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I think that most people have experienced Kensho, a preliminary/lesser form of Satori, far before they were 16 years old. They probably weren't aware of it, and certainly didn't know such a feeling had a name.

I chose the word 'Satori' in my initial post because of the profundity of the experience (or non-experience, if you prefer). It was not the first time I felt such a revelation. I stand by statement that what I felt, in that instance, was Satori.



It means that to achieve Zen, you can't just glimpse true reality, your eyes must be wide open. Kensho is the glimpse, Satori is the wide-eyed stare.

There are varying degrees of Satori. Satori builds upon itself, becoming deeper (in general) with every passing experience. At the same time, it can become counter-productive. The practitioner can become so focused on re-experiencing their Kensho (or Satori if it is the 2nd+ time), that they become mired in their attachment, thus preventing them from achieving their goal.

I am assuming you practice Rinzai? The above answer is targeted as such. If you are Soto sect, there are probably a couple more semantical details you will take issue with.

EDIT:

I realize the inherent inadequacy of words like 'achieve', 'reality', 'goal', 'experience', and 'revelation' for transmitting understanding. They're just the fingers, not the moon. Feel free to argue semantics about other details of my post if you feel I was in error, but if you take issue with words like the ones I list, so help me Manjusri, I will kick you in the nuts when I see you in L.A.



Edited, Tue Mar 30 00:06:17 2004 by Thundra

Yes, I forgot to include the word 'significant' in my first post. My apologies if that caused you to completely butcher the meaning of 'Satori', and then claim that three online sources, and myself, were wrong about the definition.

The fact that you claim Satori is the result of effort proves beyond all doubt you don't understand the concept.

Satori is the purest antithesis of thought and effort.

Now it's my turn...

How do you think your way into thoughtlessness?

The Zen response would be, "No, there is no point in Zen teaching. Zen teaching is completely redundant."

The literal response would be, "I take that as meaning you aren't going to answer the question in my previous post."

I'm having serious issues with the word 'effort', but you are clearly emphasizing the importance of 'just being', which indicates to me you have a degree of understanding.

I just think the word 'effort' has no place in anything you said. It completely taints the meaning. Once again, it's a semantical difference, and neither of us want to get involved in another pointless debate on the connotative meanings of a word, but to me, there is a world of difference between 'just being' and 'effort'. Dualism at it's finest.

In LA? Cool, I can get that on my 8mm too. Those kind of films go like hotcakes on the underground. We need some burros though. Can you get us some farm animals for our June get-together, Thundra?

In!

Totem