Barry BondsFollow

well let's see here...

1990: National League Most Valuable Player
1990: National League Gold Glove at OF
1991: National League Gold Glove at OF
1992: National League Gold Glove at OF
1992: National League Most Valuable Player
1993: National League Most Valuable Player
1993: National League Gold Glove at OF
1994: National League Gold Glove at OF
1994 ESPY: Outstanding Baseball Performer
1994 ESPY: Male Athlete of the Year
1996: National League Gold Glove at OF
1997: National League Gold Glove at OF
1998: National League Gold Glove at OF
2001: National League Most Valuable Player
2002 ESPY: Moment of the Year
2002: National League Most Valuable Player
2002 ESPY: Outstanding Baseball Performer
2003: National League Most Valuable Player

Takes some pretty decent hand-eye to win 8 Golden gloves I'd presume...(you can probably disregard the espys though)

Plus how about his batting averages, let's start with 1990:
1990 .301
1991 .292
1992 .311
1993 .336
1994 .312
1995 .294
1996 .308
1997 .291
1998 .303
1999 .262
2000 .306
2001 .328
I would hardly call those dramatically different from his numbers in the present time... as was stated earlier as you age you learn patience and discpline at the plate, or at least you should and Barry has. He was a good hitter before 2001, now he's a great hitter, people love to make barry sound like he hit like alex cora or nefi perez pre 2001.

The numbers were already posted, you'd know that if you bothere to read the thread.



That's a jump of 56 points at a time when his reactions should be slowing down. Take a look at it again. Before 2001 he was less than a .300 hitter. After 2001, he's hitting .345

The Gold Gloves really don't mean squat since we aren't talking about his defensive abilities, AND its a voted award, not a statistical one. Steve Garvey, one of the worst defensive first basemen in the game won a Gold Glove. Rafael Palmiero won a Gold Glove when he was primarily a DH. So Gold Gloves don't mean **** in this discussion.

Thank you for pointing that out.

I broke it down on a yearly basis because I think it's important to look at individual years rather than an average, after all the .345 your talking about is a 3 year average and the .289 is a 15 year average.
You can see that his batting averages fluctuate his whole carrer,
from 86-87 a change of +.36 points
from 89-90 a change of +.43 points
from 98-99 a change of -.41 points
from 99-00 a change of +.44 points
from 01-02 a change of +.42 points
from 02-03 a change of -.29 points

nothing seems very out of whack there.



Well we're talking about 8 of them, he must of been doing something right.

He may be, but we are not talking about defense here, its not relevant to the discussion.

But you are right about the 3 year vs 15 year span, so let's break it down into three year spans.

age Years ab hits Bavg Avg#hrs
21-23 86-88 1502 388 .258 21.7
24-26 89-91 1609 449 .279 25.7
27-29 92-94 1403 450 .320 39
30-32 95-97 1555 463 .298 38
33-35 98-00 1387 407 .293 40
36-38 01-03 1269 438 .345 54


Everything up to 2001 is prety much what you would expect. He came into the league, and started off slowly (relatively speaking), improved as he physically matured and grew more experienced, maintained a high level of performance until he was about 35.... and then rather than showing a drop off like virtually every other player in the history of the game, he suddenly jumped his batting average up 56 points over his lifetime average to that point, and his average number of homeruns jumped up by 14 over his best previous three year span!

To understand this, you also have to look at what everyone around him was doing as well. We know that offensive production has been on the rise for some time, but took a big jump in 1994, and since 2000 HR's have been completly nuts. Below is listed the batting average for the entire NL from 1987 onward.

87 .261
88 .248
89 .246
90 .256
91 .250
92 .252
93 .264
94 .267
95 .263
96 .262
97 .263
98 .262
99 .268
00 .266
01 .261
02 .259
03 .262

A gradual increase over the years, but Batting Avg, has been pretty steady since 1993. So there was no sudden dearth of quality pitching, there was no great leap in hitting for average overall. Which makes Bonds' performance all the more remarkable (and all the more suspect). I did a brief search through some of the more famous sluggers in baseball history, and couldn't find anything comparable to Bond's surge. Other players have had good seasons late in life, but they haven't strung together three career years like he has, particularly with regards to his batting average.

There's enough evidence to raise suspicion in Bonds' case, but if you don't believe that Bonds performance is enhanced, there's nothing that is going to make you believe it short of a positive test (which is unlikely as such tests are easily avoided or beaten).

Edited, Thu Apr 15 12:30:22 2004 by Deathwysh

There's tons of evidence, there's no proof.



Well if that's true, then your argument that increased bulk leads to decreased agility holds no water.



There's really no question of Bonds using steroids either, its just a question of guilt or innocence. Hell, professional body builders haven't been able to add the kind of muscle mass that Bonds did in the same amount of time. The only instances of professional athletes, already at full adult growth, suddenly adding large amounts of muscle mass have all been proven or suspected to be the result of steroid use. Baseball hasn't caught anyone doing it because baseball has the flimsiest drug screening policy of any major sport.




Comparing a baseball season to something as immediately grueling as the Tour de France is idiotic. Sure the baseball season is long, but baseball (the game) is far and away the least physically demanding of the major professional sports. It is not uncommon for a player (particularly an outfielder) to play an entire game, and never even have a defensive chance. Grueling, its not. Fat old men can (and have) played professional baseball. You'll never see the likes of Gaylord Perry or Mickey Lolich dragging their huge beer bellies around a velodrome.