One thing that is related to this, but doesn't seem to have been talked about....
We keep saying DPS need to start to think... Well so do the Paly Tanks. I was in H.HoS last night as a Disc. Priest healer. We cleared everything just fine up to the room where you meet Brann (Just prior to the 3rd boss 'event')
So the Paly tank runs into the room of (what?) 4-6 giant/golem things. He attempts to pull all at once. I waited as long as I could, but he started to go <50% and I'm a relatively weak healer ~ So I didn't want to risk it. I shielded, HoT'd, and dropped a PoM on him in slightly longer than 3 Global CD. The tank lost agro and I got 2-shot.
Tanks need to also adjust to the new agro situation and start to manage pulls accordingly. Yes - DPS probably needs to adjust more. But the days of arrogantly strutting into a room and pulling everyone while you ALT+TAB to browse the internet are over....
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What blows....palidian tanking.Follow
I'm pretty sure those mobs charge random players regardless of aggro. Kind of like the Titanium Vanguard in Halls of Lightning. It doesn't happen often as I think they might have a minumun range kind of like a Warrior. Pull too many and you have a good chance of someone getting double charged
Edited, Oct 29th 2010 11:16am by arthoriuss
Edited, Oct 29th 2010 11:16am by arthoriuss
Quote:
I'm pretty sure those mobs charge random players regardless of aggro. Kind of like the Titanium Vanguard in Halls of Lightning. It doesn't happen often as I think they might have a minumun range kind of like a Warrior. Pull too many and you have a good chance of someone getting double charged
They do random charges, oftentimes early in pulls. I won't pull more than 2 at a time if I can help it, because there's too much change of an unlucky DPS getting gibbed. And like all of those charges (from UBRS on) it does have a minimum range. They do some AoE damage though, so it's not totally safe for clothies to be on top of them. In a big group pull though, it would probably be preferable.
On a related note, I have great fun pulling Titanium Vanguards on top of healers, then chasing them as they try to move out of range. The experienced ones know what I'm doing right away. The smart ones figure it out after a pull where they see they didn't get charged. The not-so-smart ones ... :)
I think they do charge, but not as often as the guys from HoL.
Unless I really missed something - I don't use omen right now - (I've been working on the regular WoW agro sensor) and I got the little "red" bar thingy and I saw the agro change. Two of them came at me, but it wasn't a mechanic (such as charge) it was straight agro.
The same thing happens A LOT in HoS - the section prior to the stone boss... As a paly tank I can EASILY take like 10 of those guys (Most are non-Elites)... *It's not a big deal in HoS because the mobs are non-elite.
But as a healer I've noticed Tanks grabbing crappy agro and then we get trash bouncing agro all over the Heals/DPS. It's not a matter of the DPS firing off AOEs either. It's the tank Picking up too many adds. With the Wrath talent set in Paly Tanking - you could do it... Now it's possible, but much more difficult and not the smartest thing to do.
Unless I really missed something - I don't use omen right now - (I've been working on the regular WoW agro sensor) and I got the little "red" bar thingy and I saw the agro change. Two of them came at me, but it wasn't a mechanic (such as charge) it was straight agro.
The same thing happens A LOT in HoS - the section prior to the stone boss... As a paly tank I can EASILY take like 10 of those guys (Most are non-Elites)... *It's not a big deal in HoS because the mobs are non-elite.
But as a healer I've noticed Tanks grabbing crappy agro and then we get trash bouncing agro all over the Heals/DPS. It's not a matter of the DPS firing off AOEs either. It's the tank Picking up too many adds. With the Wrath talent set in Paly Tanking - you could do it... Now it's possible, but much more difficult and not the smartest thing to do.
Sirfailalot wrote:
I'm beginning to think Borsuk might be a troll.
I'm beginning to think you're a whiny *****.
Prove me wrong. I dare you.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
1 post
Ok, so I don't claim to be a killer tank but what I love about tanking is the fact that I have to pay attention to whats go on with everyone else. I love people trying to pull off of me because it keeps me busy and on my feet. What's the point in becoming a tank if all you want to do is focus on 1 monster in a mob and assume everything else is gonna stick to you? It's boring as hell.
If that's how you want to play, reroll dps and stay out if the way of people who want to tank. Especially in Cata, where CC is far more important then in LK. If you can't see around to make sure your maintaining aggro then get out now cause your gonna hate it.
Holy power imo is killer. I love it. Not only can you help out your healers if needed without using LoH but you can give burst damage. Use your spells as needed, know where your fingers are and what keys do what and when to use it and you'll fall back in love with tanking and then you can laugh at that lock trying to pull off ya.
If that's how you want to play, reroll dps and stay out if the way of people who want to tank. Especially in Cata, where CC is far more important then in LK. If you can't see around to make sure your maintaining aggro then get out now cause your gonna hate it.
Holy power imo is killer. I love it. Not only can you help out your healers if needed without using LoH but you can give burst damage. Use your spells as needed, know where your fingers are and what keys do what and when to use it and you'll fall back in love with tanking and then you can laugh at that lock trying to pull off ya.
Scholar
24 posts
Had I read that before I probably would have blown up. I was admittedly a little butthurt by the fact that my favorite tank was doing so poorly compared to a class I barely even knew in WORSE gear (My war). Calling him a troll outright was a bit harsh, just because I rather disliked holy power AT THE TIME and he seemed supportive of it.
Frankly I'm over it though. The biggest issues SHOULD be going away in the next seven days with inquisition and there'll be a full gear reset. New tanks will actually have a chance again without spending 50kg on crafted gear they'll replace within five or so hours.
I still say Holy Power is slow for prot. Or more to the point it's abilities just don't generate enough threat with how long it takes to prepare them currently. I'm actually losing threat on main targets while going ******* on threat abilities. And this is in heroics :( I highly doubt our threat scales as well as dps does with raid buffs. Maybe if they made Word of Glory generate a fair amount of threat per point healed with RF up or Added another 30-70% threat to Shield of righteousness. (Though I have no idea about 85 at the moment.)
Anyway it's all pointless now. Seven days from now we get to see if Prot's really broken or if the scaling is just **** until you're in Cat gear. With any luck it won't take them 3 major content patches to make them playable if they ARE broken.
Actually side note, did anyone notice a massive loss in threat at some inane point in 4.0.1? For some reason I just kinda..lost about a fifth of my threat output. Or maybe the dps just started putting out a lot more, I haven't checked the ACTUAL numbers yet. I was holding fine one day, the next every last pug I was struggling on my main targets.
Frankly I'm over it though. The biggest issues SHOULD be going away in the next seven days with inquisition and there'll be a full gear reset. New tanks will actually have a chance again without spending 50kg on crafted gear they'll replace within five or so hours.
I still say Holy Power is slow for prot. Or more to the point it's abilities just don't generate enough threat with how long it takes to prepare them currently. I'm actually losing threat on main targets while going ******* on threat abilities. And this is in heroics :( I highly doubt our threat scales as well as dps does with raid buffs. Maybe if they made Word of Glory generate a fair amount of threat per point healed with RF up or Added another 30-70% threat to Shield of righteousness. (Though I have no idea about 85 at the moment.)
Anyway it's all pointless now. Seven days from now we get to see if Prot's really broken or if the scaling is just **** until you're in Cat gear. With any luck it won't take them 3 major content patches to make them playable if they ARE broken.
Actually side note, did anyone notice a massive loss in threat at some inane point in 4.0.1? For some reason I just kinda..lost about a fifth of my threat output. Or maybe the dps just started putting out a lot more, I haven't checked the ACTUAL numbers yet. I was holding fine one day, the next every last pug I was struggling on my main targets.
You tend to notice the threat issues moreso in heroics because everything is just burst, burst, burst. In raids everything (even trash) lasts a lot longer and you are being hit for more so theoretically your Vengence should buff you more. Over a sustained period of time you should out-threat your dps. I haven't tanked anything serious since when 4.0.1a hit but the only beef I had was the Vengence stacks dropping off when you would stop start in heroics. I agree that it takes too long to get a 3 HP HotR hit. In that time most DPS have already blown all their CDs and are right on your tail.
I tend to go for the critters before a boss so I can unload some 3 HoPo HotR as soon as I engage the boss.
I tend to go for the critters before a boss so I can unload some 3 HoPo HotR as soon as I engage the boss.
Scholar
24 posts
Vengeance MIGHT be the answer to fixing threat issues in 5mans as well. I actually have a few IDEAS rather than just pointless ******** but I'm sure the Devs have heard them.
One is pretty simple. Make vengeance decay a LOT slower, or maybe just add a buffer time before it begins to drop so you can actually reach the next set of mobs if your group doesn't need to drink or anything yet.
The other would be allowing holy power to regenerate outside of combat rather than fall. Maybe a talent deep in Prot or something, replacing that stupid Divine plea = 3 hp thing. ( a 2 min cd for 3 hp feels kinda craptastic to me.)
Then there's allowing Hammer of the righteous to occasionally generate two holy power. But frankly I'd like to stay AWAY from the new rng system the damned Devs have used to destroy ret and dks. I have TERRIBLE luck with pretty much everything so that utterly destroyed my ret spec for me.
*Edit: Not saying YOU were ********* I came off like I was a lot. Frankly I think the new system COULD be good with some fixes, I really do. But right now it's really not so great.
Edited, Nov 30th 2010 11:48am by Sirfailalot
One is pretty simple. Make vengeance decay a LOT slower, or maybe just add a buffer time before it begins to drop so you can actually reach the next set of mobs if your group doesn't need to drink or anything yet.
The other would be allowing holy power to regenerate outside of combat rather than fall. Maybe a talent deep in Prot or something, replacing that stupid Divine plea = 3 hp thing. ( a 2 min cd for 3 hp feels kinda craptastic to me.)
Then there's allowing Hammer of the righteous to occasionally generate two holy power. But frankly I'd like to stay AWAY from the new rng system the damned Devs have used to destroy ret and dks. I have TERRIBLE luck with pretty much everything so that utterly destroyed my ret spec for me.
*Edit: Not saying YOU were ********* I came off like I was a lot. Frankly I think the new system COULD be good with some fixes, I really do. But right now it's really not so great.
Edited, Nov 30th 2010 11:48am by Sirfailalot
Yosalt wrote:
Tanking is no longer fun.
Holy power mechanic sucks my ....
4.0.1 makes me want to cancel my acount.
Edited, Oct 15th 2010 3:24pm by Osarion
Holy power mechanic sucks my ....
4.0.1 makes me want to cancel my acount.
Edited, Oct 15th 2010 3:24pm by Osarion
I actually like it more now. More to do, more buttons to hit, more stuff to watch.. I don't know. I just started tanking heroics last night though, so we'll see how raids go. In sh*tty 187 gear I'm having no trouble in heroics or icc5mans though. :/
*Question.. why was his post edited by Osarion? I know Osarion from the FF forums and I'm confused.
Edited, Nov 30th 2010 9:44am by GuardianFaith
Quote:
The other would be allowing holy power to regenerate outside of combat rather than fall. Maybe a talent deep in Prot or something, replacing that stupid Divine plea = 3 hp thing. ( a 2 min cd for 3 hp feels kinda craptastic to me.)
Then there's allowing Hammer of the righteous to occasionally generate two holy power. But frankly I'd like to stay AWAY from the new rng system the damned Devs have used to destroy ret and dks. I have TERRIBLE luck with pretty much everything so that utterly destroyed my ret spec for me.
Then there's allowing Hammer of the righteous to occasionally generate two holy power. But frankly I'd like to stay AWAY from the new rng system the damned Devs have used to destroy ret and dks. I have TERRIBLE luck with pretty much everything so that utterly destroyed my ret spec for me.
Balancing HP is always going to be tricky. At current heal health lvls WoG healing instead of ShoR I'm basically unkillable in 5mans even in 1/2 ret gear. I thought the Divine plea change was great, as you can use it as a defensive or offensive cd every 2min(be nice if the cd was shorter, maybe 90sec or something).
I do think your point on vengeance decay to be right on though and its a problem all tank forums have been pointing to since the talent changes went live. Its especially troublesome if you have a decent avoidance string at the start of a boss fight(not so much in 5mans as you can compensate by simply using dps gear, at least for the moment).
Sirfailalot wrote:
Had I read that before I probably would have blown up. I was admittedly a little butthurt by the fact that my favorite tank was doing so poorly compared to a class I barely even knew in WORSE gear (My war).
I was just trolling you. It's what I do.
As for tanks being crappy, I think it's a general thing right now. Druids are broken and AOE tanking has turned into ***** for most other classes. The game right now is balanced around level 85 and not so heavy AOE dungeons. The problem being, of course, that we're still locked at level 80 and in content where AOE is king.
You should see me whine about Swipe on the Druid board. It's pretty hilarious.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Mazra wrote:
Druids are broken and AOE tanking has turned into sh*te
Lies Mazra! In WotLK, Druid tanks have gone into secret mouse form and snuck passed the nerf bat every time it's come out swinging!
Edited, Dec 1st 2010 7:06am by arthoriuss
I would just like to throw in my two cents about threat: it was not so long ago that DPS would wait before they started their DPS rotation. Not any longer than 2-5 seconds, but I distinctly remember waiting 5 seconds on a number of bosses even in Naxxramus and we had some DAMN good tanks.
Now don't get me wrong, we had many of the best-on-server DPS as well, and that was the point: if you had an over-geared and skilled Tank with run-of-the-mill DPS, the DPS could essentially be getting first hits. On a level playing field, though, the burst damage of some of these DPS classes REQUIRED an ever-so-tiny pause so the tank can lock it down AND the use of threat reduction.
It just feels that people have gotten complacent with the way it is now, but the way it is now is constantly being complained about. Everyone knows it was too easy. The fact that you could have PUG'd the hardest Raids in the game is simply wrong. That may be an opinion but it's common sense: the hardest things should require a real team that works together in unity. They must know each other's strengths and weaknesses. They must know how and when to cover each other's asses.
I notice now for almost all classes the necessity to take a new look at spells, abilities, gear choices, and general strategies that have long been lost. These tools and tactics are there, they've always been there and they have never gone away. They have just been overlooked because they haven't been needed. Perhaps they are needed again. Perhaps it's a good thing.
Now don't get me wrong, we had many of the best-on-server DPS as well, and that was the point: if you had an over-geared and skilled Tank with run-of-the-mill DPS, the DPS could essentially be getting first hits. On a level playing field, though, the burst damage of some of these DPS classes REQUIRED an ever-so-tiny pause so the tank can lock it down AND the use of threat reduction.
It just feels that people have gotten complacent with the way it is now, but the way it is now is constantly being complained about. Everyone knows it was too easy. The fact that you could have PUG'd the hardest Raids in the game is simply wrong. That may be an opinion but it's common sense: the hardest things should require a real team that works together in unity. They must know each other's strengths and weaknesses. They must know how and when to cover each other's asses.
I notice now for almost all classes the necessity to take a new look at spells, abilities, gear choices, and general strategies that have long been lost. These tools and tactics are there, they've always been there and they have never gone away. They have just been overlooked because they haven't been needed. Perhaps they are needed again. Perhaps it's a good thing.
GuardianFaith wrote:
*Question.. why was his post edited by Osarion? I know Osarion from the FF forums and I'm confused.
At least, that's my guess. You'd have to actually PM him to be certain of why he edited it.
arthoriuss wrote:
Mazra wrote:
Druids are broken and AOE tanking has turned into sh*te
Lies Mazra! In WotLK, Druid tanks have gone into secret mouse form and snuck passed the nerf bat every time it's come out swinging!
Yeah, just a shame we didn't miss the Cataclysm bat.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Scholar
24 posts
I'm thinking WoG is going to scale like utter garbage so that'll likely be a lot less of an issue post 80. And really as nice as surviving forever is if we can't hold threat do to being based around a slow mechanic all the survivability in the world means nothing. I'm hoping prot pallies and druids will be hitting a LOT harder by 85 or I might actually shelve mine for a while. And that hurts :( He's been my main since I can remember pretty much.
And yeah Moz I heard the feral nerfs have rendered them all shelved until the 7th. Frankly I SAW it, my baby 71 druid can't really tank at ALL :( And I wanted to. They nerf around 85 without considering that you have to REACH 85 in the first place. If you can't tank effectively and choose not to tank at all until then you're going to suck pretty badly do to lack of practice. They've created a bit of an issue with that. (Just mean a scenario based around a new player coming up, no one specific.)
But it isn't entirely aoe issues for me. Somehow I'm seeing them pull my main target even when I'm going completely nuts on it :( It might be because I'm spamming hammer with a tank weapon rather than CS with a dps weapon though :( Course if I don't the heals tend to pull off me so.. yeah.
Damn I type too much and say too little with it.
And yeah Moz I heard the feral nerfs have rendered them all shelved until the 7th. Frankly I SAW it, my baby 71 druid can't really tank at ALL :( And I wanted to. They nerf around 85 without considering that you have to REACH 85 in the first place. If you can't tank effectively and choose not to tank at all until then you're going to suck pretty badly do to lack of practice. They've created a bit of an issue with that. (Just mean a scenario based around a new player coming up, no one specific.)
But it isn't entirely aoe issues for me. Somehow I'm seeing them pull my main target even when I'm going completely nuts on it :( It might be because I'm spamming hammer with a tank weapon rather than CS with a dps weapon though :( Course if I don't the heals tend to pull off me so.. yeah.
Damn I type too much and say too little with it.
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