I rated you back up earlier because you're wrong but smart enough to discuss stuff with so no point rating down.
That said, your first post is spreading bad information and I can understand ratedowns for that.
I'll compare the video's spec with the Cookie Cutter spec
The first thing where he goes wrong is Point of No Escape: Bosses are not affected by frost or freezing trap so those talent points only work on adds.
Lowering the chance to resist on your traps is more effective for adds (as, as far as I know, traps still use spell hit) and the shorter cooldown on disengage is good because it's the single best ability we have for raids, nothing like moving twice as fast and efficient because you're disengaging to where you need to be.
Next he talks about how he would want 2 points in serpent spread for "real dps", I'd say just read what it does and think about it for 10 seconds and you'll figure out why 2 points in there makes no sense. All the second point adds is one more tick of serpent sting, the damage you get in AoE situations from serpent sting is very little, almost all of it is multishot itself and improved serpent sting. And if that isn't enough you'll either shoot a new multishot within 6 seconds or the mobs are dead.
The next thing he does is going into BM, he picks up 3 points in One With Nature for 30% more attack power from AotH, 30% sounds like a lot but in reality it's only (638*0.3=) 191.4 AP, assuming that 1 AP = 0.7 dps this means that you're getting (191.4*0.7=) 133.98 or 134 dps from 3 talent points or 44.66 dps per point, that's very little when you're doing 14-15k dps.
Then he spends 2 points on an ability he admits he will never use while right next to that is Bestial Discipline which increases the amount of special attacks your pet can do and thus increases your pet's dps. To be honest these two points should have been a really big DO NOT LISTEN TO ME sign.
After that he spends points in Frenzy and Frenzy is good, however he has completely overlooked the 4 points you can spend to increase the number of special attacks your pet does in Marksman.
He does talk about Careful Aim after that, but he is making no sense, wanting it tested (It's just math... and simple math at that) and somehow thinking that you'd completely ignore all other shots when above 80% of mob hp.
Below is the math for Careful Aim:
Assumed:
5 minute fight, 1 minute spent at 80% health or higher.
Cobra shot hits for 5k, crits for 10k.
Hunter has enough haste to get 1.66 second cast time of cobra shot.
In 1 minute, you shoot 14 explosive shots (4 from Lock and Load), 3 black arrows (this assumes that you are using the PvP gloves as you should), 1 serpent sting, 1 hunter's mark which takes 19 seconds.
41 seconds of cobra shots left you wll fire 41 / 1.66 = 24.69... cobra shots.
Out of those 247 cobra shots an additional 60% will crit which means 24 * 0.6 = 14.4 extra crits, each crit adds 5k damage for a total of 14.4 * 5 = 72k additional damage.
72k over 5 minutes is 72000 / 300 = 240 dps or in other words 1 point in Careful Aim gives 75.3 more dps than 1 point in One With Nature and that's assuming you're wearing blues and are not raidbuffed.
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and the only reason I made that post was because 5 minutes previous I had said how it was sad that people had to resort TO rating down when diageeing with a stance. And yet I was rated down FOR that.
My karma is untouchable with even a few measly rate downs and I could REALLY care less about it. Rate as you please. I just found it absolutely astounding that here in a thread where people brought alternative information to help an OP out with their questions, were attacked not only verbally but through rate downs for not agreeing with the presumable ringleader of the hunter forums. I totally give Aethien his due that he does know a lot about the Hunter and I admire that he knows his stuff. You have to be aware of the current changes going on in order to have a chance at playing the Hunter class well. That said, having other opinions does not make one ignorant on the Hunter itself. Ive gamed for years and the Hunter has changed drastically since patch 4.0 so there is a lot to learn all over again and things continually change. To create a personae that everyone else is stupid for having another opinion does nothing but damage the already fragile Hunter community.
The funny thing, is that you guys are harping on **** that the OP didnt even ask about. I offered one flipping video that I used to get some ideas that were helpful and this went into a flame war of preposterous proportions that had nothing to do with the damn OP's query. Seriously? 99.5% of the stuff discussed here we are actually in full agreement, but its the minor **** that seems to have all of you up in a dander and hard pressed to make me look idiotic when in fact, youre harping on seriously minor detail stuff that deals with RAIDING or heroic grouping when the OP asked about SOLOING.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45/Meiune/DPS1.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45/Meiune/DPS2.jpg
Average numbers above. Nothing special. Not the best, but no one can say they are the worst either, with how quickly things change lately for the Hunter as we all scramble to keep up to date.
You guys enjoy your forum and tearing each other down or circle jerking one another instead of taking the time to truly understand and grasp what people are actually aking as they SEEK help in what is supposed to be a forum they can do that. I'm an old timer here on Allahs, but if I were a new member to this place you could bet your *** I wouldnt be here for long.
Enjoy the echos of your own self congratulations, boys. Its truly a hopping place to be king.
My karma is untouchable with even a few measly rate downs and I could REALLY care less about it. Rate as you please. I just found it absolutely astounding that here in a thread where people brought alternative information to help an OP out with their questions, were attacked not only verbally but through rate downs for not agreeing with the presumable ringleader of the hunter forums. I totally give Aethien his due that he does know a lot about the Hunter and I admire that he knows his stuff. You have to be aware of the current changes going on in order to have a chance at playing the Hunter class well. That said, having other opinions does not make one ignorant on the Hunter itself. Ive gamed for years and the Hunter has changed drastically since patch 4.0 so there is a lot to learn all over again and things continually change. To create a personae that everyone else is stupid for having another opinion does nothing but damage the already fragile Hunter community.
The funny thing, is that you guys are harping on **** that the OP didnt even ask about. I offered one flipping video that I used to get some ideas that were helpful and this went into a flame war of preposterous proportions that had nothing to do with the damn OP's query. Seriously? 99.5% of the stuff discussed here we are actually in full agreement, but its the minor **** that seems to have all of you up in a dander and hard pressed to make me look idiotic when in fact, youre harping on seriously minor detail stuff that deals with RAIDING or heroic grouping when the OP asked about SOLOING.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45/Meiune/DPS1.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45/Meiune/DPS2.jpg
Average numbers above. Nothing special. Not the best, but no one can say they are the worst either, with how quickly things change lately for the Hunter as we all scramble to keep up to date.
You guys enjoy your forum and tearing each other down or circle jerking one another instead of taking the time to truly understand and grasp what people are actually aking as they SEEK help in what is supposed to be a forum they can do that. I'm an old timer here on Allahs, but if I were a new member to this place you could bet your *** I wouldnt be here for long.
Enjoy the echos of your own self congratulations, boys. Its truly a hopping place to be king.
Finally a post I can work with!!!
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I
I'll compare the video's spec with the Cookie Cutter spec
The first thing where he goes wrong is Point of No Escape: Bosses are not affected by frost or freezing trap so those talent points only work on adds.
Lowering the chance to resist on your traps is more effective for adds (as, as far as I know, traps still use spell hit) and the shorter cooldown on disengage is good because it's the single best ability we have for raids, nothing like moving twice as fast and efficient because you're disengaging to where you need to be.
Next he talks about how he would want 2 points in serpent spread for "real dps", I'd say just read what it does and think about it for 10 seconds and you'll figure out why 2 points in there makes no sense. All the second point adds is one more tick of serpent sting, the damage you get in AoE situations from serpent sting is very little, almost all of it is multishot itself and improved serpent sting. And if that isn't enough you'll either shoot a new multishot within 6 seconds or the mobs are dead.
The next thing he does is going into BM, he picks up 3 points in One With Nature for 30% more attack power from AotH, 30% sounds like a lot but in reality it's only (638*0.3=) 191.4 AP, assuming that 1 AP = 0.7 dps this means that you're getting (191.4*0.7=) 133.98 or 134 dps from 3 talent points or 44.66 dps per point, that's very little when you're doing 14-15k dps.
Then he spends 2 points on an ability he admits he will never use while right next to that is Bestial Discipline which increases the amount of special attacks your pet can do and thus increases your pet's dps. To be honest these two points should have been a really big DO NOT LISTEN TO ME sign.
After that he spends points in Frenzy and Frenzy is good, however he has completely overlooked the 4 points you can spend to increase the number of special attacks your pet does in Marksman.
He does talk about Careful Aim after that, but he is making no sense, wanting it tested (It's just math... and simple math at that) and somehow thinking that you'd completely ignore all other shots when above 80% of mob hp.
Below is the math for Careful Aim:
Assumed:
5 minute fight, 1 minute spent at 80% health or higher.
Cobra shot hits for 5k, crits for 10k.
Hunter has enough haste to get 1.66 second cast time of cobra shot.
In 1 minute, you shoot 14 explosive shots (4 from Lock and Load), 3 black arrows (this assumes that you are using the PvP gloves as you should), 1 serpent sting, 1 hunter's mark which takes 19 seconds.
41 seconds of cobra shots left you wll fire 41 / 1.66 = 24.69... cobra shots.
Out of those 247 cobra shots an additional 60% will crit which means 24 * 0.6 = 14.4 extra crits, each crit adds 5k damage for a total of 14.4 * 5 = 72k additional damage.
72k over 5 minutes is 72000 / 300 = 240 dps or in other words 1 point in Careful Aim gives 75.3 more dps than 1 point in One With Nature and that's assuming you're wearing blues and are not raidbuffed.
I'll compare the video's spec with the Cookie Cutter spec
The first thing where he goes wrong is Point of No Escape: Bosses are not affected by frost or freezing trap so those talent points only work on adds.
Lowering the chance to resist on your traps is more effective for adds (as, as far as I know, traps still use spell hit) and the shorter cooldown on disengage is good because it's the single best ability we have for raids, nothing like moving twice as fast and efficient because you're disengaging to where you need to be.
Next he talks about how he would want 2 points in serpent spread for "real dps", I'd say just read what it does and think about it for 10 seconds and you'll figure out why 2 points in there makes no sense. All the second point adds is one more tick of serpent sting, the damage you get in AoE situations from serpent sting is very little, almost all of it is multishot itself and improved serpent sting. And if that isn't enough you'll either shoot a new multishot within 6 seconds or the mobs are dead.
The next thing he does is going into BM, he picks up 3 points in One With Nature for 30% more attack power from AotH, 30% sounds like a lot but in reality it's only (638*0.3=) 191.4 AP, assuming that 1 AP = 0.7 dps this means that you're getting (191.4*0.7=) 133.98 or 134 dps from 3 talent points or 44.66 dps per point, that's very little when you're doing 14-15k dps.
Then he spends 2 points on an ability he admits he will never use while right next to that is Bestial Discipline which increases the amount of special attacks your pet can do and thus increases your pet's dps. To be honest these two points should have been a really big DO NOT LISTEN TO ME sign.
After that he spends points in Frenzy and Frenzy is good, however he has completely overlooked the 4 points you can spend to increase the number of special attacks your pet does in Marksman.
He does talk about Careful Aim after that, but he is making no sense, wanting it tested (It's just math... and simple math at that) and somehow thinking that you'd completely ignore all other shots when above 80% of mob hp.
Below is the math for Careful Aim:
Assumed:
5 minute fight, 1 minute spent at 80% health or higher.
Cobra shot hits for 5k, crits for 10k.
Hunter has enough haste to get 1.66 second cast time of cobra shot.
In 1 minute, you shoot 14 explosive shots (4 from Lock and Load), 3 black arrows (this assumes that you are using the PvP gloves as you should), 1 serpent sting, 1 hunter's mark which takes 19 seconds.
41 seconds of cobra shots left you wll fire 41 / 1.66 = 24.69... cobra shots.
Out of those 247 cobra shots an additional 60% will crit which means 24 * 0.6 = 14.4 extra crits, each crit adds 5k damage for a total of 14.4 * 5 = 72k additional damage.
72k over 5 minutes is 72000 / 300 = 240 dps or in other words 1 point in Careful Aim gives 75.3 more dps than 1 point in One With Nature and that's assuming you're wearing blues and are not raidbuffed.
OK so here are questions. IF you do TL & L&L for any reason, and adds are a good reason to proc that, why would you waste points in Disengage? AS OF YET I have not had any need for disengage that often that I worry about its cool down. Even being the focus for Pillar in Magmar, my disengage was completely up and ready to move when needed. To me, thise are a waste of talent points I could better use for maximizing more DPS, even if it is not consistent. Its still more DPS than a cooldown, KWIM?
I agree with you on the 2 points in SS. Its unnecessary.
A Lot of the cookie cutter talents focus a lot on your pets focus regen. I've never noticed an issue with my pets focus regen. I can understand putting talent points in for that but I notice on CC you have 3 points to specifically regen your pets focus. That just seems excessive to me and a loss where you can use that point to up somewhere else. Are pets REALLY losing out on DPS that much that they need so much help in focus?
One thing I forgot to mention is his rotation: For one he uses Explosive > Cobra > Explosive > Cobra > Explosive during Lock and Load, the problem here is that the second cobra is most likely 1: not adding any more focus because you're capped and 2: delaying your next explosive shot by 0.5 seconds. The better thing to do is ExS > CS > ExS > Arcane Shot > ExS.
After the next Loc and Load he wants to dump focus, what he does is just fire off a couple of Arcane Shots, the problem there is that he is not thinking about his next Explosive Shot at all, he's just randomly firing off arcanes and then ******* about Explosive Shot's cooldown. ExS cooldown is always 6 seconds, the first is used up by the Global Cooldown from explosive shot itself and then you have 5 more seconds.
5 seconds fits in exactly 3 Cobra Shots if you are at the first haste softcap (757 haste to get to 1.66 sec CS) and when firing off 3 arcane shots you are using up 3 out of the 5 seconds, he then shoots 2 cobra shots which results in delaying his next Explosive shot by almost 1.5 seconds. What he should have done is fire 2 arcane shots and 2 cobra shots and only delay his next Explosive shot by less than 0.5 seconds, he wold have been high on focus but not delaying Explosive Shots is much more valuable for dps. And a few seconds later he's out of focus and needs to shoot both Black Arrow and Explosive which results in delaying explosive by yet another few seconds. (Nice comment on how hard it is to have enough focus for that follows, you can see that coming for 20 seconds if you're not prepared you just failed) by this time he has delayed his Explosive so much that he has essentially lost one or more explosive shots.
So to say how it should be done:
Explosive > 3x Cobra Shot > Explosive is what you stick to for dps, it's really just that simple.
When Black Arrow gets off cooldown you can go Explosive > Black arrow+Arcane+2 Cobra Shots > Explosive, the order of the shots in the middle aren't very important, depends on when BA is off cooldown.
If BA and ExS are off cooldown at the exact same time I personally always delay BA even if it's a slight dps loss because it's just easier to maintain the ExS > 3(4) shots > ExS without having to pay attention to it as that prevents any chance of OhcrapwhatamIsupposedtodonow!? situations and allows you to focus for the full 100% on the actual fight.
When Lock and Load procs you shoot Explosive shot > Cobra > Explosive Shot > Arcane Shot > Explosive Shot. If Black Arrow comes off cooldown during Lock and Load you replace either Cobra or Arcane with BA, if you replace Cobra with BA and are then under 64 focus replace Arcane by Cobra so you are sure that you shoot your Explosive Shots as fast as possible.
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 9:23pm by Aethien
After the next Loc and Load he wants to dump focus, what he does is just fire off a couple of Arcane Shots, the problem there is that he is not thinking about his next Explosive Shot at all, he's just randomly firing off arcanes and then ******* about Explosive Shot's cooldown. ExS cooldown is always 6 seconds, the first is used up by the Global Cooldown from explosive shot itself and then you have 5 more seconds.
5 seconds fits in exactly 3 Cobra Shots if you are at the first haste softcap (757 haste to get to 1.66 sec CS) and when firing off 3 arcane shots you are using up 3 out of the 5 seconds, he then shoots 2 cobra shots which results in delaying his next Explosive shot by almost 1.5 seconds. What he should have done is fire 2 arcane shots and 2 cobra shots and only delay his next Explosive shot by less than 0.5 seconds, he wold have been high on focus but not delaying Explosive Shots is much more valuable for dps. And a few seconds later he's out of focus and needs to shoot both Black Arrow and Explosive which results in delaying explosive by yet another few seconds. (Nice comment on how hard it is to have enough focus for that follows, you can see that coming for 20 seconds if you're not prepared you just failed) by this time he has delayed his Explosive so much that he has essentially lost one or more explosive shots.
So to say how it should be done:
Explosive > 3x Cobra Shot > Explosive is what you stick to for dps, it's really just that simple.
When Black Arrow gets off cooldown you can go Explosive > Black arrow+Arcane+2 Cobra Shots > Explosive, the order of the shots in the middle aren't very important, depends on when BA is off cooldown.
If BA and ExS are off cooldown at the exact same time I personally always delay BA even if it's a slight dps loss because it's just easier to maintain the ExS > 3(4) shots > ExS without having to pay attention to it as that prevents any chance of OhcrapwhatamIsupposedtodonow!? situations and allows you to focus for the full 100% on the actual fight.
When Lock and Load procs you shoot Explosive shot > Cobra > Explosive Shot > Arcane Shot > Explosive Shot. If Black Arrow comes off cooldown during Lock and Load you replace either Cobra or Arcane with BA, if you replace Cobra with BA and are then under 64 focus replace Arcane by Cobra so you are sure that you shoot your Explosive Shots as fast as possible.
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 9:23pm by Aethien
Quote:
Explosive > 3x Cobra Shot > Explosive is what you stick to for dps, it's really just that simple.
When Black Arrow gets off cooldown you can go Explosive > Black arrow+Arcane+2 Cobra Shots > Explosive, the order of the shots in the middle aren't very important, depends on when BA is off cooldown.
If BA and ExS are off cooldown at the exact same time I personally always delay BA even if it's a slight dps loss because it's just easier to maintain the ExS > 3(4) shots > ExS without having to pay attention to it as that prevents any chance of OhcrapwhatamIsupposedtodonow!? situations and allows you to focus for the full 100% on the actual fight.
When Lock and Load procs you shoot Explosive shot > Cobra > Explosive Shot > Arcane Shot > Explosive Shot. If Black Arrow comes off cooldown during Lock and Load you replace either Cobra or Arcane with BA, if you replace Cobra with BA and are then under 64 focus replace Arcane by Cobra so you are sure that you shoot your Explosive Shots as fast as possible.
When Black Arrow gets off cooldown you can go Explosive > Black arrow+Arcane+2 Cobra Shots > Explosive, the order of the shots in the middle aren't very important, depends on when BA is off cooldown.
If BA and ExS are off cooldown at the exact same time I personally always delay BA even if it's a slight dps loss because it's just easier to maintain the ExS > 3(4) shots > ExS without having to pay attention to it as that prevents any chance of OhcrapwhatamIsupposedtodonow!? situations and allows you to focus for the full 100% on the actual fight.
When Lock and Load procs you shoot Explosive shot > Cobra > Explosive Shot > Arcane Shot > Explosive Shot. If Black Arrow comes off cooldown during Lock and Load you replace either Cobra or Arcane with BA, if you replace Cobra with BA and are then under 64 focus replace Arcane by Cobra so you are sure that you shoot your Explosive Shots as fast as possible.
Ive got this rotation down. Its not the rotation we are disagreeing on
ETS also:
Quote:
The next thing he does is going into BM, he picks up 3 points in One With Nature for 30% more attack power from AotH, 30% sounds like a lot but in reality it's only (638*0.3=) 191.4 AP, assuming that 1 AP = 0.7 dps this means that you're getting (191.4*0.7=) 133.98 or 134 dps from 3 talent points or 44.66 dps per point, that's very little when you're doing 14-15k dps.
Im in game right now and AoH is base 829 AP. 30% of 829 is 248.7 248.7*.7=174.09. And while 58.03 DPS per point doesnt sound like much, when stacked together and used in every single fight you do, Im still going to say OwN is worth it. Id rather use that than focus 3 points for pet regen.
Editing one more time as Im going through this in game:
I notice in CC you have 2 points in Survival tactics, which is disengage, but also reduces trap spell resistance by 4%. However, if your HR is capped at 8% this should be a non issue, and a waste of points that could be better used in other areas to help consistent DPS. IF your HR is not capped though it would be good to use until you get there.
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:46pm by DSD
Lady DSD wrote:
OK so here are questions. IF you do TL & L&L for any reason, and adds are a good reason to proc that, why would you waste points in Disengage? AS OF YET I have not had any need for disengage that often that I worry about its cool down. Even being the focus for Pillar in Magmar, my disengage was completely up and ready to move when needed. To me, thise are a waste of talent points I could better use for maximizing more DPS, even if it is not consistent. Its still more DPS than a cooldown, KWIM?
And you're using Black Arrow to proc Lock and Load, with BA having a 20 sec cooldown because of the PvP gloves and LnL having a 22 second cooldown it'll go off almost every single time anyway.
As for Disengage, it's probably not used that much yet early on in raids and in heroics but the more complicated fights (and hardmodes) will become the more you'll have to move and the more important it becomes to take as little damage as possible.
And the single most important factor in dps is in how good you are at not moving for longer than you need to. I cannot stress this point enough, the largest difference between an average joe and a top end raider is that the top end raider moves his toon more efficient and less often, resulting in more straight up dps time and less time spent running from point A to point B or less time spent in that big pool of poison that the boss just dropped under your feet.
I've spent a good amount of time raiding under a raid leader who was truly skilled at the game, I made it a game within a game to try and predict where he was going to move when avoiding AoE. He didn't just avoid the AoE, he avoided it with as little movement as needed, without losing dps time and at the same time making sure he wouldn't have to move any more for the next AoE.
He made optimal use of his knowledge of fights to maximize dps uptime
Quote:
A Lot of the cookie cutter talents focus a lot on your pets focus regen. I've never noticed an issue with my pets focus regen. I can understand putting talent points in for that but I notice on CC you have 3 points to specifically regen your pets focus. That just seems excessive to me and a loss where you can use that point to up somewhere else. Are pets REALLY losing out on DPS that much that they need so much help in focus?
Long answer, the pet focus regen talents aren't spectacular, they're just better than the alternatives because the alternatives are worthless. (See One With Nature math)
Lady DSD wrote:
Im in game right now and AoH is base 829 AP. 30% of 829 is 248.7 248.7*.7=174.09. And while 58.03 DPS per point doesnt sound like much, when stacked together and used in every single fight you do, Im still going to say OwN is worth it. Id rather use that than focus 3 points for pet regen.
Quote:
I notice in CC you have 2 points in Survival tactics, which is disengage, but also reduces trap spell resistance by 4%. However, if your HR is capped at 8% this should be a non issue, and a waste of points that could be better used in other areas to help consistent DPS. IF your HR is not capped though it would be good to use until you get there.
Edit: I can't find any data on a possible change for this and it also explains why frost/freezing trap for LnL doesn't always work, it's simply resisted by the boss.
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 10:04pm by Aethien
Quote:
Traps still use spell hit as far as I know, which is 16 or 17% to hit a boss level mob.
Lady DSD wrote:
That said, having other opinions does not make one ignorant on the Hunter itself.
This is true, but using opinions to fuel a derail of a thread with a "no you're wrong even though you have math and EJ to back you up and I just have mediocre DPS numbers" isn't a way to prove your theory about DPS.
Had you come into the thread and pointed to math that's been done rather than a bad video by a random guy on YouTube, you would have had a much different reception.
I really don't mind your attitude; it's nice to see someone ruffle Aethien's feathers and get him to post. It's the data that you're posting that is the problem.
Lady DSD wrote:
If this was the case you would think your Spell HC would increase when you add these into the talent mix. However I just tried it with no change to that aspect. Take it for what thats worth /shrug
Edit: and since when do I need extra motivation to post?
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 10:20pm by Aethien
Quote:
This is true, but using opinions to fuel a derail of a thread with a "no you're wrong even though you have math and EJ to back you up and I just have mediocre DPS numbers" isn't a way to prove your theory about DPS.
No one used opinions to fuel a derail on purpose. And to imply I came in with a hidden agenda is ridiculous.
Im willing to learn (if you cared to take the time to read the past few posts) and Im not one who will refuse to admit when wrong. My biggest enjoyment of this game is actually being useful and able to pull out numbers for my guild. At the same time I refuse to have it implied a differing opinion is ludicrous and ignorant. Its not, and that is my point. Now catch up, we're discussing alternate options and why we go with what we chose
edit stupid spellcheck
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 4:25pm by DSD
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Lady DSD wrote:
If this was the case you would think your Spell HC would increase when you add these into the talent mix. However I just tried it with no change to that aspect. Take it for what thats worth /shrug
Edit: and since when do I need extra motivation to post?
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 10:20pm by Aethien
I didnt look in my spell book I looked under my stats. I also see no where where you can see the positive change if it only does your trap. If thats the case 2 points in for 1 spell vs using those points somewhere else seems a waste to me.
Yeah, stats, not spellbook. My bad.
Either way since it only applies to traps and there isn't any place where your chance to hit with traps is shown it won't show up anywhere.
Also, I wrote this earlier:
When you need to trap add you need to make sure they will be trapped and if you don't need to trap them you're better off just DPSing instead of trapping because the shots you fire in the time it takes to use trap launcher+frost trap is worth more than the 6% crit you get from Point of no Escape.
Still, the most important reason you spec into Survival Tactics is because there simply isn't an alternative. There's no other place to put those points that gives you more utility than SI.
The only possible alternatives are 1: Hunter vs Wild which would give you 7% hp, you could change to this for a stand and shoot fight with unavoidable damage but there aren't many of those 2: Entrapment which roots targets affected by your snake and frost trap, could be useful when kiting mobs but when kiting mobs a shorter cooldown on Disengage is even better and making sure mobs are affected by your traps is as important as the immobilize 3: Point of No Escape which gives you 6% crit vs mobs in your frost trap which could be used when dpsing multiple mobs that need to be slowed and killed before they reach a certain point. Again, pretty damn limited use.
A reduced cooldown on Disengage however is useful on any heavy movement fight which there are a lot more of (definitely when you get to the harder, more complicated fights), plus disengaging where common classes need to walk is just freakin awesome.
Edit: To adress your previous post, dps has very little to do with opinions, dps is all about math and science.
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 11:05pm by Aethien
Either way since it only applies to traps and there isn't any place where your chance to hit with traps is shown it won't show up anywhere.
Also, I wrote this earlier:
When you need to trap add you need to make sure they will be trapped and if you don't need to trap them you're better off just DPSing instead of trapping because the shots you fire in the time it takes to use trap launcher+frost trap is worth more than the 6% crit you get from Point of no Escape.
Still, the most important reason you spec into Survival Tactics is because there simply isn't an alternative. There's no other place to put those points that gives you more utility than SI.
The only possible alternatives are 1: Hunter vs Wild which would give you 7% hp, you could change to this for a stand and shoot fight with unavoidable damage but there aren't many of those 2: Entrapment which roots targets affected by your snake and frost trap, could be useful when kiting mobs but when kiting mobs a shorter cooldown on Disengage is even better and making sure mobs are affected by your traps is as important as the immobilize 3: Point of No Escape which gives you 6% crit vs mobs in your frost trap which could be used when dpsing multiple mobs that need to be slowed and killed before they reach a certain point. Again, pretty damn limited use.
A reduced cooldown on Disengage however is useful on any heavy movement fight which there are a lot more of (definitely when you get to the harder, more complicated fights), plus disengaging where common classes need to walk is just freakin awesome.
Edit: To adress your previous post, dps has very little to do with opinions, dps is all about math and science.
Edited, Jan 11th 2011 11:05pm by Aethien
Lady DSD wrote:
I just found it absolutely astounding that here in a thread where people brought alternative information to help an OP out with their questions, were attacked not only verbally but through rate downs for not agreeing with the presumable ringleader of the hunter forums.
Well, to quote your original post.
DSD wrote:
To OP, if you are essentially soloing and not worrying about raiding, go with what works for you. All specs are good for that. If you are looking to raid, as it stands right now, SV is the highest in DPS. I did a lot of research in all specs and played with rotations and Im consistently hitting 10-12k on average in raids, after following this video guide:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dRdphLmTFc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dRdphLmTFc
Bold = answering OP
Rest = not answering OP
So don't really say you were attacked after simply trying to help the op, because there were previous comments saying the exact same thing you said with regards the the op's question.
As for the video you posted, we have pretty high standards in the hunter forums. We want to make sure that information being posted is accurate. If it's not it's going to be called out and scrutinized. One of the biggest things that makes it not very good is that it was made/posted in October, back in beta, there have been a lot of changes to the class since then. So possibly back then his spec could have been more accurate to the best dps. His shot rotation is more accurate to back then when Arcane shot was pretty strong, seeing as he used nothing but arcane during LnL. There were many other things too I'm just too lazy to point them out.
To defend Aeth, he is pretty damn knowledgeable when it comes to hunter information. He takes the time to do the math, work with the spreadsheet figuring out numbers. He also tells it like it is. That's just Aeth's nature, one thing people have to learn when first coming to the hunter forums, as I'm sure is the same with most of the class forums.
I know I'm a little late but I was too lazy to get on the comp when I first saw some of these posts because I was laying down to take a nap.
TL:DR We want the most accurate information to provide users and when something is used that isn't very accurate it will be scrutinized.
Hyolith is such a loyal minion 
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Hyolith is such a loyal minion
I've paid my dues when it comes to posting on hunter forums. I believe I have earned my place here.
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Hyolith is such a loyal minion
And yet, he keeps trying to bring the thread down when I thought we had moved on. Must feel good to have your sycophants nod like $2 bobbleheads at everything you copy and paste to create the image of knowledge earned
I notice lots of happy trigger fingers on those red arrows to anyone who seems to diasagree or question your stances. It seems despite trying to get a good convo going here to learn, it's a lose/lose situation. You lose by not having your ideals examined in order for you to maybe better learn your own class, the rest of us lose by being hindered when trying to create an actual discussion in the hopes of learning. I had hopes after starting up a decent discussion yesterday afternoon but it seems my initial impression was correct. Good to know so that I dont waste time here anymore with you fanbois who can't hold a conversation without tantruming. That sucks. And on that note, I took a lot of time yesterday to respec to CC and try it out. Dummy gives you decent numbers in a steady, stable environment. Out in the real game where it's chaotic and well... a challenge, it's good, but not the best I hear everyone screaming about here as they refuse to even contemplate minor alternatives. And mid heroic instance I teleported back, respecced to what Im comfortable with, and the numbers jumped up significantly and consistently again.
Moral of the story here: math on paper may give you the perfect ideals when learning how to maximize your class to its fullest but the chaos that is in actually playing the game does not always bear the same results. You (general you) play what feels comfortable for you, and sometimes minor altering to the core ideal works for some. Going a different route than others is not bad nor does it show ineptitude in their class knowledge.
I took the time yesterday and spent hundreds of gold really trying to learn more with the information given here to see if I could find the optimal route both on a dummy AND in the areas I would use it. I didnt just post on a forum bantering back and forth throwing math out from a simulation found on other boards where others did the work. I took it and did the field work on my own. If anything, that should highlight that I take my role in my guild seriously, to be the best I can for them, as I have for over 7 years in multiple games, playing multiple classes depending on what was needed. I learned a lot. I learned that I was netting better damage with my way and I was a better player for it. Comfortability factor? Maybe. But I also got L&L to proc a hell of a lot more using TL (YES even on bosses ZOMG) which upped my DPS quite nicely
I hope in time you guys realize that while your numbers on paper may be more sound mathmatically in a stable envrionment such as a dummy, that this is also a game (Definition: activity engaged in for diversion or amusement) and as such,actively belittling others for offering different ideas, and using the Karma button instead of actually using your mental muscle to get your point across is pretty pathetic. Frankly it says a lot about a person who cannot type succinctly get their point across. Im all about banter and I thoroughly enjoy a game of wits as I have on this site for a long time. However I also know when and where on this site to play said games, and when and where to filter and help others kindly when they seek it. I'm truly sorry a few of you have not yet figured that out yet.
And with that I leave this thread and you all, happy in knowing I alone at least put my money where my mouth was in real gaming and not vomited information from a simulated mathematical program, actually tried to better myself despite the juvenile drivel in here, and knowing that I can still get the job done and done well. Its a shame you're all going to skim this post and most likely not even get what I am trying to impart here, even far beyond the game itself. But it's a lesson that one day you may learn over time. Enjoy yourselves, boys.
Lady DSD wrote:
Moral of the story here: math on paper may give you the perfect ideals when learning how to maximize your class to its fullest but the chaos that is in actually playing the game does not always bear the same results. You (general you) play what feels comfortable for you, and sometimes minor altering to the core ideal works for some. Going a different route than others is not bad nor does it show ineptitude in their class knowledge.
I took the time yesterday and spent hundreds of gold really trying to learn more with the information given here to see if I could find the optimal route both on a dummy AND in the areas I would use it. I didnt just post on a forum bantering back and forth throwing math out from a simulation found on other boards where others did the work. I took it and did the field work on my own.
I took the time yesterday and spent hundreds of gold really trying to learn more with the information given here to see if I could find the optimal route both on a dummy AND in the areas I would use it. I didnt just post on a forum bantering back and forth throwing math out from a simulation found on other boards where others did the work. I took it and did the field work on my own.
I get that you're directing your posts at Aethien and the hunter forum in general, but I thought I'd mention that you're hardly the only one that does regular testing "in the field".
You post as if Aethien and Hyolith sit on the forums all the time reading EJ and regurgitating what they read verbatim and doing nothing else. I've had people accuse me of that, when I was spending thousands of gold (back in TBC before inflation was ridiculous) to respec and do my own testing, and it's not really conducive to a friendly attitude. Even if you're not spending thousands of gold, you're still doing your own testing if you're analyzing your data in heroics and raids.
Your holier-than-thou attitude is really pretty ridiculous, to be frank. You have zero accomplishments to speak of and as soon as someone starts questioning your numbers (as someone naturally will when you're espousing something that differs from the accepted facts), you act as if Aethien and Hyolith are the scourge of the hunter class.
I really don't get it. Why not act humble in presenting your findings so that others can learn? Why throw your ego around?
Math on paper can model for movement and anything you want it to, BTW, you just have to be smart enough to do the basic math. It also only shows potential, not what your actual DPS will be. The better you are, the closer you'll get to 100% of that modeled DPS number.
Those are the facts. You can whine about math all you want, but everyone who's successful at endgame to some extent follows the math modeling.
As long as you keep arguing against math you can spend all the gold you wish but you're still going to be a scrub.
Shut up I'm better than all of you ! HAHAHAHA
Needs more PvP gloves.
Needs more gear period, want that epic pvp bow.
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Needs more PvP gloves.
I believe you're referring to my wrist guards.
How's that photography thing working out Aeth?
No, I'm telling yopu to get PvP gloves because -4 sec from BA cooldown is awesome.
Isn't the reduction on the PvP gloves only 2 seconds now? I thought they nerfed it.
Edit: Just checked and it is 2 seconds now.
Edited, Jan 13th 2011 9:34pm by CaptinXeith
Edit: Just checked and it is 2 seconds now.
Edited, Jan 13th 2011 9:34pm by CaptinXeith
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