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#1 Jun 11 2004 at 6:42 PM Rating: Decent
UN says Iraq had WMD

So I'll be looking for more information to verify story. But here you go with what is coming out.


Quote:
UN inspectors: Saddam shipped out WMD before war and after

SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Friday, June 11, 2004
The United Nations has determined that Saddam Hussein shipped weapons of mass destruction components as well as medium-range ballistic missiles before, during and after the U.S.-led war against Iraq in 2003.

The UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission briefed the Security Council on new findings that could help trace the whereabouts of Saddam's missile and WMD program.

The briefing contained satellite photographs that demonstrated the speed with which Saddam dismantled his missile and WMD sites before and during the war. Council members were shown photographs of a ballistic missile site outside Baghdad in May 2003, and then saw a satellite image of the same location in February 2004, in which facilities had disappeared.

UNMOVIC acting executive chairman Demetrius Perricos told the council on June 9 that "the only controls at the borders are for the weight of the scrap metal, and to check whether there are any explosive or radioactive materials within the scrap," Middle East Newsline reported.
"It's being exported," Perricos said after the briefing. "It's being traded out. And there is a large variety of scrap metal from very new to very old, and slowly, it seems the country is depleted of metal."

"The removal of these materials from Iraq raises concerns with regard to proliferation risks," Perricos told the council. Perricos also reported that inspectors found Iraqi WMD and missile components shipped abroad that still contained UN inspection tags.

He said the Iraqi facilities were dismantled and sent both to Europe and around the Middle East. at the rate of about 1,000 tons of metal a month. Destionations included Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey.

The Baghdad missile site contained a range of WMD and dual-use components, UN officials said. They included missile components, reactor vessel and fermenters – the latter required for the production of chemical and biological warheads.

"It raises the question of what happened to the dual-use equipment, where is it now and what is it being used for," Ewen Buchanan, Perricos's spokesman, said. "You can make all kinds of pharmaceutical and medicinal products with a fermenter. You can also use it to breed anthrax."

The UNMOVIC report said Iraqi missiles were dismantled and exported to such countries as Jordan, the Netherlands and Turkey. In the Dutch city of Rotterdam, an SA-2 surface-to-air missile, one of at least 12, was discovered in a junk yard, replete with UN tags. In Jordan, UN inspectors found 20 SA-2 engines as well as components for solid-fuel for missiles.

"The problem for us is that we don't know what may have passed through these yards and other yards elsewhere," Buchanan said. "We can't really assess the significance and don't know the full extent of activity that could be going on there or with others of Iraq's neighbors."

UN inspectors have assessed that the SA-2 and the short-range Al Samoud surface-to-surface missile were shipped abroad by agents of the Saddam regime. Buchanan said UNMOVIC plans to inspect other sites, including in Turkey.

In April, International Atomic Energy Agency director-general Mohammed El Baradei said material from Iraqi nuclear facilities were being smuggled out of the country.




Edited, Fri Jun 11 20:07:07 2004 by Stok
#2 Jun 11 2004 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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Moreover, the arty shell which had sarin gas in it that exploded some weeks ago was unusual in that most bombs made from artillery shells being used by insurgents have the old detonators taken out and new ones inserted in the tips. The shell with the sarin gas had the detonator strapped to its' side, suggesting that the terrorists were aware of it's contents and were unwilling to open it for fear of gassing themselves. That would also suggest a knowledge of chemical munitions and the possibility of more in the insurgent's hands due to their familiarty with the shell.

Food for tought, huh?

Totem

Edited, Fri Jun 11 19:52:18 2004 by Totem
#3 Jun 11 2004 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
Link to UNMOVIC quarterly Report

They didn't make this **** up.
#4 Jun 11 2004 at 6:54 PM Rating: Good
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Totem wrote:
Moreover, the arty shell which had sarin gas in it that exploded some weeks ago was unusual in that most bombs made from artillery shells being used by insurgents have the old detonators taken out and new ones inserted in the tips. The shell with the sarin gas had the detonator strapped to its' side, suggesting that the terrorists were aware of it's contents and were unwilling to open it for fear of gassing themselves. That would also suggest an operating knowledge of chemical munitions and the possibility of more in the insurgent's hands due to their familiarty with the shell.


Or maybe they were just some guys who joined the insurgence off the street, or low-level soldiers who never got such training. If I wanted to make something blow up, I'd do the same thing. Just duct tape an explosive to the side and light the fuse.


#5 Jun 11 2004 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, that is possible, but the incidences of more and more sophisticated bomb making are the norm, not the opposite, where they are "dumbing down" their techniques. The intell experts aren't completely convinced yet that this wasn't pure chance, but the fact the rebels did not crack open the artillery shell suggests they knew what it contained-- something which should tell us that they were testing its' feasibility for killing.

Totem
#6 Jun 11 2004 at 8:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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My gut feeling is that they did know what it was, but not how to use it. Despite the mislabeling, the weight and shape would have been slightly different. I dunno.

The SA2 engine isn't that interesting by itself, you or I could with enough time and machine shop support build one of those fairly easily. The big thing is the chemical reports again. Even the U.N is saying "huh" on this, so maybe there is something to it. I'm going to take a wait and see attitude, then blame syria.
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#7 Jun 11 2004 at 8:17 PM Rating: Decent
What will it take? A few hundred deaths in a WMD attack by Iraqi Insurgents to make people say, damn they really had the ****. But then again, the other side would probably say they got it from NK.
#8 Jun 11 2004 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
wow. very powerful and damning information about iraq.

thank you for both links and the PDF is a most interesting read.
#9 Jun 11 2004 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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Well. I wouldn't jump automatically to the "they really did have WMD" conclusion, since this is basically talking about components that *could* be used for WMD. However, this is just another nail in the coffin, so to speak.

While we can't say anything about actualy biological or chemical warheads that may have been moved, the fact that these missile parts are showing up all over the place certainly tells us that they were able to dismantle and ship out the missiles, so there's no rational reason left to assume they couldn't also have shipped out the warheads as well. Doesn't state definatively that they were, but certainly removes any credibility to the claim that they didn't have the time or ability to do so if they wanted.


I'm a bit more concerned about how exactly missiles that were already inpsected showed up in those scrap yards though. I would assume that inspected materials were supposed to have been destroyed, right? While again there's no direct evidence for this, one has to wonder if there wasn't some corruption involved in the inspection process that allowed inspected missiles to be cataloged as "inpsected and cleared" for purposes of meeting the resolution requirements, but then were never dismantled or destroyed as they were supposed to.

Maybe I'm misreading what "inspected" means, but it seems troubling in anyway. If the whole point of the inspections was to find and dismantle any WMD that Saddam had, and we find previously inspected missiles in a junkyard in Europe, with no data trail as to how they got there, one kinda comes to the conclusion that the inspection process was not doing what it was supposed to do.


Hmmm...
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#10 Jun 11 2004 at 8:53 PM Rating: Default
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MEaningless article by a fringe internet news source.

I'd expect nothihng less from Stok. Scrap meatal from allready known about missle components was moved, and somehow that translates into WMD being moved.

Nice try.
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#11 Jun 11 2004 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
BAM!!!

READ THE SECOND LINK **** HOLE. :)

Then get back with me.
#12 Jun 11 2004 at 9:17 PM Rating: Default
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I did read it, did you?

It talks about scrap meatal being moved out of Iraq that UN inspection tags on it and some scrap metal that may or may not have been procured in violation of UN mandate to make medium range missles.

So?
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#13 Jun 11 2004 at 10:38 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
I did read it, did you?
Yes I did.


The bolded text is my emphasis.
And Page 3, Section 6, 2nd Sentence it states: "In particular, following a visit of IAEA to a scrapyard in Rotterdam to investigate increased radiation readings, it was discovered, through photographs taken at the time, that engines of SA-2 surface-to-air missiles where among the scrap."


It just makes me go hmmmmm. A few more pieces to the puzzle have been found. And the report goes on a bit further. But I won't quote it here.
#14 Jun 11 2004 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
I did read it, did you?

It talks about scrap meatal being moved out of Iraq that UN inspection tags on it and some scrap metal that may or may not have been procured in violation of UN mandate to make medium range missles.

So?


Not exactly. It talks about missiles that were whole and complete when they were inspected by the UN at some indeterminate time in the past. These missiles then show up in scrapyards throughout Europe with absolutely no record of how they got there (aside from backtracking shipping through private corporations that should have had nothing to do with any legitimate disposal of those missiles).


It also shows photos of sites that contained missiles in the months prior to the Iraq war, and then shows those same sites sans missiles a few months later. Clearly, they were moved in between...


Do you really need a roadmap and both hands to figure this out?
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#15 Jun 11 2004 at 10:54 PM Rating: Default
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To figure what out? That missles were sold? Ok. So?

Did I miss someone somewhere saying Saddam had no missles?

Did I miss some decleration that delivery devices were the same as weapons somehwere? Does this mean that if we find some airplanes scrapped by a US comany, that it's export of WMD?

What's the conclusion you're arriving at. Yes, I guess I do need a roadmp.
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#16 Jun 11 2004 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
To figure what out? That missles were sold? Ok. So?

Did I miss someone somewhere saying Saddam had no missles?

Did I miss some decleration that delivery devices were the same as weapons somehwere? Does this mean that if we find some airplanes scrapped by a US comany, that it's export of WMD?

What's the conclusion you're arriving at. Yes, I guess I do need a roadmp.


If missiles that were in violation of UN sanction could go from being recorded by the UN inspection teams, then vanish only to appear in scrapyards throughout Europe, with no record of what happened to bring them there, then where the hell did the warheads go?

Clearly, the materials were moved from Iraq and out of the country. There's no evidence where they were dismantled, or where the warheads went, or who took posession of them. They just disappear from one spot and appear in the other.


It goes a long way towards the claim that the administration has been making that weapons were not being tracked adequately, and were not being accounted for, and that the reason we hadn't found them was because they'd been moved out of the country. Well. I think finding a bunch of missile bodies from Iraq outside the country certainly supports that view, doesn't it?


It also presents strong support for the statements that at the time the US was arguing for action in Iraq, there were many WMD in that country, which were subsequently moved out of the country, exactly as the administration has been claiming (with much derision from the left). The fact that the UN is now concerned about where the warheads that used to be in these missile are, should be a big clue in that this is a pretty majore report.
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#17 Jun 11 2004 at 11:12 PM Rating: Default
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So you are concluding that because milles were moved that WMD warheads were as well?

That's insane. There's no logical path there at all.

Quote:

It goes a long way towards the claim that the administration has been making that weapons were not being tracked adequately, and were not being accounted for, and that the reason we hadn't found them was because they'd been moved out of the country. Well. I think finding a bunch of missile bodies from Iraq outside the country certainly supports that view, doesn't it?


No, not really. Not at all actually.

Quote:

It also presents strong support for the statements that at the time the US was arguing for action in Iraq, there were many WMD in that country, which were subsequently moved out of the country, exactly as the administration has been claiming (with much derision from the left). The fact that the UN is now concerned about where the warheads that used to be in these missile are, should be a big clue in that this is a pretty majore report.

No it doesn't.

Whatever though. Start with the conclusion and try to gather anything that even looks vaguely simmilar as evidence.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

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