war type setting.


I don't think so, defence and first strike become more important. If you could show that you can deliver nukes to him and stop his from getting to you, I think that would give you a far bigger edge, then saying that you only need 1/2 as many rockets.
#161 Oct 04 2004 at 8:10 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
"The man has a point. The war in the Pacific was a total war of attrition. The European war was tactical..." --Lefein

There are so many glaring faults in this statement I hardly know where to begin.

Totem


Totem--You obviously meant that for everything except

Quote:
The man has a point.


--DK

That's OK, I forgive you.
#162 Oct 04 2004 at 8:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
The only other option is to build a weapon even more powerful and fierce than atomic weaponry to have the same subjigating effect or psychological advantage in a world war type setting.


I don't think so, defence and first strike become more important. Show your enemy that you can deliver nukes to him, and stop his from getting to you. ICBM's and the star wars project are a nice 1-2 punch.
#163 Oct 04 2004 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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The "star wars" project is a fuc[/b]king joke.

[b]
The only other option is to build a weapon even more powerful and fierce than atomic weaponry to have the same subjigating effect or psychological advantage in a world war type setting.


There is nothing. Anyone who can build an H-bomb can build a weapon that will destroy life as we know it. There's no step up from that. What would you do, build a weapon that could destroy the galaxy? Who would care?
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#164 Oct 04 2004 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
Ever play ff6? Light of Judgement baby!
#165 Oct 04 2004 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
The "star wars" project is a ******* joke.


Yeah, Lucas should have left the films alone.

--DK

#166 Oct 04 2004 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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16,160 posts
"Anyone who can build an H-bomb can build a weapon that will destroy life as we know it. There's no step up from that. What would you do, build a weapon that could destroy the galaxy?" --Smash

A big frickin' la-ser.

/puts his pinky to the corner of his mouth

Totem
#167 Oct 04 2004 at 11:25 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
The "star wars" project is a fu[b][/b]cking joke.


Did you see "Spies Like Us". They almost had it perfected then, and that film was made in 1985. They're bound to have worked it out by now.
#168 Oct 04 2004 at 11:42 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Where the divergence occurs is based on education and investment. The average American probably has 10 time the education of the average Iraqi's. Most Iraqi's have next to no education, thus nothing invested, and nothing lost when they die.


Solid point. But they don't lose nothing, they lose their lives. You are right though, about people having value. It may not be right but some people are overall more important to the world.
#169 Oct 05 2004 at 3:56 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
The man has a point. The war in the Pacific was a total war of attrition. The European war was tactical and the german empire was waging battle on two fronts.


The Eastern front in the European theater was a war of attrition for the Russians, but a tatical one for the Germans.

The Pacific theater became a war of attrition for the Japanese later in the war, as they had no hope of a tatical victory.

The Western front in the European theater was very much a tatical war, since the Germans had commited the majority of troops to the east, and both sides were bent on minimizing casualties.

Italy was a war of attrition, both sides threw haymakers as much as possible or dug in like a armidillo. The terrain in Italy prevents modern warfare from being very tacticle.

To be honest though, a war of attrition vs. a war of tacticle victories is usually dependent on if you are winning or losing.
Losers tend to try to trade ground for casualties, and winners usually try to take land with little casualties.
#170 Oct 05 2004 at 3:59 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
Sure you did. If we had developed the Bomb in 1941 what do you think the odds are we'd have dropped it on Berlin?

Zero


In 1941, we might just have dropped the bomb, but not on Berlin. I would guess Rome, and Hamburg or maybe Dresden. Tripoli would have been another valid and reseaonable target.
#171 Oct 05 2004 at 10:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There is nothing. Anyone who can build an H-bomb can build a weapon that will destroy life as we know it. There's no step up from that. What would you do, build a weapon that could destroy the galaxy? Who would care?

Don't be fooled, Smash is secretly constructing his own Death Star.
I never understood how a laser from something the size of a moon could destroy an entire planet, but then I'm no physicist. I doubt Lucas is, either
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#172 Oct 05 2004 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
Don't be fooled, Smash is secretly constructing his own Death Star.
I never understood how a laser from something the size of a moon could destroy an entire planet, but then I'm no physicist. I doubt Lucas is, either


The laser cuts through to the core of the planet, thus heating up all the magma to the gaseous or plasmatic state. The pressure builds up, and pow.
#173 Oct 05 2004 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
If the laser cuts through the solid crust so easily, why doesn't it just blow a hole clean through the planet?
#174 Oct 05 2004 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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16,160 posts
Meerkatxx, no wonder all my uncles and their WW2 buddies came back from the war with all those inks of half nekkid women on their arms. It was a "tatical war!"

Based on that though why didn't the Japanese win? Ever seen a Yakuza's tats?

Totem
#175 Oct 05 2004 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
TStephens wrote:
If the laser cuts through the solid crust so easily, why doesn't it just blow a hole clean through the planet?


Maybe they change the intensity of the laser once it clears the crust.
#176 Oct 05 2004 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
That's a lot of precision for an organization that can't seem to defeat Harrison Ford and a wookie.
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