I hate some rumors... especially the kind with influence. The kind that spread about jobs that make our lives miserable, the kind that make people think "why waste space on *blank* when we could get 3 DRKs!"
I'd like to hear some of these rumors as far as Cerberus goes, and I'll start to make the purpose of this thread clearer ^^
1. "RDM is only good for Refresh, Dispel, and Haste. That is all they should ever do, or I'll kick them."
I heard this and have been subjected to its influence. I, of course, defend my ability to debuff and melee for the sake of sword skills. Anyone who thinks differently probably doesn't have a RDM leveled or is REALLY bad at it.
2. "RDM is a better healer than WHM because of Convert and refresh!"
This is far from the truth and often hilarious. WHM is the ONLY healing class in the game, RDM just happens to be able to do it. I kick **** as a healer, but then the mob gets no debuffs, everyone and their mother wants a damn Refresh in the middle of me healing the tank, and I still have to Dispel the mobs. Go with a WHM unless there are absolutely no other options, they have the best heals and buffs, remember that.
3. "All BSTs are anti-social losers and should only solo!"
Not true... although i personally am a little anti-social ^^ Though I like to solo, I enjoy a good party with fun people. Sometimes, however, I'm too busy listening to the radio to focus on a full party and just solo, which results in me dying rather often. Damn you Bob and Tom!
4. "BSTs are the bad at melee cost XP, NEVER INVITE ONE!"
This one strikes close to home. I've literally had people come near my party and in /say tell the team to kick me cuz I cost XP. Funny thing is the XP is normal and the team is rocking, but then they start to doubt me. Here goes: a BST only causes XP if the pet is T, VT, or IT! Even Match or below and Jugs only hurt the BST, and only if they don't release. Now for the "bad at melee" part. I've been in normal parties, and I deal better than any one-handed weapon. The only thing that beats me is a two-handed weapon or SATA, and only barely since my total attack with a pet is doubled and my delay is still around 300 with an Axe. I deal, let's say, 65%-70% of what a DRK deals before Souleater, and at a lower delay. DRK is awesome, but don;t dismiss a BST just because someone tells you to, you won't regret it... unless they are a jerk or just plain suck lol
5. "RDMs are the jack of all trades, so they can do anything they want."
Kinda true, kinda false. The RDM can really do a helluva lot, but they are a mage class, don't forget it. They are meant to cast more than anything, so their melee is weak as hell thanks to that fact. You can offset this with a WAR or other melee sub and deal decent damage, but their casting is SO much better than anything else. I know a couple good RDM/melees, so no offense to anyone, but it's a simple fact that a RDM is a mage above all else... it says so in the name :P
I'd love to hear more, as I'm sure I've been suckered into believing some stupid crap over my months of playtime. I;m sure I'll hear a couple from my friends, the DRGs lol. Apologies for the long post, I tend to rant a little ^^
Edited, Sat Sep 18 08:58:34 2004 by Noblemyth
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This will sound rough, but..
If you cant Heal, Debuff, Refresh, Dispel at the same time, you aint good at your job.
RDM is better at healing in my opinion, casts faster, more mp.
But then, WHM got -raspells, Raise 2+3, better regens etc
Quote:
2. "RDM is a better healer than WHM because of Convert and refresh!"
This is far from the truth and often hilarious. WHM is the ONLY healing class in the game, RDM just happens to be able to do it. I kick **** as a healer, but then the mob gets no debuffs, everyone and their mother wants a damn Refresh in the middle of me healing the tank, and I still have to Dispel the mobs. Go with a WHM unless there are absolutely no other options, they have the best heals and buffs, remember that.
This is far from the truth and often hilarious. WHM is the ONLY healing class in the game, RDM just happens to be able to do it. I kick **** as a healer, but then the mob gets no debuffs, everyone and their mother wants a damn Refresh in the middle of me healing the tank, and I still have to Dispel the mobs. Go with a WHM unless there are absolutely no other options, they have the best heals and buffs, remember that.
If you cant Heal, Debuff, Refresh, Dispel at the same time, you aint good at your job.
RDM is better at healing in my opinion, casts faster, more mp.
But then, WHM got -raspells, Raise 2+3, better regens etc
sabotendar wrote:
This will sound rough, but..
If you cant Heal, Debuff, Refresh, Dispel at the same time, you aint good at your job.
RDM is better at healing in my opinion, casts faster, more mp.
But then, WHM got -raspells, Raise 2+3, better regens etc
If you cant Heal, Debuff, Refresh, Dispel at the same time, you aint good at your job.
RDM is better at healing in my opinion, casts faster, more mp.
But then, WHM got -raspells, Raise 2+3, better regens etc
rdms have the potential to do healing, buffing, debuffing and melee. it's up to the specific party requirements on the rdm. when i think rdm, however, notably "refresh", "dispel" and "convert" come to mind. hence for my usual party make-up, i'm seeking for a rdm that can perform these roles. i have however specifically created a party that required the rdm to perform healing instead of having a whm. the party is as follows: pld, drg, drk, rng, rng, rdm. in this party, i'd rather the rdm heal than waste time doing extensive "refresh"-es (no real mage around to refresh anyway) and dispelling (mob-dependent). i'm sure someday i'll like the rdms in my PT to melee more than cast spells. the day will come, trust me. ^^
no, it's not that he's not cut out for his job. just that he probably is better at filling the conventional paradigm of a rdm. sabotendar however probably mastered the art of doing more somehow. hence maybe you'd like to share your secrets, sabotender?
7 posts
LOL... ranting as usual, lol jk,
hey noble u missed AF Mania, i wasnt able to hunt my key, but we did get a few NMs and tried garlige key
hey noble u missed AF Mania, i wasnt able to hunt my key, but we did get a few NMs and tried garlige key
Quote:
This will sound rough, but..
If you cant Heal, Debuff, Refresh, Dispel at the same time, you aint good at your job.
If you cant Heal, Debuff, Refresh, Dispel at the same time, you aint good at your job.
Crappy...
I can melee and cast a spell at the same time. But I can't heal, debuff, refresh and dispel at the same time yet. Actually my RDM is only 26... so I'll say Heal, debuff, regen and en-spell. I dunno if you have this problem, or maybe I just haven't mastered my job yet... but when I'm healing someone and try to cast Regen at the same time, I get: "Unable to cast spells at this time."
Is there a quest I can do to unlock this so I can be good at my job?
EDIT:
Good comments about BST... personally, I don't use a pet in my party... but then again, I'm still not high enough level to have release or leave either... I find it difficult to find a party because most of the time people have the moronic mindset: "You're a BST.. you're supposed to solo." Ermm... wtf? If thats the case, explain why my bst still has a seek party function. I'd rather party for 1800 exp in an hour (kinda a slow party) than solo and try to charm and survive on my own for that hour.... I'd probably only end up with 1200-1600 exp in that hour if I solo'd any how.
Also, BST's have good damage. I can let my pet fight the battle almost all the way to the end... soon as my axe hits the mob, I have hate. Last night I was stealing hate from the other melee's in my party... we had a high level PL'ing the group, so we didn't really have a tank... the high level was our tank. BSTs make good space fillers for melee. Much better than a rdm for melee... or thf (in valkurm, at low levels, without SA). Also, BST's won't hurt exp if they don't use any pets while in party.
Edited, Mon Sep 20 18:36:21 2004 by ElvaanKrem
Wow... just, wow...
I start a thread about educating others and myself, debunking rumors and so forth, and what do I get? I get people telling I'm bad at what I do, bashing me and not contributing. Frankly, I am a damned good RDM. Can I dispel, debuff, heal, and refresh at practically the same time? Yes, and I have done so in the past. But would it be better to have me debuff mainly and backup a good WHM, support a second RDM, or alternate with a WHM for serious Chains? I think so. It could even work with a BRD in the party to supprt the RDM-healer.
Krem has the right idea kinda, although he's half my level ^^. I'm not going to defend myself past this point. I have worked very hard (almost obsessively) to be as good as I've gotten, so my performance will dictate my defense.
/em has a glass of soothing herbal tea and calms down.
Please feel free to post any rumors or other little tidbits you would like to mention or debunk, but I assume the next 10 posts will be about how badly I suck ^^. Thanks to anyone who contributes.
/em gets rated down.
(I don't know why i find being rated down funny, but I do lol)
EDIT: Thank you Krem for the BST stuff. I partyed in Qufim at level 23 with jugs and at that level I was the best melee in the party (DRK didn't have all the insane abilites he gets yet, and against crabs somehow my pet was breaking though with more damage even after Stoneskin o.0). I'd prefer BST to THF in Qufim, to be honest - they just bring more damage over all before SATA and are better in an emergency, which there seem to be tons of in there :P
Oh and you said BST won't hurt XP if they don't use a pet, which is another rumor pretty much. Anything Even Match or below to the BST won't hurt anyone but the BST. The only problem is that before level 35, a BST is in occasional danger if they use a natural pet in a party. I remember using an Even Match Hare in Valkurm... that got annoying when they uncharmed in the middle of a fight >.<
Edited, Tue Sep 21 09:25:35 2004 by Noblemyth
I start a thread about educating others and myself, debunking rumors and so forth, and what do I get? I get people telling I'm bad at what I do, bashing me and not contributing. Frankly, I am a damned good RDM. Can I dispel, debuff, heal, and refresh at practically the same time? Yes, and I have done so in the past. But would it be better to have me debuff mainly and backup a good WHM, support a second RDM, or alternate with a WHM for serious Chains? I think so. It could even work with a BRD in the party to supprt the RDM-healer.
Krem has the right idea kinda, although he's half my level ^^. I'm not going to defend myself past this point. I have worked very hard (almost obsessively) to be as good as I've gotten, so my performance will dictate my defense.
/em has a glass of soothing herbal tea and calms down.
Please feel free to post any rumors or other little tidbits you would like to mention or debunk, but I assume the next 10 posts will be about how badly I suck ^^. Thanks to anyone who contributes.
/em gets rated down.
(I don't know why i find being rated down funny, but I do lol)
EDIT: Thank you Krem for the BST stuff. I partyed in Qufim at level 23 with jugs and at that level I was the best melee in the party (DRK didn't have all the insane abilites he gets yet, and against crabs somehow my pet was breaking though with more damage even after Stoneskin o.0). I'd prefer BST to THF in Qufim, to be honest - they just bring more damage over all before SATA and are better in an emergency, which there seem to be tons of in there :P
Oh and you said BST won't hurt XP if they don't use a pet, which is another rumor pretty much. Anything Even Match or below to the BST won't hurt anyone but the BST. The only problem is that before level 35, a BST is in occasional danger if they use a natural pet in a party. I remember using an Even Match Hare in Valkurm... that got annoying when they uncharmed in the middle of a fight >.<
Edited, Tue Sep 21 09:25:35 2004 by Noblemyth
Ok well to add my 2 cents, I agree the most efficient party will have a RDM enfeebling the mob and refreshing the WHM and/or BLM. In my static party we are extremely efficient and our RDM DOES do melee. Our pt consists of: PLD, DRK, RNG, RDM, BLM, WHM. We are at a consistent chain 4 or 5 with very little down time. We do a full rest every 5 fights or so (only because we haven't reached convert, refresh yet. ;-/). Once we hit early 40s, our down time will be next to none. Have I used RDM as primary healer? Sure, in the Dunes. :-) Take nothing away from RDM, it's an awesome job. I personally like having a WHM around with near 600mp of curing goodness. :-P
As for BST, Munchkin can back me up on this one. I have NO problem inviting a BST to a pt because I know what they can do. It's nice to add the Axe capability in for SCing if the tank is using a sword. (granted the BST doesn't always full time melee) I actually have 4 or 5 people in my LS leveling BST. Plus it's funny to see that lil mandy pop up and start fighting with us. I am noticing more duos and trios of BSTs lately though, which seems like it would be fun.
I personally don't like the rumor that DRG and MNK are useless. :-/ However, this seems to be retracting itself as I've been getting invites without LFG and my buddy hit 51DRG last night. {/dance}
As for BST, Munchkin can back me up on this one. I have NO problem inviting a BST to a pt because I know what they can do. It's nice to add the Axe capability in for SCing if the tank is using a sword. (granted the BST doesn't always full time melee) I actually have 4 or 5 people in my LS leveling BST. Plus it's funny to see that lil mandy pop up and start fighting with us. I am noticing more duos and trios of BSTs lately though, which seems like it would be fun.
I personally don't like the rumor that DRG and MNK are useless. :-/ However, this seems to be retracting itself as I've been getting invites without LFG and my buddy hit 51DRG last night. {/dance}
Noble... you comment about me being half your level... maybe as far as rdm goes. However, just because my rdm is only level 26 does not mean I am not yet familiar with refresh, dispel and convert. Infact, these are things I highly look forward to. I've got lots of jobs at lots of levels. Unfortunately, only a few have made it past Valkurm... I actually have about half a dozen jobs at the Valkurm levels. :\
I said a BST won't hurt exp if he/she doesn't charm a pet... and that part is right. I don't like to attempt charming a pet in a party for two reasons. 1) If I wanted to cut my own exp, I'd solo... 2) I hate loosing charm in the middle of battle.. especially when I can't recharm it after the first attempt :\.
Finally, this myth about the MNK's has been saddening me for a very, very long time. I just unlocked ninja, and am almost to level 9. To me, ninja is like super monk... or will be with dual wield anyways. Only thing is I won't have the counter ability unless I sub my monk to my ninja at 20... but by then I think I'll be using thf sub. Personally, I need to level monk so I can learn the massive hit combo and watch my taru do a backflip.
I said a BST won't hurt exp if he/she doesn't charm a pet... and that part is right. I don't like to attempt charming a pet in a party for two reasons. 1) If I wanted to cut my own exp, I'd solo... 2) I hate loosing charm in the middle of battle.. especially when I can't recharm it after the first attempt :\.
Finally, this myth about the MNK's has been saddening me for a very, very long time. I just unlocked ninja, and am almost to level 9. To me, ninja is like super monk... or will be with dual wield anyways. Only thing is I won't have the counter ability unless I sub my monk to my ninja at 20... but by then I think I'll be using thf sub. Personally, I need to level monk so I can learn the massive hit combo and watch my taru do a backflip.
Oh, sorry Krem, didn't mean to make it sound like insulted you lol.
I was always sure you were higher level in other jobs (almost certainly higher than my highest), I was just saying you have trouble with different spells than I do.
I never really heard about MNKs being useless, although I do hear a lot about DRG. It's amazing how many higher levels literally say they "will never invite a DRG no matter what" or how "DRGs are the worst job in the game". I always liked DRGs, and often freaked out when i heard something that obtuse.
Edited, Tue Sep 21 13:22:26 2004 by Noblemyth
I was always sure you were higher level in other jobs (almost certainly higher than my highest), I was just saying you have trouble with different spells than I do.
I never really heard about MNKs being useless, although I do hear a lot about DRG. It's amazing how many higher levels literally say they "will never invite a DRG no matter what" or how "DRGs are the worst job in the game". I always liked DRGs, and often freaked out when i heard something that obtuse.
Edited, Tue Sep 21 13:22:26 2004 by Noblemyth
Noblemyth wrote:
Wow... just, wow...
I start a thread about educating others and myself, debunking rumors and so forth, and what do I get? I get people telling I'm bad at what I do, bashing me and not contributing. Frankly, I am a damned good RDM. Can I dispel, debuff, heal, and refresh at practically the same time? Yes, and I have done so in the past. But would it be better to have me debuff mainly and backup a good WHM, support a second RDM, or alternate with a WHM for serious Chains? I think so. It could even work with a BRD in the party to supprt the RDM-healer.
Edited, Tue Sep 21 09:25:35 2004 by Noblemyth
I start a thread about educating others and myself, debunking rumors and so forth, and what do I get? I get people telling I'm bad at what I do, bashing me and not contributing. Frankly, I am a damned good RDM. Can I dispel, debuff, heal, and refresh at practically the same time? Yes, and I have done so in the past. But would it be better to have me debuff mainly and backup a good WHM, support a second RDM, or alternate with a WHM for serious Chains? I think so. It could even work with a BRD in the party to supprt the RDM-healer.
Edited, Tue Sep 21 09:25:35 2004 by Noblemyth
eh? i just hinted that rdm is versatile. >< geez.
/em points at Enthuz.
Not you ^^
I meant Sabotendar (apologies for mispellings, I have a horrid memory for names). I state my opinion and he runs in insults at the ready, saying I'm not good at what I do best. I found it a little off-putting that he only came in to say I suck =|
And I just remembered one of the few things I ever heard about MNK: that they are good with undead. As far as I can remember I have heard absolutely nothing about them being bad... or being any good for that matter. Now that I think about it, I have almost never partied with MNKs; Mostly the basic DRK, PLD, WHM, BRD, and a buncha others, but almost never DRGs or MNKs. Weird...
Not you ^^
I meant Sabotendar (apologies for mispellings, I have a horrid memory for names). I state my opinion and he runs in insults at the ready, saying I'm not good at what I do best. I found it a little off-putting that he only came in to say I suck =|
And I just remembered one of the few things I ever heard about MNK: that they are good with undead. As far as I can remember I have heard absolutely nothing about them being bad... or being any good for that matter. Now that I think about it, I have almost never partied with MNKs; Mostly the basic DRK, PLD, WHM, BRD, and a buncha others, but almost never DRGs or MNKs. Weird...
No love for the bone crushers.. :-/ /cry
A RDM should be able to all those things, if you cant do that, you arent playing your RDM to the fullest, is that an insult?
sabotendar wrote:
A RDM should be able to all those things, if you cant do that, you arent playing your RDM to the fullest, is that an insult?
sorry sabotendar, but yes, it's an insult. it's all about potential, and i agree with you that the RDM has the potential to perform everything you listed. but you don't have to realize the full potential of any one job in order to be good at that job.
seriously, if you were a RDM in my party and you insisted on doing EVERYTHING that you stated, i'd have at least strongly advised you against it. at most, i'd have kicked you out for not performing the role i 'hired' you for.
because of the versatility of the RDM job, sometimes the RDMs think they can do everything. but in a PT, where other jobs are also involved, i believe in efficiency by specialization. a RDM who insists he knows better and would rather do his own thing will be better off solo-ing.
to clarify, i generally let the jobs i 'hire' into a PT how they want to be doing their job. i'm still utterly impressed by a SMN (drexil i think) who educated me on how blood pacts worked, and how keeping an avatar out to melee for that mob doesn't work as efficiently. and a rdm who educated me on how she'll be doing mostly enfeebs and refreshes. wow was i amazed when she used convert. she didn't melee though (sorry, i don't recall the name... ><). and another rdm that melee-ed with en-spells doing lovely damage to an elemental, but immediately reverted to spellcasting when we fighting gobs (again apologies, don't recall the name). lol, and the 2 SAMs (i think you're one of them sabotender) who taught me about the SAM's prowess where tp is involved.
the list of people teaching me stuff as i gain level can only increase. but i think i went off tangent on this one. ;)
You are a RDM, you are the mainhealer.
You cant debuff the mob since all your time goes into healing, Refresh is lacking for the same reason.
How is that good?
And why would you kick a job that does all that job can do?(hopefully not meleeing though)
This might not be a good example, but lets examine a PLD, he got some stuff to help him keep hate, flash, cures, provoke etc.
Each of those are debuff, refresh, cure. If a PLD can only do one of those things, is he still good? He might barely do what he was "hired" for, but he cant do the other things that help out the party.
But for a RDM, it might not be the future of the party lying in his hands if he dont do all of his job, but it will be much better if he does. But i cant see a job only good at one thing that can do, is great at the whole job.
And no, i dont think i was that SAM, i still havent turned in the items for the job -_-
You cant debuff the mob since all your time goes into healing, Refresh is lacking for the same reason.
How is that good?
And why would you kick a job that does all that job can do?(hopefully not meleeing though)
This might not be a good example, but lets examine a PLD, he got some stuff to help him keep hate, flash, cures, provoke etc.
Each of those are debuff, refresh, cure. If a PLD can only do one of those things, is he still good? He might barely do what he was "hired" for, but he cant do the other things that help out the party.
But for a RDM, it might not be the future of the party lying in his hands if he dont do all of his job, but it will be much better if he does. But i cant see a job only good at one thing that can do, is great at the whole job.
And no, i dont think i was that SAM, i still havent turned in the items for the job -_-
This is a long one. I apologize for the length, but I believe this will be the definitive argument on the behalf of all RDMs who don't want to use 400 MP every fight just because we can. Thank you for reading it, but I don't blame you if you don't lol
Well I said I wasn't going to defend myself, but I'm really tired of Sabotendar (I seriously hope that's the spelling again =/). I mean geez, did i say I only did one thing? Didn't I actually mention that I can do it all with great efficiency? I have put a lot of time, thought, and effort into doing everything I can. In a party, I'm a hyperactive ****, casting and meleeing, going for the Gold Medal of Multi-tasking. I just don't think that a RDM should be led around like a dog with two broken legs. Frankly, all I'm trying to say is that a RDM is better fitting one role at a time.
Here's the best example I can think of: a party with a MNK, PLD, THF, DRK, BLM, and RDM (me) for healing. It's an okay set-up, and one that could do well in most or all situations, depending on player intellignece. Here's my problem: the PLD needs Refresh; the MNK, DRK, and THF want Haste; the BLM wants Refresh; me as RDM need a Refresh above all others (basic rule of thumb, IMO), the DRK also wants a Refresh; I have to lay some Dispel action on occasion; the party wants me to Debuff; everyone wants a Protect III and Shell II.
If you can do all that without a problem, you are a liar. Which means a smart RDM has to make up his own mind about the priorities. Refresh on me and the PLD, ignore the BLM no matter what he/she says (they can rest if they want MP and stop yelling at me while I'm healing). Protect III on whoever will be getting the most hate (SATA partnered with a PLD means the DRK -assuming a WAR sub- will get one and so will the PLD and myself) and the puller. Shell II on everyone depending on the mob, none if we don't fight any magic wielders; Dispel of course. 2 debuffs of my choosing (if the party is doing well and no one is in any danger, I'll bump up to 3 - thank you SE for lowering the MP for Dia 2). Haste at my discretion (usually meaning one for the THF for a solid SATA hit, none if Convert is too far away and MP is low); if a member can't live without Haste (as so many seem to claim) then they suck out loud. I'd tell the DRK to lower his magic use a little bit, or rest on occasion, and let me Refresh him when he gets below half MP; sometimes I won't do it if my MP is low and I want to save a little to Convert after the next fight. I prefer to be the debuffer, not the healer described above, but XP is XP. Sabo, you ask why wold you kick a job that is doing all they can. The answer is because if they do all they can, they are using all their MP in two fights and are uable to sustain a Chain. It's like a BLM using every spell they can every single fight - they will have to rest so much they might as well not be there half the time.
That's how I roll. I've done it before, I'll do it again I assume, and with great pride in my badassness. It's all about picking your fights, not going into every brawl. All I'm saying is that people think because we have so many useful spells for party members that we HAVE to use every single one, forcing us into a corner. Either we do eveything they say and act like their b*tch or sound like a control freak and do what we feel is best.
That is my last official argument on the matter, as it clearly explains my role(s) and my decisions. If you still think I suck or that I should do more for a party after that list of stuff that I do (which I essentially took from a party I had in Garlaige Citadel), than I can only pity you for your ignorance of an entire class' abilities and skillz.
Thanks again for anyone who has gone to my defense, and I hope it will no longer be necessary ^^. I don't upset easily, but I go on a ravenous typing-spree when my honor, ability, or work-ethic is insulted (three of my proudest attributes).
Oh, and who ever called MNKs "Bone Crushers", thanks for giving me something to laugh at. Everytime I see a MNK now I'll immediately think of a chubby Black rapper with a 'fro lol
Edited, Thu Sep 23 08:50:00 2004 by Noblemyth
Well I said I wasn't going to defend myself, but I'm really tired of Sabotendar (I seriously hope that's the spelling again =/). I mean geez, did i say I only did one thing? Didn't I actually mention that I can do it all with great efficiency? I have put a lot of time, thought, and effort into doing everything I can. In a party, I'm a hyperactive ****, casting and meleeing, going for the Gold Medal of Multi-tasking. I just don't think that a RDM should be led around like a dog with two broken legs. Frankly, all I'm trying to say is that a RDM is better fitting one role at a time.
Here's the best example I can think of: a party with a MNK, PLD, THF, DRK, BLM, and RDM (me) for healing. It's an okay set-up, and one that could do well in most or all situations, depending on player intellignece. Here's my problem: the PLD needs Refresh; the MNK, DRK, and THF want Haste; the BLM wants Refresh; me as RDM need a Refresh above all others (basic rule of thumb, IMO), the DRK also wants a Refresh; I have to lay some Dispel action on occasion; the party wants me to Debuff; everyone wants a Protect III and Shell II.
If you can do all that without a problem, you are a liar. Which means a smart RDM has to make up his own mind about the priorities. Refresh on me and the PLD, ignore the BLM no matter what he/she says (they can rest if they want MP and stop yelling at me while I'm healing). Protect III on whoever will be getting the most hate (SATA partnered with a PLD means the DRK -assuming a WAR sub- will get one and so will the PLD and myself) and the puller. Shell II on everyone depending on the mob, none if we don't fight any magic wielders; Dispel of course. 2 debuffs of my choosing (if the party is doing well and no one is in any danger, I'll bump up to 3 - thank you SE for lowering the MP for Dia 2). Haste at my discretion (usually meaning one for the THF for a solid SATA hit, none if Convert is too far away and MP is low); if a member can't live without Haste (as so many seem to claim) then they suck out loud. I'd tell the DRK to lower his magic use a little bit, or rest on occasion, and let me Refresh him when he gets below half MP; sometimes I won't do it if my MP is low and I want to save a little to Convert after the next fight. I prefer to be the debuffer, not the healer described above, but XP is XP. Sabo, you ask why wold you kick a job that is doing all they can. The answer is because if they do all they can, they are using all their MP in two fights and are uable to sustain a Chain. It's like a BLM using every spell they can every single fight - they will have to rest so much they might as well not be there half the time.
That's how I roll. I've done it before, I'll do it again I assume, and with great pride in my badassness. It's all about picking your fights, not going into every brawl. All I'm saying is that people think because we have so many useful spells for party members that we HAVE to use every single one, forcing us into a corner. Either we do eveything they say and act like their b*tch or sound like a control freak and do what we feel is best.
That is my last official argument on the matter, as it clearly explains my role(s) and my decisions. If you still think I suck or that I should do more for a party after that list of stuff that I do (which I essentially took from a party I had in Garlaige Citadel), than I can only pity you for your ignorance of an entire class' abilities and skillz.
Thanks again for anyone who has gone to my defense, and I hope it will no longer be necessary ^^. I don't upset easily, but I go on a ravenous typing-spree when my honor, ability, or work-ethic is insulted (three of my proudest attributes).
Oh, and who ever called MNKs "Bone Crushers", thanks for giving me something to laugh at. Everytime I see a MNK now I'll immediately think of a chubby Black rapper with a 'fro lol
Edited, Thu Sep 23 08:50:00 2004 by Noblemyth
sabotendar wrote:
This might not be a good example, but lets examine a PLD, he got some stuff to help him keep hate, flash, cures, provoke etc.
Each of those are debuff, refresh, cure. If a PLD can only do one of those things, is he still good? He might barely do what he was "hired" for, but he cant do the other things that help out the party.
But for a RDM, it might not be the future of the party lying in his hands if he dont do all of his job, but it will be much better if he does. But i cant see a job only good at one thing that can do, is great at the whole job.
Each of those are debuff, refresh, cure. If a PLD can only do one of those things, is he still good? He might barely do what he was "hired" for, but he cant do the other things that help out the party.
But for a RDM, it might not be the future of the party lying in his hands if he dont do all of his job, but it will be much better if he does. But i cant see a job only good at one thing that can do, is great at the whole job.
for the sake of a discourse, i'd like to add that a PLD doesn't have voke. the only tool the PLD is given is his mp, and probably sentinel, and cover to take some damage (if you ever know how to use it ><). but that's being picky.
say, for now, that the PLD/WAR is specifically the tank you are looking at. the tools at your disposal are: MP (for flash and cure, AND banish, banish II, protect, protect II, shell, shell II), Provoke, Sentinel, Defender (level dependent), Berserk, and Shield Bash (if you have a shield, but for now let's assume the role of the perfect conventional tank that has one). (apologies in advance for my lack of depth. i'm only a 43 PLD with these many tools.)
let's get hate. how? i'll flash, voke, and cure myself. i'll also cure others if necessary, and i'll throw onto that sentinel and defender where appropriate. a couple of shield bashes when it FINALLY refreshes, and cover if i ever figure out how to use it effectively. ^^
that probably sets me down to 1/2 my full mp. (i'm hume, not a taru).
let's do ALL my job can do, that ALSO causes hate. let's banish, and banish II (PLDs, cos of flash, have VERY high divine magic stats), and when i feel like it, buff people too with protect and protect II. shell? i'm not the magic sort, but ok, why not? but hey, i have sentinel right? let's do more damage! i berserk.
result? i cause a lot of hate, yes. but i'm probably at 0 mp now. and probably messing up the healers who are trying to cure me too. heck, i might even have caused the blm to back-up cure, instead of nuking. which kills THEIR mp, and increases downtime. this also takes away the chain-xp bonuses.
now, PLDs only need to worry about hate. RDMs have the potential to worry about more. a good PLD is a PLD that knows how to keep hate, but not at the expense of causing too much down-time. a good PLD is one that keeps all his members alive, especially if invincible is needed to be used. a good PLD is NOT someone who insists on being a damage dealer in addition to being a tank, especially when the mp cost of it is probably going to be high.
i reiterate: be a party player, not a solo-er in my PT, or you're out at the earliest convenience. (i only have such a say when i'm the leader of the PT, to clarify. i fall into my mundane role as PLD if i'm invited. ;))
Noblemyth wrote:
Here's the best example I can think of: a party with a MNK, PLD, THF, DRK, BLM, and RDM (me) for healing. It's an okay set-up, and one that could do well in most or all situations, depending on player intellignece. Here's my problem: the PLD needs Refresh; the MNK, DRK, and THF want Haste; the BLM wants Refresh; me as RDM need a Refresh above all others (basic rule of thumb, IMO), the DRK also wants a Refresh; I have to lay some Dispel action on occasion; the party wants me to Debuff; everyone wants a Protect III and Shell II.
If you can do all that without a problem, you are a liar. Which means a smart RDM has to make up his own mind about the priorities. Refresh on me and the PLD, ignore the BLM no matter what he/she says (they can rest if they want MP and stop yelling at me while I'm healing). Protect III on whoever will be getting the most hate (SATA partnered with a PLD means the DRK -assuming a WAR sub- will get one and so will the PLD and myself) and the puller. Shell II on everyone depending on the mob, none if we don't fight any magic wielders; Dispel of course. 2 debuffs of my choosing (if the party is doing well and no one is in any danger, I'll bump up to 3 - thank you SE for lowering the MP for Dia 2). Haste at my discretion (usually meaning one for the THF for a solid SATA hit, none if Convert is too far away and MP is low); if a member can't live without Haste (as so many seem to claim) then they suck out loud. I'd tell the DRK to lower his magic use a little bit, or rest on occasion, and let me Refresh him when he gets below half MP; sometimes I won't do it if my MP is low and I want to save a little to Convert after the next fight. I prefer to be the debuffer, not the healer described above, but XP is XP. Sabo, you ask why wold you kick a job that is doing all they can. The answer is because if they do all they can, they are using all their MP in two fights and are uable to sustain a Chain. It's like a BLM using every spell they can every single fight - they will have to rest so much they might as well not be there half the time.
Edited, Thu Sep 23 08:50:00 2004 by Noblemyth
nice. but why refresh the drk at all? unless he's spell-pulling. :) refresh on blm makes more sense. i want to pull, pull and pull. with nukes, it makes it easier, but that's dependent on your PT i suppose.
haste on drk preferable to haste on thf. sorry, but i like more uber dmg dealt consistently than just relying on an SA + Viper Bite. but hey, you're the rdm, not i. :)
no, they don't suck if they can't live without haste. >< they just got comfy with the buffs. ;)
LOL, i'm even more stingy in mp use than a rdm. this is bad. ><
OMG Enthuz got his feathers ruffled. Never thought I'd see the day. But here's my two cents: While playing a DRK I definitely think that Refresh is beneficial for them. Once you are at 41 (refresh level) you have up to 5 absorb scrolls at your disposal. In my static PT, I cast a mob specific absorb spell at the beginning of fight. I also cast for a magic burst. With our fragmentation SC, we get 3 magic bursts. BLM usually hits over 100, RDM for just over 100, and me very close to 100. 3x Thunder MB is a beautiful thing on crawlers. Here's the problem, you can't Aspir crawlers. ><. So after a couple fights of Absorb/MB, I'm drained. Elfs have NO mp. :-/ So when we are on Chain4, there's no more Absorb-VIT, or AGI (two main ones I used on crawlers). We are also now short 1 MB. The extra 100 dmg is nice to have. :-)
Since I am involved in the SC, and it takes forever to get TP with that scythe (come on lvl 40 tilt belt. :-)), resting means less SCs and less triple MBs. So when refresh hits (3 more levels!! :-)), I will definitely be looking for it as well as the PLD, WHM, and BLM. Our poor lil Taru RDM is gonna be busy. :-b
Since I am involved in the SC, and it takes forever to get TP with that scythe (come on lvl 40 tilt belt. :-)), resting means less SCs and less triple MBs. So when refresh hits (3 more levels!! :-)), I will definitely be looking for it as well as the PLD, WHM, and BLM. Our poor lil Taru RDM is gonna be busy. :-b
LeetFade wrote:
OMG Enthuz got his feathers ruffled. Never thought I'd see the day. But here's my two cents: While playing a DRK I definitely think that Refresh is beneficial for them. Once you are at 41 (refresh level) you have up to 5 absorb scrolls at your disposal. In my static PT, I cast a mob specific absorb spell at the beginning of fight. I also cast for a magic burst. With our fragmentation SC, we get 3 magic bursts. BLM usually hits over 100, RDM for just over 100, and me very close to 100. 3x Thunder MB is a beautiful thing on crawlers. Here's the problem, you can't Aspir crawlers. ><. So after a couple fights of Absorb/MB, I'm drained. Elfs have NO mp. :-/ So when we are on Chain4, there's no more Absorb-VIT, or AGI (two main ones I used on crawlers). We are also now short 1 MB. The extra 100 dmg is nice to have. :-)
LOL, nah, not ruffled. well, ok, just a little. >< just disliking it when people come in and tell another outright that they aren't doing their job when they seem not to fulfil their full potential. i think rdms are sometimes unjustly dealt with cos they are the jack-of-all-trades in this game. just cos you have the potential to do it all doesn't mean you have to do it all to be good. arguably, the rdm that accomplishes all it can do WITHOUT the inevitable consequences is a rdm to be revered. maybe the use of constant food or perishables? very costly, but probably a means to circumvent the inherent problems.
hmm... now that you mention it, i guess drks should get refreshes after all. poor taru rdm alright. >< my taru drk in SP uses aspir like you said to lessen the tax on mp, guess why i didn't think they needed it. but i guess mob-specifics require closer attention.
In defense of some, yes you have to be able to do all the abilities of your job, HOWEVER not necessarily at the same time.
PLD which is what i am is different from rdm (duh ><) however if pld isn't approched properly its just as easy to mess up the pt as if rdm isn't approched properly.
I.E. - most people look for the rdm slot to be filled w/ a debuffer and refresher. Can rdm's do more than this? yes, and I dont mind a melee rdm AS LONG AS HIS PRIORITIES aren't lvling his sword.
rdm can do more, but their priorities SHOULD be but not LIMITED to refresh, debuff, backup healer
those that swear they should melee to do dmg shouldn't be rdm's cause rdm are right down w/ pld when it comes to dmg, even with the en-spells. but there is no reason not to have a fully leveld sword, or other weapon.
Please feel free to say i'm way off base (as I dont play rdm yet) but thats what I see rdm's do 95% of the time.
PLD which is what i am is different from rdm (duh ><) however if pld isn't approched properly its just as easy to mess up the pt as if rdm isn't approched properly.
I.E. - most people look for the rdm slot to be filled w/ a debuffer and refresher. Can rdm's do more than this? yes, and I dont mind a melee rdm AS LONG AS HIS PRIORITIES aren't lvling his sword.
rdm can do more, but their priorities SHOULD be but not LIMITED to refresh, debuff, backup healer
those that swear they should melee to do dmg shouldn't be rdm's cause rdm are right down w/ pld when it comes to dmg, even with the en-spells. but there is no reason not to have a fully leveld sword, or other weapon.
Please feel free to say i'm way off base (as I dont play rdm yet) but thats what I see rdm's do 95% of the time.
Stick with me kid, I'll take you far. ;-b j/k man.
We actually made it to nest beetles last night and I couldn't have been happier. It's funny cuz with my Monk, I dread fighting beetles (Leetfade misses the Nest Beetle.. Over and over again) but with my DRK, :-) Leetfade casts Aspir. 54mp drained from the Nest Beetle. That's at least one more Absorb spell. :-) Just gotta get my BLM Aspir so he can do the same. We're doin all we can to help that poor Taru. Sorry Speck. Well, not really. :-p
EDIT: General question. I hit reply to this on Enthuz's post and it still put it at the bottom. How do I append it to his post so it shows that it was off of his? THanks!
Edited, Fri Sep 24 14:32:20 2004 by LeetFade
We actually made it to nest beetles last night and I couldn't have been happier. It's funny cuz with my Monk, I dread fighting beetles (Leetfade misses the Nest Beetle.. Over and over again) but with my DRK, :-) Leetfade casts Aspir. 54mp drained from the Nest Beetle. That's at least one more Absorb spell. :-) Just gotta get my BLM Aspir so he can do the same. We're doin all we can to help that poor Taru. Sorry Speck. Well, not really. :-p
EDIT: General question. I hit reply to this on Enthuz's post and it still put it at the bottom. How do I append it to his post so it shows that it was off of his? THanks!
Edited, Fri Sep 24 14:32:20 2004 by LeetFade
Warf I agree with you. We do have our RDM smacking the mob for his whopping 5-15dmg while fighting. As long as he's on top of the spells he needs to cast, why not add the nickle and dime damage in? Every little bit helps. :-)
I like to Refresh the DRK for absorb-spell usefulness pretty much.
The thing is some DRKs don't even use any magic, so I have to wait. If they use it too often, I tell them to slow themselves down a little bit. If too little, I don't say sh*t lol. Hey, it's one less Refresh for me ^^
For Haste, I guess a DRK can do better than a THF, but neither is a top notch, absolutely must-buff. I would Haste the THF and DRK probably in intervals, but the THF would get it first, meaning I'd be skipping the DRK sometimes. When Haste comes into play, it's all up to the RDM, I think, if they are the healer. They can do as many or as little as they want, although I prefer to keep my MP usage lower when I can.
Another thing is the quality of the group. If some members just plain suck, they might need some buffs more than others, although I might just punish them by leaving them alone (depending on the job; no matte how bad a PLD is you can't ignore them). To me, helping the skilled peeps in the party get better and more efficient is better than making crappy players slightly less crappy. Less crappy is still crappy.
Crappy is a funny word. Say it out loud. It's like scuba. Say that one too. Funny sounding XD
/em points at Hank Venture.
The thing is some DRKs don't even use any magic, so I have to wait. If they use it too often, I tell them to slow themselves down a little bit. If too little, I don't say sh*t lol. Hey, it's one less Refresh for me ^^
For Haste, I guess a DRK can do better than a THF, but neither is a top notch, absolutely must-buff. I would Haste the THF and DRK probably in intervals, but the THF would get it first, meaning I'd be skipping the DRK sometimes. When Haste comes into play, it's all up to the RDM, I think, if they are the healer. They can do as many or as little as they want, although I prefer to keep my MP usage lower when I can.
Another thing is the quality of the group. If some members just plain suck, they might need some buffs more than others, although I might just punish them by leaving them alone (depending on the job; no matte how bad a PLD is you can't ignore them). To me, helping the skilled peeps in the party get better and more efficient is better than making crappy players slightly less crappy. Less crappy is still crappy.
Crappy is a funny word. Say it out loud. It's like scuba. Say that one too. Funny sounding XD
/em points at Hank Venture.
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