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Fix the FFXI Forum Karma problem!Follow
I know I know ... Illia thinks the Karma system is working perfectly as intended...
But it's not. It's a great system, but people are abusing it for their own demented pleasure.
It is impossible to post ANYTHING there without getting a steady flow of ratedowns. There are obviously a few people doing it... I guess it's entertainment for them.
This is ruining the forum in two ways - first, it's inhibiting people from posting their thoughts and second it's causing stupid threads about karma to pop up every day.
"But Jord, no one cares about karma. It's a meaningless number on a web-site."
To each their own, but I assure you that there are PLENTY of people who do care. They contribute to the community, and a decent rating to go with their reputation is befitting.
Mods/admins - Please think about taking action. I know it's been asked of you many times, but the FFXI forum is broken because of these rate-down people, and it really wouldn't take much to ban them and get the system working "as intended" again.
I agree mate, i've coined the phrase 'bad karma disease' as really all a lot of rate downs do is make everyone unhappy. I've suffered this week at the hands of users who beleive it's their right to nuke the karma of new users. What these people really do is discourage others from contributing to certain areas of the site, not really the foundation for a strong community.
'nuff said.
'nuff said.
I'd like to add my voice to this as well.
The FFXI forum karma system is flawed.
You cannot disagree with an OP without being rated down on all of your posts. I've been rated down (quite correctly) for flaming an OP, being rude, not being coherent and generally making an *** out of myself but to be rated down for actually disagreeing with an OP and actually posting (IMHO) differing opinions? That seems to be a perversion of what the rating system is supposed to be.
I don't mind being rated down for being a troll. I mind being almost muzzled by select users and their "goon squads" by being rated down on every post in a thread (even if I AGREE with the OP)
I don't usually rate up or down (except in special cases). I would really appreaciate an admin to pm me with a "STFU Troll" if my rating on posts is justified. Like I said, if I'm being a troll I don't mind being rated as one.
The FFXI forum karma system is flawed.
You cannot disagree with an OP without being rated down on all of your posts. I've been rated down (quite correctly) for flaming an OP, being rude, not being coherent and generally making an *** out of myself but to be rated down for actually disagreeing with an OP and actually posting (IMHO) differing opinions? That seems to be a perversion of what the rating system is supposed to be.
I don't mind being rated down for being a troll. I mind being almost muzzled by select users and their "goon squads" by being rated down on every post in a thread (even if I AGREE with the OP)
I don't usually rate up or down (except in special cases). I would really appreaciate an admin to pm me with a "STFU Troll" if my rating on posts is justified. Like I said, if I'm being a troll I don't mind being rated as one.
His Excellency Jordster wrote:
"But Jord, no one cares about karma. It's a meaningless number on a web-site."
To each their own, but I assure you that there are PLENTY of people who do care. They contribute to the community, and a decent rating to go with their reputation is befitting.
The part I emphasized is the part you should pay attention to. It is only a number, and if you feel that some stupid number is so important for your ability to enjoy your postings here, I would suggest finding a different message board.
The rating system is in place to give the community the power to police themselves. A few ratedowns in a single thread is not going to bring you down. It is also not something we are going to turn our attention to.
Remember, just as there are blocks of 'awful' ratings on threads, there are also blocks of 'excellent' ratings. If people want to rate every post in a thread, that is their prerogative.
Only in extreme circumstances will we step in (i.e. a poster being camped across several threads; someone karma bombing entire threads, etc.).
blowfin, you are not being camped.
Diveos, you are not being camped.
Jordster, you have so many posts it would take an army of dedicated users to bring you down.
Remember, just as there are blocks of 'awful' ratings on threads, there are also blocks of 'excellent' ratings. If people want to rate every post in a thread, that is their prerogative.
Only in extreme circumstances will we step in (i.e. a poster being camped across several threads; someone karma bombing entire threads, etc.).
blowfin, you are not being camped.
Diveos, you are not being camped.
Jordster, you have so many posts it would take an army of dedicated users to bring you down.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com
It's not as if it hasn't been said before, but it's the people who are the prblem, not the system.
Give average citizens guns to allow them to do their own part in "enforcing the law and keeping the peace" and you'll still have tons of people shooting each other, as well as themselves.
What surprises me is that you've been here long enough to get a postcount over 3000, and you're ony just noticing this problem.
The people abusing the rating system for their own warped pleasure are all ***[/i]holes.
I am an ***[/i]hole. I'm just nicer and more responsible than many of them.
The system works, it's the people who are broken.
Banning them won't stop that.
Give average citizens guns to allow them to do their own part in "enforcing the law and keeping the peace" and you'll still have tons of people shooting each other, as well as themselves.
What surprises me is that you've been here long enough to get a postcount over 3000, and you're ony just noticing this problem.
The people abusing the rating system for their own warped pleasure are all ***[/i]holes.
I am an ***[/i]hole. I'm just nicer and more responsible than many of them.
The system works, it's the people who are broken.
Banning them won't stop that.
Quote:
Only in extreme circumstances will we step in (i.e. a poster being camped across several threads; someone karma bombing entire threads, etc.).
blowfin, you are not being camped.
blowfin, you are not being camped.
Actually this is exactly what has happened in this thread. This post was made around about the same time i got bagged by the WHM posse and funnily enough i've got exactly the same rating on this post as i received in the other thread. Go figure...reeks of camping IMO.
Edited, Mon May 23 02:46:22 2005 by blowfin
blowfin wrote:
Quote:
Only in extreme circumstances will we step in (i.e. a poster being camped across several threads; someone karma bombing entire threads, etc.).
blowfin, you are not being camped.
blowfin, you are not being camped.
Actually this is exactly what has happened in this thread. This post was made around about the same time i got bagged by the WHM posse and funnily enough i've got exactly the same rating on this post as i received in the other thread. Go figure...reeks of camping IMO.
And you were expecting Rateups for pissing people off?
No not at all. Where'd you get that idea from?
What I don't expect is to get trolled for a response and then rated down when I defend myself. I know better now.
What I don't expect is to get trolled for a response and then rated down when I defend myself. I know better now.
blowfin wrote:
lol u freakin tard
This little line of yours would probably be the reason for the ratedowns in one thread. The only place you are being hit badly is in this thread.
blowfin wrote:
Actually this is exactly what has happened in this thread
The person who rated you down in that thread has never rated you before.
blowfin, you are not being camped.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com
OK thanks for the info
It's all pretty funny in hindsight ; )
It's all pretty funny in hindsight ; )
Listen to the admins for they are the all knowing gods of the forums.
Ok, actualy they can see who rated what and such.
Anyways, on a side note. I think the system is good, its the people who abuse it that it make it seem that way. Personally my biggest problem with the system is people are just afraid to rate posts UP more then they are down. I'd say about 90% (i'd say the other 10% are split between asking questions and just chatting) of my posts are helpfull and answer any question the OP has. Sometimes the OP can rate posts, sometimes not. Sometimes someone else posts who can, sometimes not. However, dispite being helpfull as much as I can, I see tons of posts go w/o ratings.
I thought the karma system was supposed to be in place to reward those who help people and punish those who are idiots/falmers.
I realize with my high post count my karma is mostly unmovable, however it can still move a little... Also since its an average of my posts, the more I post w/o ratings the lower it will fall eventually.
Thats really my biggest (and only besides socks) problem with the karma system.
Edited, Mon May 23 08:25:56 2005 by Tomec
Ok, actualy they can see who rated what and such.
Anyways, on a side note. I think the system is good, its the people who abuse it that it make it seem that way. Personally my biggest problem with the system is people are just afraid to rate posts UP more then they are down. I'd say about 90% (i'd say the other 10% are split between asking questions and just chatting) of my posts are helpfull and answer any question the OP has. Sometimes the OP can rate posts, sometimes not. Sometimes someone else posts who can, sometimes not. However, dispite being helpfull as much as I can, I see tons of posts go w/o ratings.
I thought the karma system was supposed to be in place to reward those who help people and punish those who are idiots/falmers.
I realize with my high post count my karma is mostly unmovable, however it can still move a little... Also since its an average of my posts, the more I post w/o ratings the lower it will fall eventually.
Thats really my biggest (and only besides socks) problem with the karma system.
Edited, Mon May 23 08:25:56 2005 by Tomec
The Karma system is slightly flawed technically, because when you rate someone the first option is "Awful" and the last option is "Excellent". If this was changed to a button scale (have 5 option buttons horizontally) then it would be better IMO.
The solution to this in the company I work at is a survey link given in every automated e-mail from a closed ticket. You'd be surprised, but the average score of our analysts is 4.5, whereas I'd guess the average Karma score for every user is less than 3.
Another problem with the Karma system is the "Edit Post" feature. I could theoretically create an awesome guide and receive 100 Excellent ratings (which are worth 6 instead of 5), and then out of the blue edit my post so it is completely blank, and no one who rated the guide Excellent can rate again. An admin could probably nuke the rating, but perhaps a better solution would be to allow re-ratings (which would also fix rating mistakes).
In the end, Karma is like religion: some people believe in it, some people ignore it, and some even die for it. Every religion has it's strengths and weaknesses, but as long as many people believe in it, it will survive.
Quote:
You may be different, but most people are extremely likely to complain, and extremely unlikely to contact the good-service-giving-person's boss.
The solution to this in the company I work at is a survey link given in every automated e-mail from a closed ticket. You'd be surprised, but the average score of our analysts is 4.5, whereas I'd guess the average Karma score for every user is less than 3.
Another problem with the Karma system is the "Edit Post" feature. I could theoretically create an awesome guide and receive 100 Excellent ratings (which are worth 6 instead of 5), and then out of the blue edit my post so it is completely blank, and no one who rated the guide Excellent can rate again. An admin could probably nuke the rating, but perhaps a better solution would be to allow re-ratings (which would also fix rating mistakes).
In the end, Karma is like religion: some people believe in it, some people ignore it, and some even die for it. Every religion has it's strengths and weaknesses, but as long as many people believe in it, it will survive.
I think it's sort of silly to say, "the system is fine, humans are broken". You're not talking about something that was designed to work with automated, unfeeling, perfect machines, and was only later modified to accept human input. It's a system designed for humans, it should take into account any "flaws" in human nature.
Quote:
The system works perfectly in the world where people take the time to rate things up.
That's very true. It seems that the system is designed with the assumption that (to a degree) every post will be rated. Unfortunately, only exceptional posts (such as extensive guides) are rated up, and other posts are rated down for a whole host of reasons. I've started trying to rate people up just for answering the question in the OP with useful information, because it seems like that's the sort of thing the system should reward.
Since we're in a world where people don't bother to rate things up, maybe the system could be modified to encourage them to. What if there were a button next to each post to rate it up without having to scroll to the bottom and do them all as a batch? It's not really simplifying the process much, but cognitively, it seems much more natural/easy to read a post, think "that was pretty good", click the button and continue on, without having to think about "well, was it 'good' good or 'excellent' good?" Maybe the button would start by giving "good" ratings, and when enough people had clicked it, it would start giving "excellent" ratings.
Anyway, that was just something off the top of my head, and I didn't think it out too much. Probably other modifications that other people have mentioned would be useful - stuff like requiring one rate-up for every certain number of rate-downs, etc.
He's right, people are the problem. The thing with the FFXI board is there are plenty of immature posters, who will rate down for little to no reason. Rating should be done based on things like, helpfulness, quality of post, humor. Rateups should be given for helpful information, knowledge about the game, making people laugh. ratedowns should be given for offensive, inappropriate material, off topic replies, and general flaming/trolling. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen well. Sometimes a certain poster will get under anothers skin. When that happens they will usually search for a certain posters posts, and begin rating them down en masse.
People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome. ~River Tam
Sedao
Sedao
They've already addressed the imbalance of awfuls versus excellents. An excellent counts towards your rating more than an awful counts against it. And ultimately, the admins of this site are NOT moderators. If you guys are having a problem in the FFXI forum, start doing something about it. If you see a thread where everyone (or just one person) has been unfairly rated down in your opinion, instead of coming here to complain just rate them back up. If enough people do this, you won't have the problems you're apparently having.
Kastigir the Wise wrote:
Rating should be done based on things like, helpfulness, quality of post, humor. Rateups should be given for helpful information, knowledge about the game, making people laugh. ratedowns should be given for offensive, inappropriate material, off topic replies, and general flaming/trolling.
Agree 100% there, and thats what I try to do. I will admit sometimes I slip though and forget. I just wish more people would....
I want an army of ratedown bots.
Bring it on
Bring it on
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