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Bored Druid Thread: The Next GenerationFollow

#2852 Dec 13 2013 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
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Friar RareBeast wrote:
Starbucks have now closed 3/4 of their stores in Australia as most cities in Australia already have numerous cafes selling quality coffee all over the place. So many people I talk to who visit the US have trouble finding decent coffee anywhere. Starbucks is so ubiquitous there that it forces most decent coffee places to struggle. Over here we already had lots of quality places so Starbucks just got no traction.



Actually, that's completely wrong. Starbucks was the company that actually triggered the artisinal coffee movement in the US, which triggered similar movements abroad. "Decent" coffee didn't exist in the US before Starbucks created a market for it.

And it didn't exist abroad either.

Until the 1960s, essentially all coffee served in the world was from high-yield, easy-to-care-for trees that grew at medium altitudes. By today's standards you cannot make "good" coffee out of this. The cheapest off-brand can of grounds you get from a supermarket is realistically of a higher quality today than the best cup was sixty years ago.

That's the environment that let Starbucks actually excel. The coffee was so ****** and so lacking in flavor that they roasted the living hell out of it and started getting the area hooked on their (burned) dark roast flavor, because it was so much richer than just brewing it at a light or medium roast. They quickly expanded.

What happened is that people started to actually began seeing coffee as a beverage that had potential, and the price of "better" beans started soaring (and selling in the first place). These beans were from a coffee tree that was notoriously hard to care for, with a pathetic yield and tempermental nature, which mean that it was nearly nonexistent on coffee farms around the world. Combine that with the bad yield, and it was already a luxury good. The demand ensured the market could not grow.

It was in this period that the first artisinal tree was "re-discovered." We had never lost it, of course. But coffee farms of the time weren't at the same altitudes they are today, because the trees at the time couldn't grow there. That was the altitude they planted this tree at, and it's why it yield and product sucked. But move it up to its appropriate altitude, and it flourishes - solid yields and great body.

But no one had ever bothered to try before, because there was literally no market for artisinal coffee. At all. It wasn't a thing that existed.

This all went down in the south american market. It took a while for those trees to be appropriately bred and sold to European farming territories. And even today, the best coffee in the world isn't really provided by the areas that the European market typically accesses, because they just aren't climatically up to the task like areas of South America are. The best coffee houses in Europe are getting their coffee from the places that were founded by support from the American market.

I also want to make a big note here - much of the coffee you find in Europe is still grown with the crappy beans that cover most of the orchards that support the EU demand. The absolute reality of this situation is that Europeans are no different from the Starbucks-crazed Americans. You've been trained over time to love a flavor that isn't actually as deep or complex as a good cup of coffee. For the US and the French, that's a dark roast. Italian roast is a darker roast using a slightly different bean (but still one of the old versions).

And this was literally all caused by the fact that Starbucks created a market for coffee, which created a demand allowing farmers to experiment with their products (because sacrificing land to try growing coffee trees on a whim isn't something you were going to do when a market doesn't exist at all).

So hate their coffee or love it, they're absolutely NOT the reason other coffee houses can't compete. They're the reason those coffee houses have the chance to compete in the first place.

The reality, however, is that the number of people willing to pay $5 for a cup of quality coffee (like me) is relatively low, here. Most people are happy to settle for the average.

The difference in quality between Starbucks' blonde roast and their dark roast is pretty big. But most people get the medium or dark roast, because that's what they think tastes good. The blonde roast is actually the much more flavorful roast/bean (as in, the best of the crop go to the blonde roast, and the flavor isn't burned out), but it's not what we're culturally trained to like.

And to be clear - I'm not saying you have to like Starbucks coffee. It's far from being the best on the market. But they didn't come in and force out the small businesses. They created a market and have continued to dominate a market they created. Small businesses manage to be successful on their superior product wherever people are willing to pay for it. And if you're in a decently urban area and delivering a fresh product (particularly when you roast it yourself and it's fresh), you generally get to be fairly successful.

But if you're going to open a cafe and serve Green Mountain Coffee, then it's no surprise you're struggling.

But other businesses in other countries were able to capitalize on the new artisinal beans long before Starbucks had a chance to expand into their markets, and essentially created their own artisan market using the new product. But that product only exists because Starbucks created a market for it in the Americas.

Source: a book I'm trying to remember the name of right now. It was EXTREMELY well-researched, and if you're at all interested in the cultural history of some major modern culinary commodities, well-worth a read. My sister will remember - I'll post it when she texts me back.

I imagine Aeth would really like it.
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#2853 Dec 13 2013 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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I don't actually care about coffee much. I just prefer it to be good if I'm paying a lot for it and Starbucks cappuccino tastes like instant coffee. Smiley: lol
#2854 Dec 13 2013 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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The problem with Starbucks isn't the coffee, but all the stuff they put in it.
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#2855 Dec 13 2013 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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No, it's the coffee as well.
#2856 Dec 13 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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For a multinational franchise it really isn't that bad. I mean if we're comparing them with real coffee houses and medium/high-end restaurant then yeah, but Dunkin' Donuts or McDonald's and such?
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#2857 Dec 13 2013 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
For a multinational franchise it really isn't that bad. I mean if we're comparing them with real coffee houses and medium/high-end restaurant then yeah, but Dunkin' Donuts or McDonald's and such?


Pretty much this.

I can easily get a better cup of coffee than Starbucks. I can't get a better cup of coffee at the same price point as Starbucks.
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#2858 Dec 13 2013 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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I got a better cup of coffee for less money on the main tourist street in Barcelona.


Much smaller cup, but much better too.
#2859 Dec 13 2013 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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I think it's pretty obvious that portion matters. Smiley: dubious
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#2860 Dec 13 2013 at 9:37 AM Rating: Good
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Not a whole lot to me. I'd rather have the regular cup of good cappuccino than the large serving of crap.
#2861 Dec 13 2013 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
For a multinational franchise it really isn't that bad. I mean if we're comparing them with real coffee houses and medium/high-end restaurant then yeah, but Dunkin' Donuts or McDonald's and such?


Pretty much this.

I can easily get a better cup of coffee than Starbucks. I can't get a better cup of coffee at the same price point as Starbucks.
You need to visit us up here more often, especially Seattle. I can think of a whole heap of places that sell better coffee than Starbucks at the same prices. Starbucks is basically McDonalds, especially now that McDonalds serves the mixed coffee mocha double shot whatever stuff too.
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#2862 Dec 13 2013 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Calling Starbucks crap is just... gross exaggeration.

I mean, for one, dark roasted coffee has a much narrower field of quality than lighter roasts do. In the grand scheme of things, Starbucks is about average. They don't get TOO much worse, and they don't get TOO much better. Because charring the hell out of the bean means that it just isn't going to make a huge difference. You take the best bean, and you take the worst bean, and you roast them black, and there will be a difference in quality, but it'll be vastly reduced.

Plus, the point remains that you aren't talking about a cheaper coffee. That small cup of coffee that cost you less than a large Starbucks coffee isn't going to save you money once you equalize the sizes. And people on a budget generally see Starbucks as a more extravagant option for coffee, considering they can get "acceptable" coffee for elsewhere.

If you're fine with one small cup, then pair the price to one small cup at Starbucks. $1 difference is still over $300 a year. And the price is only going to compound the more you have per day.

Coffee's definitely something where you generally get what you pay for over here, assuming you live somewhere urban.

[EDIT]

I think it's worth pointing out that Starbucks hasn't really built their brand on having the best coffee around. They built it on the ability to customize your drink (essentially doing whatever you want with the ingredients they have). Right now they're looking to do the same with Tea, and just purchased Teavana to help make it happen.

And yes, when I'm in NYC, I can get a better cup of coffee for the same price. When I'm home, I can pay the same amount and get a worse cup of coffee.

The point being, this is about as good as it gets for a franchised shop.

Edited, Dec 13th 2013 11:30am by idiggory
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#2863 Dec 13 2013 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
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Oh how I love the internet. Order today before 23:00, delivered tomorrow (except on Sundays) with free shipping.

Edit: the smallest cup Starbucks sold was the Tall which is what I compared it to. The cup I had in the tourist street in Barcelona was about half the size and cost 40 cents less so ounce for ounce it's more expensive but the tall is still a pretty dam big cup of coffee.

Edited, Dec 13th 2013 5:35pm by Aethien
#2864 Dec 13 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Oh how I love the internet. Order today before 23:00, delivered tomorrow (except on Sundays) with free shipping.


The one nice thing about living in NJ is that Amazon Warehouses and a state that's 80% highway generally mean anything gets here the day after it ships. Not as good as next-day-delivery in NYC, but still pretty nice.
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IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

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#2865 Dec 13 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
The point being, this is about as good as it gets for a franchised shop.
You poor unfortunate soul. Smiley: frown

Yes, way too much Disney... Smiley: lol
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#2866 Dec 13 2013 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Soooooooo...


In about 3 weeks I'm going to be painting a bunch of walls and a ceiling. Something I have never done before and worst of all it's going to be for the new place I'm renting because the twatface who rented it before me painted it in ghastly dark colours.
#2867 Dec 13 2013 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
Digg is pretty much spot on when it comes to Starbucks. When I started working there they taught us the history of the company. Basically, back in the 70s they just sold coffee beans. Then the CEO went to a kitchen utility expo in Italy, and he had a cappuccino at a small Italian coffee house. He really enjoyed the drink and the ambiance of the shop and thought about how we had nothing like that here in the states. That was when he decided to expand Starbucks to the coffee house. We didn't have any coffee houses or drive thru coffee places until Starbucks expanded.
#2868 Dec 13 2013 at 2:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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I took a marketing course that used starbucks as a case study. Interesting.

I get starbucks usually about once a week. Medium roast.
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#2869 Dec 13 2013 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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Seriously, I'm bored with beans now and you guys totally miss out on the perfect opportunity to change topic. Smiley: glare
#2870 Dec 13 2013 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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lol, okay. If anyone is interested in that book (I think it has chapters on salt, olive oil, etc.) it's American Terroir by Rowan Jacobsen.


And Aeth, is it not the job of your landlord to paint?
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IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

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#2871 Dec 13 2013 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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The paint is technically good, it's just hideous. The place is also really cheap and getting demolished in 4 years or so so the landlord is hesitant to do any sort of work that isn't strictly necessary. I'll take having to replace the carpet in one room and having to do a bunch of painting and cleaning plus the awkward arrangement of the rooms and the slightly smaller space (but bigger kitchen!) for the ~$525 a month it saves me.
#2872 Dec 14 2013 at 1:44 AM Rating: Good
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And in five years you can set the place on fire.
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#2873 Dec 14 2013 at 3:05 AM Rating: Good
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my place is also cheap cause of old-ness.

old carpets everywhere that im ok with. the small bedroom i sublet was painted by the girl that lives in it and a different roommate did the living room a few years back as he didnt like the graffiti that had accumulated when we was smoking salvia. we drilled a bolt through one of the cabinets to make it not be falling down a year or tow ago.

my rent is insanely cheap though so i dont complain. i pay 1250 for a big 2 bed, which is cheap for oahu. most 2 beds are over 1500 on the island, never mind near where i live, in kailua where they are closer to 2k a month.
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#2874 Dec 14 2013 at 6:16 AM Rating: Good
Speaking of McDonalds, I got a rejection letter from Oxford yesterday and was then, appropriately, treated to McDonalds. I was feeling too numb to decide on a restaurant and then ended up there. Seriously, so appropriate.

Now I need to work on new contingency plans. Oxford was the "it's a decent backup plan" thing. I have others, but not really worked on them yet.

It's a good wake-up call about wanting to go to Cambridge and the possibility of rejection there. It's far tougher than Oxford, but like... I feel like I prepared for that thesis all my life. Apart from the 5 years I was useless, anyway.
#2875 Dec 14 2013 at 6:32 AM Rating: Good
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McDonalds being appropriate in a HAHA start learning how to ask "would you like fries with that?" way? Cause that's kind of mean, insofar as McDonalds isn't already adding insult to injury. Smiley: tongue
#2876 Dec 14 2013 at 6:54 AM Rating: Good
No, because it's like the opposite of Oxford: totally not classy.

Oxford is all about independent coffee shops, riverboats and intellectual debate... or something.

Although you do have a point.
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