Yea, it's one of thoooooooose threads.
Been a while since I wrote a hate thread on Alla, ahh the good old days. Anyway, I'll get right to the story.
So, I'm sure up to this point in our FFXI careers we've all leveled one of those jobs that spends a significant amount of their EXP time as a solo player. Although just about all jobs can solo, I'm thinking more specificaly around the jobs BST, BLM, and SMN. Why, only a few weeks ago I was killing Pugils with Leeches in Buburimbu peninsula when some other BST shows up and starts killing Leeches with Crabs! lolwtf! Then just as I go running for my life from a Pugil, hunting the beach for another pet Leech, he claims it with his Crab. Of course the Pugil kills me and eats me like sushi while I stand dumfounded that another BST would to this to me.
But he's not the focus of my story as I believe this person was just stupid and not a good example of the regular population.
If you go to the BST forum, you'll see that there's a common code to BST, and soloing in general. Respect others camps. All BST eventualy have to deal with parties coming in and taking their camp. Nobody respects a BST's space, it's just common. But what's worse is when a BST takes another BST's camp. But this code I speak of is really just common courtesy. Much like common sense, it's just not that common.
So my friend Myst is a level 64 BLM. She has never done anything wrong, and is much to quiet to really make friends, let alone make someone angry with her. She's shy to say the least. She has been playing over a year now, and much like a lot of jobs between 37-70 is having a difficult time getting EXP invites. She gets them at the pace of about 2 to 3 per month, and usualy one of those were horrible parties. A friend of ours pointedus to a great solo guide! Myst went from 61-64 in about a week, it's really great!
Now for the story.
So there she is in Bibiki Bay killing "Goblin's Rarab" Having come over to my house at around 3:00 to play FFXI, I watched her play on her laptop while I did my own thing from my Laptop. As I'm watching, these other people show up. It's 2X BLU and 2X NPCs. Now, ofen enough Myst will get to camp and see that it's taken. At this point she'll do two things.
1) Log off and come back a little later.
2) Ask the person if they'd like to team up.
Well, these people just started pulling the Rarab.
Now, I know what you are going to say. The same jack-*** remark every self centered jerk makes opposed to doing the right thing and respecting another person.
It's not YOUR mob. It's not your camp. The mob isn't yours if it's yellow. And all that jazz that sounds great until you are the one being crapped on.
Also, it's necesary to explain how this camp works for a BLM.
To kill the rarab, you have to wait until the goblin is facing away from you, then pull the bunnie of doom with a tier 3 spell. Then you run the mob back to camp and sleep it, hoping that a shadow or stoneskin keeps you from being interupted. If you are, you have to stun the mob, then cast sleep again. Then if it is slept, you finish it with Flare. Flare will not one shot the rabbit, you have to pull it with a tier 3 spell. What that means is that you cannot pull with stun, or paralyze, or any fast casting spell, or else you will die. And that is why she couldn't compete with 2X BLU using a ranged weapon to pull bunnies.
So these people move right into her camp, and completely dominate the bunnie. Myst, having no chance just loggs off. She loggs back on maybe 45 minutes later, and they are still at it.
At this point, I'm pissed. I get on my 75 MNK and head out there. Damn strait I'm not going to put up with this crap. I killed the BST Goblin for about 45 MIN.
Then these people
Sariah
Modavi
start saying all kinds of retarded stuff in /say.
Stuff like "Fine, we'll log off so you little babies can have your way."
and
"See what happens when some 17 year old gets a job to 75"
(I'm 27 btw)
And just all kinds of immature stuff.
Apparently they are adults when they take a camp, but when I take it from them, we're immature children.
I log after they dissapear, but they come back within 15 minutes. They get one pull of the bunnie and the louder of the two Sariah says it must be Karma.... Heh.... ok.
Well, I invite Myst and we kill goblins for the better part of 2 hours. Then I had an event, and we quit.
Log on Sunday and she's there atarting at 10:00 AM for about 15 minutes before Modavi and Sariah logg in at the same spot. Same thing, no respect and just take the camp.
I head over there and killed goblins for about 2 hours, until I got bored. Then when I signed on at 7:00 PM for an event, they are still there. I killed the goblin once more and listened to more of their /say crap.
They said all kinds of things. They called me names like *****, and *****, and told me how much of a loser I must be if I didn't have anyhting better to do than kill goblins, and the whole 9 yards. It was a very good display of highly-intelectual people. The maturity level and respect of these two was outstanding. At one point one of them even said "It was great seeing Myst with her flag up all day and not get an invite. That's what happens when you get a bad reputation."
I'm not stupid, hardly anyone has heard of Myst, as she hardly ever talks. And if they did remember her, I don't think there's anything bad to be said about someone who never goes AFK, and stays in a party to the bitter end. You respect EXP more when you get one invite a week.
Oh did I mention that they won't even admit that Myst was there first? They say "Someone was here when we got here, but it wasn't Myst." First off, I know it was Myst, but 2ndly even if it wasn't, they still blatently took the camp with no respect for the person there already.
Ok ok ok, damn that was long. But I gotta tell you, I have been playing since NA release and I've had more than my fare share of asshats. The thing is, after 3+ years there's not many days I log on and have a great time like I used to. Then days like these when I have to share the game with little punks like those two just makes me want to uninstall. Well, I wasn't about to resourt to name calling, nor could I get to their level. But I'm not about to let them get the best of me, that's why this thread had to be created. Lets hope that there is some sort of "Karma" and I'm just gonna give it a little help.
Thanks everyone, see you in the game!
~Singular > Bismarck
- Forums
- FFXI Servers
- Bismarck
- I can't stand some people.
I can't stand some people. Follow
i know exactly where you are coming from sing. i had to do basicly the same thing for a good friend who was trying to solo his BLM but in a different area. an exp pt came in and camped on him and pulled all his stuff so i just went over and did the exact same thing you did. they got the hint after about 20min and moved camp though.
if those d*uche bags keep doing that and i'm online let me know i'll come out there and hang with you two and help **** them off. i solo a lot on my drg so i know how annoying it is to have a camp taken from you so i know exactly what she's going through.
if those d*uche bags keep doing that and i'm online let me know i'll come out there and hang with you two and help **** them off. i solo a lot on my drg so i know how annoying it is to have a camp taken from you so i know exactly what she's going through.
Quote:
while I did my own thing from my Laptop.
Bow-chicka-bow bow...
Seems to me like Gam's thread derailment has begun.
Anyway, back on topic. I probably would have done something similar to what you did Sing. That's one thing I hate about this game. There's too many ignorant asshats.
Anyway, back on topic. I probably would have done something similar to what you did Sing. That's one thing I hate about this game. There's too many ignorant asshats.
Siroggel
Drg: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?160201
War: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?160345
(These are out of date, and I'm too lazy to keep up)
Bismarck
Drg: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?160201
War: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?160345
(These are out of date, and I'm too lazy to keep up)
Bismarck
Ah.. now you understand why there's so few of us at 75 ;). lol. I'm sorry to hear about your experiences, some players can be real c**k-knockers. You probably ran into some people leveling bst just to get some seals / get to level 40 to do BCNMs. Just hang in there. And trust me, karma always returns to beastmasters, I think it affects them more than anyone else lol.
Edited, Apr 16th 2007 11:01pm by galkaBST
Edited, Apr 16th 2007 11:01pm by galkaBST
Yea no, seriously that's why the boards are here. We are a community!!!!
I didn't mean to try to derail it (yes I did!), it just seemed too perfect to pass up.
I didn't mean to try to derail it (yes I did!), it just seemed too perfect to pass up.
Singular:
I'm sorry this has happened to Myst. Leveling BLM these days is hard enough, due to lack of party invites, without other players being jerks. I wish I could say it gets better as you gain levels.
Unfortunately, at every level, at every turn, there is some immature player waiting to destroy another's fun, another's xp or even another's reputation. You did the right thing, Singular; you did what needed to be done, including posting about it on this forum.
Will it do any good? Will those two learn any lesson? Don't count on it, sad to say. However, if I'm on and see Myst soloing in an area in which those guys show up as well... hmmmm... maybe, I'll have to check things out and blow up a few goblins myself. :P
Zuzeeque
Edited, Apr 17th 2007 8:45am by Zuzeeque
I'm sorry this has happened to Myst. Leveling BLM these days is hard enough, due to lack of party invites, without other players being jerks. I wish I could say it gets better as you gain levels.
Unfortunately, at every level, at every turn, there is some immature player waiting to destroy another's fun, another's xp or even another's reputation. You did the right thing, Singular; you did what needed to be done, including posting about it on this forum.
Will it do any good? Will those two learn any lesson? Don't count on it, sad to say. However, if I'm on and see Myst soloing in an area in which those guys show up as well... hmmmm... maybe, I'll have to check things out and blow up a few goblins myself. :P
Zuzeeque
Edited, Apr 17th 2007 8:45am by Zuzeeque
I'm leveling Dragoon a lot, now. DAMN do I understand! I would be more than happy to cause a little chaos on your behalf. Pricks like that deserve to be screwed with.
For the record, I miss the BLMS
For the record, I miss the BLMS
Jeeze they harsh on 17 year olds. I'm 17 with a 75 job, but damn, I'm not some immature jerkface!
lol Anyway, yeah that's totally messed up. I hope Myst pulls out of her slump. We've all been through 'em, some worse than others.
lol Anyway, yeah that's totally messed up. I hope Myst pulls out of her slump. We've all been through 'em, some worse than others.
Scholar
26 posts
I'm sorry about this, but this is what happens when I have 50 pages of papers to write, yet constantly keep finding other things to spend my time on.
I am going to try my hardest not to be depricating, but maintain an impartial perspective on the situation. Please forgive me if I confuse names or mix up sexes.
Point 1): The Perspective of the Other Players
Sariah and Modavi entered Myst's area in which she was leveling (Fact).
Myst logs off (Fact).
Approximately 45 minutes later, Myst logs back on to find Sariah and Modavi still there. (Subjective Fact due to time, but for sake of argument, true).
Singular goes down to kill the mobs they are fighting with the intent of disrupting them (Fact, as according to Singular).
At what point did ownership of the camp switch from "Myst" to "Sariah and Modavi?" Did it ever switch? According to Singular, Myst never stated anything to these two players, which would create some clout as to their rudeness, but she simply logged off giving up all claim to ownership (in some sense, I would argue). 45 minutes later, Singular then does exactly what he claims Sariah and Modavi did to Myst... he one-ups them by sinking down to their level and doing the same behavior. This back and forth behavior of trying to grab the camp continues on for what I understand to be several hours.
The concept of ownership behind "I was there first" is the same logic children use to claim things they want... Rather than spend so much of your time trying to get vengeance in a "war" that can only lead to you wasting your time, in the same time period, you could have easily gained experience in another area or done something more productive. Singular's behavior in this situation FURTHERS this type of behavior between players.
What I hope to gain from this post is hopefully a greater understanding of why people seem to act so completely irrationally. As if MMOs hold some underlying social rules that everyone should not only follow, but be aware fully aware of. Or the idea that players never give into temptation, never blur the lines between what is best for himself or herself and what is best for all. I'm not accusing Singular of doing exactly this in the past, but it's infallible to believe that any person is completely free of ever ******** someone else over for the sake of their own immediate benefit. People are human, people are bastards, that does not suddenly mean you get the free right to be a ******* too (thank god our laws are not based on an eye for an eye). Both parties thought they had a right to the camp, yet neither one wanted to budge and as a result both suffered and acted like children.
I'm sorry, but in some battles, all you can do is lose.
Edited, Apr 17th 2007 7:50pm by Hephaestus
I am going to try my hardest not to be depricating, but maintain an impartial perspective on the situation. Please forgive me if I confuse names or mix up sexes.
Point 1): The Perspective of the Other Players
Sariah and Modavi entered Myst's area in which she was leveling (Fact).
Myst logs off (Fact).
Approximately 45 minutes later, Myst logs back on to find Sariah and Modavi still there. (Subjective Fact due to time, but for sake of argument, true).
Singular goes down to kill the mobs they are fighting with the intent of disrupting them (Fact, as according to Singular).
At what point did ownership of the camp switch from "Myst" to "Sariah and Modavi?" Did it ever switch? According to Singular, Myst never stated anything to these two players, which would create some clout as to their rudeness, but she simply logged off giving up all claim to ownership (in some sense, I would argue). 45 minutes later, Singular then does exactly what he claims Sariah and Modavi did to Myst... he one-ups them by sinking down to their level and doing the same behavior. This back and forth behavior of trying to grab the camp continues on for what I understand to be several hours.
The concept of ownership behind "I was there first" is the same logic children use to claim things they want... Rather than spend so much of your time trying to get vengeance in a "war" that can only lead to you wasting your time, in the same time period, you could have easily gained experience in another area or done something more productive. Singular's behavior in this situation FURTHERS this type of behavior between players.
What I hope to gain from this post is hopefully a greater understanding of why people seem to act so completely irrationally. As if MMOs hold some underlying social rules that everyone should not only follow, but be aware fully aware of. Or the idea that players never give into temptation, never blur the lines between what is best for himself or herself and what is best for all. I'm not accusing Singular of doing exactly this in the past, but it's infallible to believe that any person is completely free of ever ******** someone else over for the sake of their own immediate benefit. People are human, people are bastards, that does not suddenly mean you get the free right to be a ******* too (thank god our laws are not based on an eye for an eye). Both parties thought they had a right to the camp, yet neither one wanted to budge and as a result both suffered and acted like children.
I'm sorry, but in some battles, all you can do is lose.
Edited, Apr 17th 2007 7:50pm by Hephaestus
Scholar
48 posts
seriously...Singular you are such a jerk...quit MPKing me already too.
Hephaestus:
First off let me say, that was a very well written post. You managed to respond to my post in a non-biased, non-threatening manner. In other words, I wasn't offended instantly and I was able to read your post and understand your points correctly.
I frequent these boards. I can sometimes use the internet while I work, and what better thing to do than study the game I enjoy and spend so much of my time doing. What I see from this community, and to some degree from your post, is a blatant disregard for what's right and what's wrong.
I don't need to defend my actions as I did what I believe was correct. I did not describe every detail as throughly as I could have, but then the post would have been too long to hold interest. What I possibly didn't make clear enough was, Myst left the camp after attempting to continue for a somewhat brief period of time. In that period of time, she did not try and make a dialect with these people, as they were blatantly not worried about her presence and what they had just done to her. THIS is what I felt was wrong.
Do I care about Myst's EXP? Yea, a little.
But what made me furious was the way she was treated. I could have easily just taken her to another camp. But those people just stepped on her. I've been stepped on before, in real life as well as on a video game. The problem is, there's no justice, or threat when playing in a virtual world. Any jerk can ruin another persons day without a care or threat of justice.
So, to get to my main point. There's a part of me that knows what's right and what's wrong. It's far too often on-line that people do stuff that's blatantly wrong! It amazes me how these people don't stop and think what their words and actions do to the person on the other side of the internet. All the time on-line the smaller people get stepped on. All the time on these very forums people get bashed even if their intentions and words were meant to help or be kind. Then others feed off of causing others pain and add in to the mess. The obvious problem is, there's no consequences.
If a guy walks up to you in real life and calls you a *****, and attempts to hurt your feelings, what do you do? You have the choice to defend yourself. Actually, it's much less likely that someone will step on you in real life because it's more likely they will have consequences to deal with. Bluntly, if some guy said the things those two were saying to us in real life, I'd surely punch them in the face. People like that NEED to learn that there are consequences for their actions. if there wasn't, then people would step on us all right and left, much like what happens in FFXI.
So, to stop rambling, and respond with my thoughts on your post. Was it right for me to kill that goblin and fester more hatred and animosity between players? Probably not. But I think the worse of the two evils would have been to let people like that do what they did with absolutely no consequences. Personally, I couldn't just walk away and let them hurt my friends feelings and I took whatever action I could. I've always hated bullies, and I'll never let one bully me or my friends without a fight!
First off let me say, that was a very well written post. You managed to respond to my post in a non-biased, non-threatening manner. In other words, I wasn't offended instantly and I was able to read your post and understand your points correctly.
I frequent these boards. I can sometimes use the internet while I work, and what better thing to do than study the game I enjoy and spend so much of my time doing. What I see from this community, and to some degree from your post, is a blatant disregard for what's right and what's wrong.
I don't need to defend my actions as I did what I believe was correct. I did not describe every detail as throughly as I could have, but then the post would have been too long to hold interest. What I possibly didn't make clear enough was, Myst left the camp after attempting to continue for a somewhat brief period of time. In that period of time, she did not try and make a dialect with these people, as they were blatantly not worried about her presence and what they had just done to her. THIS is what I felt was wrong.
Do I care about Myst's EXP? Yea, a little.
But what made me furious was the way she was treated. I could have easily just taken her to another camp. But those people just stepped on her. I've been stepped on before, in real life as well as on a video game. The problem is, there's no justice, or threat when playing in a virtual world. Any jerk can ruin another persons day without a care or threat of justice.
So, to get to my main point. There's a part of me that knows what's right and what's wrong. It's far too often on-line that people do stuff that's blatantly wrong! It amazes me how these people don't stop and think what their words and actions do to the person on the other side of the internet. All the time on-line the smaller people get stepped on. All the time on these very forums people get bashed even if their intentions and words were meant to help or be kind. Then others feed off of causing others pain and add in to the mess. The obvious problem is, there's no consequences.
If a guy walks up to you in real life and calls you a *****, and attempts to hurt your feelings, what do you do? You have the choice to defend yourself. Actually, it's much less likely that someone will step on you in real life because it's more likely they will have consequences to deal with. Bluntly, if some guy said the things those two were saying to us in real life, I'd surely punch them in the face. People like that NEED to learn that there are consequences for their actions. if there wasn't, then people would step on us all right and left, much like what happens in FFXI.
So, to stop rambling, and respond with my thoughts on your post. Was it right for me to kill that goblin and fester more hatred and animosity between players? Probably not. But I think the worse of the two evils would have been to let people like that do what they did with absolutely no consequences. Personally, I couldn't just walk away and let them hurt my friends feelings and I took whatever action I could. I've always hated bullies, and I'll never let one bully me or my friends without a fight!
Scholar
26 posts
I was afraid you would use that argument, so I already have my counter ready ;)
Point 1)
On an individual basis, your behavior is (for lack of a better word that does not connote negativity) "selfish." From an individual standpoint, you are enacting justice from your own personal perspective. What is right and wrong is purely subjective in some sense, as I would like to argue. Just as in the real world, you do not have the right to enact justice on your own, it's wrong, and if everyone did it we would probably be a lot worse off.
If everyone acted like you did in that situation, we would constantly have these little feuds. As a matter of fact, this is exactly what happens as a result of everyone playing proverbial tag. You hit me for some reason, I want to hit you back, you get pissed and want to hit me back, and this continues on and on... It does absolutely no good on a global, communal level to engage in this type of warfare. You as an individual are not changing global perceptions, you are simply perpetuating a social behavior in being acceptable because everyone has an incentive to engage in it.
Don't do what is best for yourself, but what is best for the community. Form a pro-active alliance of players who can exert some type of social control over everyone else in the league and simply increase your numbers rather than taking the law into your own hands and thinking you can make things better for everyone else by behaving just as childish as they.
Point 2)
I wanted to say more, but couldn't think of any reasonable transition.
The second thing I wanted to say was that different cultures and ideologies exist on the game that are all equally valid. I don't see how anyone can say that theirs is essentially more right than others. From one perspective, you had initial claim over the camp and should therefore have a right to it. From another perspective, possession is considered 9/10ths of the law and the other party gained it from you when you left, and you took it back with your 75 Monk. Right and wrong are how you see things, not how things are. I am in no way claiming what you did was wrong, but I'm not saying it was right either, because there are at least two sides to every story and everyone is able to see things a little differently.
I just cannot stand (as this post is titled) how people can live in a society where they constantly have to sacrifice their own ideologies for democracy, yet have a complete lack of understanding to do so in an online environment. By this I mean that we have to abide by laws we do not agree with for the betterment of everyone else (ie. I can't go to a 7-11 store and steal the candy because it's so chocolatey and tasty because if everyone did that we would not be able to have commerce).
So I ask you, Singular, and anyone else reading this thread: how can perpetuating the EXACT thing you are trying to stop be the lesser of two evils? All it does is turn you into the bully.
Point 3) - a very minor one
I have a pet peeve when people use bad analogies, so feel free to rip mine to shreds if I ever do the same.
From your post, you are clearly intelligent enough to realize (as I know you simply did so for colloqial reasons) that if you were to punch someone in the face for them saying things to you, you could be pressed for assault charges as people can almost say anything to your face (besides death threats) under the first amendment. Also, I'm pretty sure the law is the same in most other Western countries. So, hopefully you were using this analogy for simplicity, but if not, I do not see how it is apt.
Edited, Apr 17th 2007 11:30pm by Hephaestus
Point 1)
On an individual basis, your behavior is (for lack of a better word that does not connote negativity) "selfish." From an individual standpoint, you are enacting justice from your own personal perspective. What is right and wrong is purely subjective in some sense, as I would like to argue. Just as in the real world, you do not have the right to enact justice on your own, it's wrong, and if everyone did it we would probably be a lot worse off.
If everyone acted like you did in that situation, we would constantly have these little feuds. As a matter of fact, this is exactly what happens as a result of everyone playing proverbial tag. You hit me for some reason, I want to hit you back, you get pissed and want to hit me back, and this continues on and on... It does absolutely no good on a global, communal level to engage in this type of warfare. You as an individual are not changing global perceptions, you are simply perpetuating a social behavior in being acceptable because everyone has an incentive to engage in it.
Don't do what is best for yourself, but what is best for the community. Form a pro-active alliance of players who can exert some type of social control over everyone else in the league and simply increase your numbers rather than taking the law into your own hands and thinking you can make things better for everyone else by behaving just as childish as they.
Point 2)
I wanted to say more, but couldn't think of any reasonable transition.
The second thing I wanted to say was that different cultures and ideologies exist on the game that are all equally valid. I don't see how anyone can say that theirs is essentially more right than others. From one perspective, you had initial claim over the camp and should therefore have a right to it. From another perspective, possession is considered 9/10ths of the law and the other party gained it from you when you left, and you took it back with your 75 Monk. Right and wrong are how you see things, not how things are. I am in no way claiming what you did was wrong, but I'm not saying it was right either, because there are at least two sides to every story and everyone is able to see things a little differently.
I just cannot stand (as this post is titled) how people can live in a society where they constantly have to sacrifice their own ideologies for democracy, yet have a complete lack of understanding to do so in an online environment. By this I mean that we have to abide by laws we do not agree with for the betterment of everyone else (ie. I can't go to a 7-11 store and steal the candy because it's so chocolatey and tasty because if everyone did that we would not be able to have commerce).
So I ask you, Singular, and anyone else reading this thread: how can perpetuating the EXACT thing you are trying to stop be the lesser of two evils? All it does is turn you into the bully.
Point 3) - a very minor one
I have a pet peeve when people use bad analogies, so feel free to rip mine to shreds if I ever do the same.
From your post, you are clearly intelligent enough to realize (as I know you simply did so for colloqial reasons) that if you were to punch someone in the face for them saying things to you, you could be pressed for assault charges as people can almost say anything to your face (besides death threats) under the first amendment. Also, I'm pretty sure the law is the same in most other Western countries. So, hopefully you were using this analogy for simplicity, but if not, I do not see how it is apt.
Edited, Apr 17th 2007 11:30pm by Hephaestus
25 posts
I feel where you are coming from. Frankly I dont understand people like the 2 blu you described. Why do people like them play MMO's ? Is it cuz they dislike their fellow human's so much, that even in their recreational time they want to log in to disrespect and ridicule them ? You would think an antisocial person like the 2 you were describing would prefer to play a single player game, that way they can have the whole game to themselves, and not have to worry about failing, yet again, to thrive in a social environment.
Very well written.
I have to resort to my believe in religion. I'm a struggling Christian/atheist. Part of me believes that someone like Ghandi did nothing but good. But from a Christian's point of view, he'll go to hell for not believing in Jesus. I think more bluntly. There are two extremes, good and evil. Also, I'm aware my idea of what's good and evil are different from everyone else. Sometimes that difference is very very slight, or incredibly drastic. To be honest with myself, I have to have strong ideals of what's wrong and right, and never stray or else admit that my ideals were wrong and reconsider everything that's happened in my life to date.
I really like your 2nd paragraph. The flaw is, if you knew I'd hit you back, you wouldn't hit me in the first place. In FFXI, there's no threat of pain for doing the wrong thing. A person's persona can flourish in such a world where there's no consequences to their actions. In this world of FFXI, a person can be abused, and have absolutely no form of vindication. To assume for a second that a GM, or SE's abilities of discipline will solve the problems of a society with little to know structure, can keep a large mass of people in check is ridiculous. The game to this date has been riddled with lack of action. Honestly, how many people have left this game because of it? But it's soo much simpler than that.
Good VS Evil.
I clearly admit your intelligence on the subject. If we resorted to the middle ages, life would be hell all over again. Did you know that there was a super-nova during the middle ages, and nobody but the French noticed because we were too busy killing each other? (For those of you that don't know, when a White Giant goes super nova close enough to earth, we experience daylight for more than 24 hours) But this whole conversation isn't about letting law take care of itself.
A person did obvious wrong, and someone clearly innocent suffered. What you are saying is that for the greater good, the obviously innocent should have sucked it up and suffered.
For me to accept life, I cannot stand for that. There's good and bad. If evil is allowed to fester and grow, it will just make more evil. there needs to be consequences for their actions, or evil will just flourish.
So were comparing the justice I gave (Which is less that I would have liked to have done) to the actual world I live in. Were saying that justice needs to be placed in the heads of the just, and not those of the individual. But there's a huge flaw. There's no way that this game provides the same amount of fairness that X# of years has provided our country and Democracy.
Plain and simple, a small but painful injustice was done. Personally, I couldn't sit idly by and let the problem escalate.
I agree with you to the point that I have to question myself. But I firmly believe that there's a good and a bad. It amazes me the things that some people do. I couldn't live with myself and sleep at night knowing I caused someone pain they didn't deserve. This whole conversation makes me think about my ideals of wrong and right, but in real life I've done really well. In this scenario, I didn't do much but it was the correct thing to do. Or to say it differently, I can sleep well at night.
It's just a game, and opinons are like a$$ holes. everyone has one, and they stink.
I have to resort to my believe in religion. I'm a struggling Christian/atheist. Part of me believes that someone like Ghandi did nothing but good. But from a Christian's point of view, he'll go to hell for not believing in Jesus. I think more bluntly. There are two extremes, good and evil. Also, I'm aware my idea of what's good and evil are different from everyone else. Sometimes that difference is very very slight, or incredibly drastic. To be honest with myself, I have to have strong ideals of what's wrong and right, and never stray or else admit that my ideals were wrong and reconsider everything that's happened in my life to date.
I really like your 2nd paragraph. The flaw is, if you knew I'd hit you back, you wouldn't hit me in the first place. In FFXI, there's no threat of pain for doing the wrong thing. A person's persona can flourish in such a world where there's no consequences to their actions. In this world of FFXI, a person can be abused, and have absolutely no form of vindication. To assume for a second that a GM, or SE's abilities of discipline will solve the problems of a society with little to know structure, can keep a large mass of people in check is ridiculous. The game to this date has been riddled with lack of action. Honestly, how many people have left this game because of it? But it's soo much simpler than that.
Good VS Evil.
I clearly admit your intelligence on the subject. If we resorted to the middle ages, life would be hell all over again. Did you know that there was a super-nova during the middle ages, and nobody but the French noticed because we were too busy killing each other? (For those of you that don't know, when a White Giant goes super nova close enough to earth, we experience daylight for more than 24 hours) But this whole conversation isn't about letting law take care of itself.
A person did obvious wrong, and someone clearly innocent suffered. What you are saying is that for the greater good, the obviously innocent should have sucked it up and suffered.
For me to accept life, I cannot stand for that. There's good and bad. If evil is allowed to fester and grow, it will just make more evil. there needs to be consequences for their actions, or evil will just flourish.
So were comparing the justice I gave (Which is less that I would have liked to have done) to the actual world I live in. Were saying that justice needs to be placed in the heads of the just, and not those of the individual. But there's a huge flaw. There's no way that this game provides the same amount of fairness that X# of years has provided our country and Democracy.
Plain and simple, a small but painful injustice was done. Personally, I couldn't sit idly by and let the problem escalate.
I agree with you to the point that I have to question myself. But I firmly believe that there's a good and a bad. It amazes me the things that some people do. I couldn't live with myself and sleep at night knowing I caused someone pain they didn't deserve. This whole conversation makes me think about my ideals of wrong and right, but in real life I've done really well. In this scenario, I didn't do much but it was the correct thing to do. Or to say it differently, I can sleep well at night.
It's just a game, and opinons are like a$$ holes. everyone has one, and they stink.
Scholar
26 posts
This is the part so many people miss during a debate, the base line conflict in the discussion.
I completely disagree on the fact that good and bad do exist as absolutes, rather everything is a vague moral blur in between. In practically any situation, something horrendous can be construed as a greater good (thereby following the rationale of utilitarianism). Utilitarianism is basically that every action should result in the greatest good to the greatest number of people. For instance, killing 1000 people in a war in order to save 1,000,000 people. However, how can this be the case if murder is always wrong? If you think killing 1000 people is less wrong, what do you do in a situation where you either have to kill a baby to save a mother's life, or kill the mother to save a baby's life? (a very blurry moral area).
My main objection to your behavior is not whether or not you did something bad or good, but that you want to somehow hold others accountable for your own individual moral beliefs. In an online world, there is absolutely no law whatsoever, there is only diplomacy (usually formed between groups rather than between individual players). Rarely does diplomacy occur between individual players because individuals have more leeway to act on their selfish impulses rather than work towards what is best for the greatest good or the group.
I am by no means religous in my beliefs, so I hope you are not offended by this statement, but even though it is an online world, shouldn't it be up to God to deal justice out to those who commit sins? "Treat others the way you want to be treated" - Golden Rule.
- I am only utilizing this argument in order to get you to admit to a logical fallacy by the way, so be careful ;)
Because if you do not believe that to be true, then aren't you defining your own sense of what is good and wrong?; therefore there cannot be absolute good or absolute evil because everyone's opinion simply differs on the matter.
Edited, Apr 18th 2007 12:42am by Hephaestus
I completely disagree on the fact that good and bad do exist as absolutes, rather everything is a vague moral blur in between. In practically any situation, something horrendous can be construed as a greater good (thereby following the rationale of utilitarianism). Utilitarianism is basically that every action should result in the greatest good to the greatest number of people. For instance, killing 1000 people in a war in order to save 1,000,000 people. However, how can this be the case if murder is always wrong? If you think killing 1000 people is less wrong, what do you do in a situation where you either have to kill a baby to save a mother's life, or kill the mother to save a baby's life? (a very blurry moral area).
My main objection to your behavior is not whether or not you did something bad or good, but that you want to somehow hold others accountable for your own individual moral beliefs. In an online world, there is absolutely no law whatsoever, there is only diplomacy (usually formed between groups rather than between individual players). Rarely does diplomacy occur between individual players because individuals have more leeway to act on their selfish impulses rather than work towards what is best for the greatest good or the group.
I am by no means religous in my beliefs, so I hope you are not offended by this statement, but even though it is an online world, shouldn't it be up to God to deal justice out to those who commit sins? "Treat others the way you want to be treated" - Golden Rule.
- I am only utilizing this argument in order to get you to admit to a logical fallacy by the way, so be careful ;)
Because if you do not believe that to be true, then aren't you defining your own sense of what is good and wrong?; therefore there cannot be absolute good or absolute evil because everyone's opinion simply differs on the matter.
Edited, Apr 18th 2007 12:42am by Hephaestus
But there are no laws in-game that govern minor altercations. Who is there to stand up for what is correct? I think I know what someone is going to respond with. Who decides what is right? Well I'm talking strictly on an individual basis. If we lived in a world where law enforcement only happened for major crimes...what would happen with the minor one's if no one was there to regulate it? I'm not saying one person takes ultimate law into their hands..but on an individual basis..if someone wrongs you, you fix it. I don't think Singular was wrong in what he did. He was defending his own rights. I don't view him as the bully. I view him as Hammurabi. Eye for an eye basically.
Ghandi wrote:
An Eye for and eye will make the world blind
and also
Wham! wrote:
Wham! Bam! I am a man, job or no job you can't tell me that im not
Edited, Apr 18th 2007 9:28am by Sicklove
When I'm good they never remember,
When I'm bad they never forget
When I'm bad they never forget
Showing up first may get you a better seat at a concert, but I don't think it will get you the entire concert hall. One person should not expect to control an entire area when others want to be there. Get a bigger group or find a smaller area (one that fits 1 person maybe?). . . Or send in a bigger person to destroy everything in sight!
1 post
Well first of all let me say I am extremely flattered to have received all of this attention, when it was all due to someone else's complete disrespect and unfair treatment in this "community".
I rarely come to these forums so I probably won't be back to see what type of ridiculous responses people can come up with, but I wanted to state my side so that there is no confusion.
Modaavi and I have duo'd on BLU since level 1. We don't level very often and for the previous 2 nights prior to this incident we were in Movapolos killing a bst pet with a pup and another blu as competition. Unfortunately at certain levels, soloing off of bst pets (which is the easiest way to do it), can be very difficult do to few camps and high demand. So when we got to this camp and realized we had competition(which is how I look at it, when you are in a "normal" party and go to a crowded area like for example the dunes, people don't whine and cry about who was in the camp first, no, they get their best puller or 2 or 3 people even, to outpull the other party's)so we reset our spells and got right up close to the mob in order to outpull from the other players. We got about 1/3 pulls and had some deaths because of it, but not once did I call any of my high level friends to come and kill the mob all together, not once did we even harrass these players.
So getting to the day with Myst. I had logged on at the camp in bibiki bay where I had logged out the night before, I buffed up and noticed that a blm was there, Myst. I logged off as I wasn't quite ready to xp yet, when I logged back on about 45 min later there was another even higher level blm there, Asby or something, and that blm was pulling the pets, I did not see Myst at this time. So we started outpulling this other blm and he ended up dying obviously with no thought to have reraise up, and home points. At this point I look around and I see that Myst has appeared. She doesn't say anything to us, and we are not about to ask a 64 blm to team up with us when we were only lvl 58 and are perfectly capable of killing the mob on our own. We continue to xp and we outpull Myst and she logs off. A little while later she logs back on and Singular shows up and just starts killing the goblin beastmaster so that none of us can get xp. At this point I think this is the most immature move I have ever seen. I couldn't believe that rather than even try and outpull us with a different spell that may not be ideal, but would still work, like blind or paralyze. Modaavi and I really didn't have anything to do and were not about to let someone like this bully us. So we just let them waste their time while I cleaned up the house and put my two young children to bed. This went on for about an hour until Singular said he had to go to an event and made some lame comment. Myst logged out. What really put me off about this is the immaturity of Myst first of all. Rather than try and talk to us, or try and outpull us, she cries to her high level friend and has him come and fight for her. It's irritating to see these people try and make up for their shortcomings in their real life by stroking their epenis on these forums and in this game.
For the record I am not a vendictive person and I have never had any problems like this before. I would have not had any problem working out some agreement with Myst had they acted like a decent respectful player.
I rarely come to these forums so I probably won't be back to see what type of ridiculous responses people can come up with, but I wanted to state my side so that there is no confusion.
Modaavi and I have duo'd on BLU since level 1. We don't level very often and for the previous 2 nights prior to this incident we were in Movapolos killing a bst pet with a pup and another blu as competition. Unfortunately at certain levels, soloing off of bst pets (which is the easiest way to do it), can be very difficult do to few camps and high demand. So when we got to this camp and realized we had competition(which is how I look at it, when you are in a "normal" party and go to a crowded area like for example the dunes, people don't whine and cry about who was in the camp first, no, they get their best puller or 2 or 3 people even, to outpull the other party's)so we reset our spells and got right up close to the mob in order to outpull from the other players. We got about 1/3 pulls and had some deaths because of it, but not once did I call any of my high level friends to come and kill the mob all together, not once did we even harrass these players.
So getting to the day with Myst. I had logged on at the camp in bibiki bay where I had logged out the night before, I buffed up and noticed that a blm was there, Myst. I logged off as I wasn't quite ready to xp yet, when I logged back on about 45 min later there was another even higher level blm there, Asby or something, and that blm was pulling the pets, I did not see Myst at this time. So we started outpulling this other blm and he ended up dying obviously with no thought to have reraise up, and home points. At this point I look around and I see that Myst has appeared. She doesn't say anything to us, and we are not about to ask a 64 blm to team up with us when we were only lvl 58 and are perfectly capable of killing the mob on our own. We continue to xp and we outpull Myst and she logs off. A little while later she logs back on and Singular shows up and just starts killing the goblin beastmaster so that none of us can get xp. At this point I think this is the most immature move I have ever seen. I couldn't believe that rather than even try and outpull us with a different spell that may not be ideal, but would still work, like blind or paralyze. Modaavi and I really didn't have anything to do and were not about to let someone like this bully us. So we just let them waste their time while I cleaned up the house and put my two young children to bed. This went on for about an hour until Singular said he had to go to an event and made some lame comment. Myst logged out. What really put me off about this is the immaturity of Myst first of all. Rather than try and talk to us, or try and outpull us, she cries to her high level friend and has him come and fight for her. It's irritating to see these people try and make up for their shortcomings in their real life by stroking their epenis on these forums and in this game.
For the record I am not a vendictive person and I have never had any problems like this before. I would have not had any problem working out some agreement with Myst had they acted like a decent respectful player.
But by your own statement you agree that this was not a normal party and as such "competition" is a totally different thing when soloing or duoing.
:O Just a minor point I have to say.
I was reading and got to Heph's post and he was talking about the first amendment. While you "technically" have freedom of speech, the are quite a few things you cannot do.
Of course death threats and the all mighty shouting "Fire!" in the crowded theater come to mind, but there are also quite a few minor things. I can't come up with exact cases at the moment, but anything regarded as "verbal abuse" is technically illegal. One can be fined, and even have charges pressed against them for it.
Also under these clauses are self defense. If someone is verbally abusing you, you have the right to pop them in the nose. Now that is taking it to a bit of extremes, but as long as you have a witness and a good lawyer I'm sure you could get it to fly in court.
These things kind of go along the lines of Good Samaritan Laws... only the opposite I guess?
Edit to add:
Okay, finished reading the thread... now time for my real reply.
First things first, Ghandi is right. Thank you Sicklove for not making me have to post something similar.
I solo'd from time to time on Dragoon when I played, and I can say with all honesty that people have no respect for anyone who is solo'ing. I'm sure I can bust out a two page essay about asshats camping on top of me while I was trying to solo Puks, but that would end up being my own little rant.
But in my whole hearted opinion... both parties were wrong for various reasons.
Now to Sariahcat,
When a BLM solos, they can't pull with a faster spell. They have to use a strong spell to knock off a good chunk of the mob's HP when pulling, after that they sleep the mob, and cast the strongest spell they have to hopefully finish it off.
To make it simple, when other people are around, a BLM can't solo because of their tactics.
What really put me off about this is the immaturity of Myst first of all. Rather than try and talk to us, or try and outpull us, she cries to her high level friend and has him come and fight for her.
I already explained why she couldn't try to out pull you. But from the looks of it, Myst didn't complain to Sing. It seems she would of been happy to just wait it out, but Sing saw the actions first hand and took it upon himself to fulfill is own sense of justice. Well, that is my understanding of the situation at least...
But to be fair, instead of inciting verbal abuse, you could have talked to Sing in a rational manner and figured out why he was doing that. Afterwards, you could have worked out a deal with Myst. Hence, you have no reason to be so defensive to begin with.
And last, but not least...
How does this topic have anything to do with ego? A comment like that, in my opinion, does nothing but belittle yourself. It makes you seem egotistical and makes me lean towards siding with Sing and Myst, as it shows some of your personality.
This topic was a rant by Sing, and developed into a post about morals and justice. Nothing about "epenises" here... well aside from your over inflated ego.
Edited, Apr 20th 2007 12:50pm by Weakness
I was reading and got to Heph's post and he was talking about the first amendment. While you "technically" have freedom of speech, the are quite a few things you cannot do.
Of course death threats and the all mighty shouting "Fire!" in the crowded theater come to mind, but there are also quite a few minor things. I can't come up with exact cases at the moment, but anything regarded as "verbal abuse" is technically illegal. One can be fined, and even have charges pressed against them for it.
Also under these clauses are self defense. If someone is verbally abusing you, you have the right to pop them in the nose. Now that is taking it to a bit of extremes, but as long as you have a witness and a good lawyer I'm sure you could get it to fly in court.
These things kind of go along the lines of Good Samaritan Laws... only the opposite I guess?
Edit to add:
Okay, finished reading the thread... now time for my real reply.
First things first, Ghandi is right. Thank you Sicklove for not making me have to post something similar.
I solo'd from time to time on Dragoon when I played, and I can say with all honesty that people have no respect for anyone who is solo'ing. I'm sure I can bust out a two page essay about asshats camping on top of me while I was trying to solo Puks, but that would end up being my own little rant.
But in my whole hearted opinion... both parties were wrong for various reasons.
Now to Sariahcat,
Quote:
I couldn't believe that rather than even try and outpull us with a different spell that may not be ideal, but would still work, like blind or paralyze.
When a BLM solos, they can't pull with a faster spell. They have to use a strong spell to knock off a good chunk of the mob's HP when pulling, after that they sleep the mob, and cast the strongest spell they have to hopefully finish it off.
To make it simple, when other people are around, a BLM can't solo because of their tactics.
Quote:
What really put me off about this is the immaturity of Myst first of all. Rather than try and talk to us, or try and outpull us, she cries to her high level friend and has him come and fight for her.
I already explained why she couldn't try to out pull you. But from the looks of it, Myst didn't complain to Sing. It seems she would of been happy to just wait it out, but Sing saw the actions first hand and took it upon himself to fulfill is own sense of justice. Well, that is my understanding of the situation at least...
But to be fair, instead of inciting verbal abuse, you could have talked to Sing in a rational manner and figured out why he was doing that. Afterwards, you could have worked out a deal with Myst. Hence, you have no reason to be so defensive to begin with.
And last, but not least...
Quote:
It's irritating to see these people try and make up for their shortcomings in their real life by stroking their epenis on these forums and in this game.
How does this topic have anything to do with ego? A comment like that, in my opinion, does nothing but belittle yourself. It makes you seem egotistical and makes me lean towards siding with Sing and Myst, as it shows some of your personality.
This topic was a rant by Sing, and developed into a post about morals and justice. Nothing about "epenises" here... well aside from your over inflated ego.
Edited, Apr 20th 2007 12:50pm by Weakness
oh look! name calling and finger pointing. Yeah... that makes you look like the victim here... Get off your damn soap box!
The short point is, from what I can tell, there were faults and disrespect slung from BOTH sides of this situation. There were also no other witnesses, so it's one side's word against the other's. You already know where this is going to go. Everybody is going to line up behind their favorite advocate, and the sparks will fly, and quite frankly, nobody's gonna win, here.
By the way, I don't know how some of you other people value your friendships, but when somebody's giving one of my friends a hard time, you're DAMN RIGHT I'm going to stick up for my friend! So, if it makes me immature for doing so, bring me my diaper!
The short point is, from what I can tell, there were faults and disrespect slung from BOTH sides of this situation. There were also no other witnesses, so it's one side's word against the other's. You already know where this is going to go. Everybody is going to line up behind their favorite advocate, and the sparks will fly, and quite frankly, nobody's gonna win, here.
By the way, I don't know how some of you other people value your friendships, but when somebody's giving one of my friends a hard time, you're DAMN RIGHT I'm going to stick up for my friend! So, if it makes me immature for doing so, bring me my diaper!
Scholar
26 posts
In response to Weakness:
Most states have legal statutes to judge cases of "severe emotional distress." "Extreme and outrageous conduct" is defined as:
- http://www.west.net/~smith/distress.htm
Unlike most other states, you do not need to prove that the "emotional distress" led to a foreseeable physical injury in California. However, most "verbal abuse" unless there are other aspects to the case (special relationship, a child, etc.) then you are pretty much protected under the first amendment.
While this is a minor detour from my original point, Sariah and others' example prove my point further:
Without an appropriate legal system to judge what is right and what is wrong, the community has two options:
1) Live with the "State of Nature" environment where people will do whatever they can to get what they want (regardless of rationalization) OR
2) Attempt to build an acceptable legal system with social rules that are clearly defined and enforced through social ostracization.
People have been ******** and whining on Allakhazam since it's inception, but never have I seen a post trying to accomplish this task. Get people together, start talking, and move towards a solution because what you see above this post and in this entire forum is nothing but children arguing over minor altercations.
Most states have legal statutes to judge cases of "severe emotional distress." "Extreme and outrageous conduct" is defined as:
Quote:
Extreme and outrageous conduct is not mere insults, indignities, threats, annoyances, petty oppressions or other trivialities. All persons must necessarily be expected and required to be hardened to a certain amount of rough language and to occasional acts that are definitely inconsiderate and unkind.
Unlike most other states, you do not need to prove that the "emotional distress" led to a foreseeable physical injury in California. However, most "verbal abuse" unless there are other aspects to the case (special relationship, a child, etc.) then you are pretty much protected under the first amendment.
While this is a minor detour from my original point, Sariah and others' example prove my point further:
Without an appropriate legal system to judge what is right and what is wrong, the community has two options:
1) Live with the "State of Nature" environment where people will do whatever they can to get what they want (regardless of rationalization) OR
2) Attempt to build an acceptable legal system with social rules that are clearly defined and enforced through social ostracization.
People have been ******** and whining on Allakhazam since it's inception, but never have I seen a post trying to accomplish this task. Get people together, start talking, and move towards a solution because what you see above this post and in this entire forum is nothing but children arguing over minor altercations.
:O Well Heph got me. I just remember seeing on the news a week or so ago about how some guy got arrested... I also vaguely remember talking about the first amendment clauses in debate class oh so many years ago in high school.
So next time i have a war burn merit PT in thickets and another PT comes, I should call over my linkshell to kill everything in an alliance so no one else can use the zone? Your logic fails singulaur, being someplace first does not grant you ownership of the zone. Black mage solos slow as hell, if she was being outpulled, she should have found a smaller camp for herself. The whole pulling with tier 3 excuse is bs, fast spells will work fine.
You also mentioned she logged off and returned 45 minutes later, if she did have ownership of that zone (which doesnt exist imo) she would have lost it.
What you did was childish and stupid. The only effect if had was to waste your own time and make you look like a jackass. You may be 27 but you have a lot of growing up to do.
Edited, Apr 20th 2007 2:42pm by CactuarsRevenge
You also mentioned she logged off and returned 45 minutes later, if she did have ownership of that zone (which doesnt exist imo) she would have lost it.
What you did was childish and stupid. The only effect if had was to waste your own time and make you look like a jackass. You may be 27 but you have a lot of growing up to do.
Edited, Apr 20th 2007 2:42pm by CactuarsRevenge
Recent Visitors: 32
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (32)
- Forums
- FFXI Servers
- Bismarck
- I can't stand some people.
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC