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Let me help you there Rod, here is your working Armory Link for everyone else's reference.

How much dps are you typically doing? It may be that you are anxious to be the best in group, when really you should be glad that you are doing well for your current gear level and class. Heroics are hard (especially pugging them). It's meant to be that way. Don't expect to faceroll them. The question is whether you can improve your dps. Some of our shadow peeps may have good suggestions for you.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 1:10pm by dadanox

This only relates to trash - and as a Tank and Healer I assure you trash IS important in Heroics as there are many trash pulls that greatly exceed the DPS output of bosses. In many situations, I suggest spreading your DOTs out. This will give you something to burn mana on and should greatly increase your DPS.

If you're smart about which targets you DoT and when, you can greatly increase your damage without pulling threat. DoT up the primary target first, then follow up with the next target that seems to have taken damage from the tank. Follow this until you've dotted everything. Remember, if a target is out a few meters and the tank is unable to hit it (happens a lot with Hunters in HoO/Lost City for instance) then leave that target alone because the tank will have a hard time keeping threat. Also remember that DoTing messes with CC bad - so you'll have to be careful. Once everything is DoTed up, if you still have DoTs on the first target then start hitting it with Mindflay.

If you DO pull threat, you should already have relatively low Mana so it may be a good time to disperse. Other options include Psychic Scream - if you're glyphed - or Fade! Compared to most DPS classes you have a multitude of options in handling that situation and the beautiful thing is that no matter which you choose you'll still be doing quite nasty damage.

This should greatly increase your playspeed/APMs and should result in a more fun style of play with more damage done on trash. It will also show you what it's like to run LoM (remember that after trash you should have decent time to drink up, this has been a defining factor I've seen in good SPriests in that they dont end EVERY fight Full Mana - Mana conservation is for long fights.)

Mind Flay is a filler spell - its what you do when you have nothing else to do and its a nice way to get orbs, but much like an Affliction Warlock, big DPS comes from lots of DoTs.

Also, when a target's getting low it's a good idea to hit them with Mindspike -> Mind Blast -> SW:D -> SW:D. That is a VERY nasty combo =)

Hey guys,

Yep its mainly the trash pulls where I'am losing dps, on the boss fights I seem to make up lost time and my damage is good compared to everyone else so the longer the fight the better I go.

Its the short sharp fights for trash where I'am failing, mana isnt a problem as I seem to have that under control and my threat is good too.

It just seems by the time I focus around on next target which is usually already been burned down a bit by the time I DoT it up or cast something its practically already gone.
The melee classes now just seem to have so much grunt.

My expectations dont supersede my ability but I just found it hard to see why I top damage in Normals in both trash and boss fights and now seem to struggle in Heroics.
I know thier harder but thier harder for everyone else as well so to a point we're all in the same boat there.

I have MC'd in a Heroic but we didnt finish the instance as there was a server restart so I dont know what the end result would have been so that may be an option.

Also I'am pretty much keeping in mind what Tzsjynx said when I play, maybe I should spread my DoT's out more than clump them together but from what I've read thats the way to do it.

AoE would be great if we had some, Holy Nova is about all I use in Normals on Trogs and its useless compared to what everyone else has.

I guess its just a case of more practice and not getting kicked for low dps in pugs.

Thanks guys for your time and help.

Early engagement is key on trash - you should be casting VE before the tank even officially has agro (if he doesn't pull when you expected then move to stop, recast, over and over until he pulls). This strategy is key for most DPS (early wind-up is a huge help). Also, you shouldn't "spread them out instead" - stack your 3 DOTs and then stack them all on the next target - your DOTs have the ability to crit for insane damage. This should take no more than 4 seconds per target - and your DOT's aren't all that long term anyways (they did this on purpose a while ago so that you don't lose mana efficiency.) I'm trying to think of targets that take less than 15 seconds to kill and not much is coming to mind, unless you're running with like 2 DKs doing 15kdps each. Depending on the kill speed it will probably not be in your best interest to reapply your DOTs - finish up extra targets with nukes.

If things are STILL dying too fast, then there are other options you can do:

DoT-spreading only PW:P - this will continue to give you Shadowy Apparitions but will cut your cast time per target down to 1 second. The DPS lost this way must be made up through nuking/mind flay.

Picking an off-target - grabbing non-primary target will insure you more time to do your damage. The huge problem here is that you're not really assisting the group in taking out a piece of DPS, you're not hitting the target which the tank is focusing threat on, and by all accounts you are not following directions. Expect to get smack talked if you cause the tank troubles.

Lastly, Mind controlling can be awesome.

...and you can do it after you've already DoTed to damage your controlled monster while you use it to damage other monsters. Not only is it a nice form of CC on certain fights, but it can boost your DPS out the wazoo - just make sure your tank is good otherwise he'll have one hell of a time grabbing threat back from you. I figured MC was already in your repertoire - but remember this is more of a gimmick than a solid strategy, make sure you're not pissing anyone off unnecessarily when you use it (for instance if your group is killing very fast anyways, then skip this strategy).

Thanks guys, awesome help.

The problem I've had with MC so far is some knob in the group always hits my target, doesnt matter if its marked for MC or not, it breaks, I crap myself, hit Fade and run to the tank.
It seems to work that way but geez you would think a marked target shouldnt be hit until its turn in the kill order.

The main issue I have is I know someone has to be fourth in damage so no problem there, its the amount between me and the third person that has me gobsmacked.
On average I'am at least one million behind the third person in damage, thats a lot.
We just have no burst damage or good AoE.
But this is 100% my main issue.

I dont use Mind Spike because it clears my DoTs but on a low health target at 30% that might be the way to go with SWD and a quick Mind Flay.
Mind Blast takes to long to cast and I'am missing out on dps.
Or have I got that wrong, even with a cast time will Mind Blast do more damage than a steady hit of Mind Flay?

For targeting I have my frames setup to target the tanks target, this sometimes kills me time wise if the tank is slow to pick his next target.
If his slow I'am slow.
I've tried picking a different target at times but then the aggro kicks in and sometimes its not a good result.
I cant really see away around this, I can DoT up other targets and then go back to the main target but thats cost me time and I dont know if the damage from DoT's on other targets would equal a steady amount of dps just on one target.

I do cop a lot of groups with DK's and Pally's and I just cant match them and to be honest I shouldnt be able to either.
But I should be able to stand toe to toe with a Mage or a Lock and right now I cant.

I'll try some of the advice out that you guys mentioned and see if theres an improvement.
Like Dadanox said I think I do have enough of the right stuff to do good damage, I just think maybe its not being utilised to its best potential.

Thank you again everyone for the time and help.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 11:18am by RodStorm

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 11:21am by RodStorm

Thanks for the reply mate, hmmmm I'am not sure why my MC is breaking then.
I assumed someone hit my target and that was the cause.
I'am hit capped so thats not the issue, I'll have to look a bit harder next time to see what the cause is/may have been.
Possibly range, possibly getting hit to much by my target...I dont know.

I have a timer setup in Satrina Buff Frames for MC so I can keep track of where things are up to.

The Lost City is where I get sent to mainly for Heroics and I've never been asked to MC there so I'll have to try it out a bit more in Normals so I know I have it down pat.

I went to the EJ site and omg once you get through all the math it sort of makes a little sense.
Keeping Empowered Shadow up seems to be the general consensus to help maximise dps so thats something I'am going to have to work on.
Its not something I've been readily aware off.

And I'll now include Mindspike for targets under 30% with MB and SWD, see how that goes.

Thanks again.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 1:08pm by RodStorm

I'll just add a note here since this is the apparent 'spriest thread'.

Most interesting thing in the 4.0.6 patch notes for me was the change to Mind Sear so that it can be channeled on friendly targets.

That and the way they keep gradually bumping up mastery. I wonder if it's now gone from slightly less valuable than crit to slightly more valuable.

Not to slight you in the least, but EJ tends to be more about the last 4-5% of the DPS you can eek out and tends to ignore that some people are working on getting up from 40-60% of their max DPS to 80-90%.

Empowered Shadow IS important to keep up, but it comes down to trade-offs of delaying putting up DoTs and ******** with your rotations to insure you always have it up. I keep an eye on it, but I don't obsess over it to the level that some people indicate. I know there is still more I can do with it, but I try and do my theroycrafting myself, not because I believe I am better than the people at EJ, but because when I theorycraft it myself, I understand it better and have an easier time implementing it without missing other important things.

This, and again, no offense intended, is not where you are at. Once you are comfortable with your DPS, keeping your DoT uptime high, and have your cool-downs worked well into your rotation, THEN is the time to worry about 100% Empowered Shadow uptime. For now, I would suggest not worrying out max uptime (you'll still have good uptime with a normal rotation), and get the normal rotation down.

As for Haste, I haven't worked on that yet.


P.S. Mind Sear on Friendly targets?! Tanks, I chose you!

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 10:30am by BakaShinobi

ES is important to keep up since it's a bunch of additional damage for dots. If you have an orb, run MB and it's good for another cycle. Refresh your dots when you would anyway and you'll probably be OK. You might be able to squeeze out a bit more damage refreshing dots early after the buff is up but VT doesn't run that long to start with and DP may or may not have that long to run either. And all of that has to be balanced against mana usage and whatnot. At least DP is an instant and won't cost you a couple of GCD's to refresh should you decide to do so.

Managing all of this while changing targets, staying out of bad stuff, moving and whatnot is what makes the class a challenge to play.

What he was likely doing was using Mind Spike on low-health mobs.

Mind Spike is useful in that it's an easy way to dps down a trash mob or an add when your DoTs don't have time to do their damage. Your DoTs + Mind Flay will always do more dps than Mind Spike if they have time to tick their full duration. The rule of thumb I use is this: If I'm going to have to refresh my DoTs before the mob dies, use DoTs. If the mob dies before my DoTs have a chance to fall off, use Mind Spike.