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More Disc talk (Sky! Falling! Duck!)Follow

#1 Sep 20 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here.

DISC PRIEST: Shield doesn't absorb enough and it costs too much mana. As a result I'm more of a gimped Holy priest than an absorption healer.
GHOSTCRAWLER: Yeah, that's working as intended.

This has to be the fourth or fifth time I've heard this; that they've nerfed Shield too hard, that it's nearly gutting the Disc play style. Numbers aren't supposed to matter yet, but GC's answer isn't about numbers so much as philosophy. Sure, you'll use Shield more than Holy priests do, but your spec isn't built around absorption anymore.

Poo. I keep having faith they'll fix this, but then my husband reminds me how he didn't play his rogue for the entire Lich King expansion. Sometimes they just break stuff and leave it broken. Good thing my class has two healing trees, I guess, but if these complaints turn out to have merit, I will really mourn the loss of Disc as we know it.

Meanwhile, I also agree with that poster's comment that healers will probably bear the brunt of the learning curve as people figure out they have to play smart and use CC and whatnot. I'm cool with that though. I think a couple of months of dealing with pugdummies is a fair price to pay for not seeing chat filled with gogogogogogogo anymore.
#2 Sep 20 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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If shields are too expensive to keep up WS on people you are healing it also has the affect of nerfing Rapture and Renewed Hope. Low crit rates also will devalue Divine Aegis. Those two effects will combine to make mastery next to worthless. As no absorb effects means no use for the mastery.

Its kind of weird that they would make PW:S not the focus of the tree as that is the whole focus of the tree right now. Even with the Cata talents PW:S seems to be the focus of the tree but most blue comments seem to be indicating that PW:S is not the focus of the tree.

Soul Warding still drops the CD to 0 which combined with recent blue posts leads me to think the tree is getting another pass. Regardless, too many talents propping a spell they don't us to be able to use with a high frequency creates an awkward spec.
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#3 Sep 20 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
It seems like in WotLK Holy got almost completely passed over, while Disc got all the love.

Now, it seems like it's Holy's turn to be the center of attention, and Disc's to be the red headed stepchild.

Blizzard, please, stop being terrible parents. Love both your kids equally, even if one of them does have a slightly unhealthy obsession with bubbles.
#4 Sep 20 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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IDrownFish wrote:
Now, it seems like it's Holy's turn to be the center of attention, and Disc's to be the red headed stepchild.


Which wouldn't bother me, because Holy deserves some new bells and whistles. But there's no reason to fundamentally change Disc in the process. I'm all for them making changes in accordance with the overall healing changes: make me use more than one spell, make sure I'm not spamming one or two buttons over and over, make me think about what to use, make me think about mana. But they need to find that middle ground between shield being the only button we push and making the spec not about mitigation anymore.

It would be fine to make shield an occasional spell but why replace it entirely with direct healing? If you want us to push more buttons, give us more mitigation buttons. I'm sure there are other creative ways to absorb or decrease damage besides PW:S. Heck, even put shield in line with your new 3-heal philosophy by giving us the big expensive shield, the medium mana efficient shield, and the instant really expensive shield. Obviously it's too late for them to put in a bunch of new spells, and in any case I can see why they wouldn't. It's a different spec but it's not a different class, after all.

But. Middle ground, Blizz. Middle ground.
#5 Sep 20 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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I would like to see the spec based on keeping PW:S/WS up on 2-3 targets with Heal, Penance, BT->GH, PoM and PW:B being the main spells. Would lend towards tank healing which I'm fine with as a healing scheme. The SoS talent lends itself to such a pattern quite nicely.

Still with shields being tossed around less it makes the talent point expenditure for this like Rapture a bit expensive for the effect. That I suppose is my main question with what they are doing. Shifting away from shields as the main spell make many of the talents and point budgets seem out of whack.

Expensive and ineffective shields tend to devalue keeping up the PW:S/WS combo. Too cheap of shields lend to shield spam at the same time, PW:S getting treatment similar to AB could be an interesting way to spice up the mix and prevent shield spam.
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#6 Sep 20 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Horsemouth wrote:
Still with shields being tossed around less it makes the talent point expenditure for this like Rapture a bit expensive for the effect. That I suppose is my main question with what they are doing. Shifting away from shields as the main spell make many of the talents and point budgets seem out of whack.


I agree and think this is the biggest part of the problem. It sounds to me like they've reduced the importance of shield way out of proportion with the number of talents based around it as well as the tree's mastery. Even the description of Disc says "Uses magic to shield allies from taking damage as well as heal their wounds." On paper, they're still claiming this tree is based on preventing and reducing damage, but I haven't heard one person on the ground say this is happening at all effectively.

It seems like a transitional phase, like they want to move away from what Disc was, but haven't yet decided what to replace it with. Essentially I feel like I've got a mish-mash of stuff that doesn't fit together well, with a bunch of talents that no longer support how I'm expected to heal. I don't really know what Disc is supposed to be. I keep hearing the voice of one of the Bobs from Office Space in my head: "What would you say you DO here?"

They don't want niches like must heal tank/must heal raid anymore, which I think is nice, but the tree still has to feel like it's unified under some overarching concept. When the changes were first announced I thought that using shield and smite together, already nicely effective, was going to become even more so. Prevent damage, deal damage, heal damage, in that order. I was thrilled with the idea, although I'll recognize it's problematic for raiding and that's probably one of the things they're struggling with.

This is all purely theoretical for me based on what I'm reading though. I'll see what I think when I can actually try it out.
#7 Sep 20 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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They'll change it from where it is now, I can promise you that.

Why? Because of one simple reason. Your mastery improves your absorbs. At the moment, you're using 95% heals (note, "heals" in general; the 'Heal' spell is 80% of that) and 5% absorbs. Disc won't be viable in any kind of content as it is due to the simple fact that it basically gets no benefit from it's mastery at all in most cases.
#8 Sep 21 2010 at 4:12 AM Rating: Good
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Moz make a beta post regarding disc in the post teacake linked.

The thread is interesting BUT...

No one is mentioning the fact the 90% of the talents in disc, especially the 3 pointers, are based off of a system consisting of shield spam with a high crit percentage to proc DA which is non existent in Cata and is what is causing all of the hubbub.

Offending talents are:
Mental Agility, we don't spam an instant so is devalued at 3 points.
Soul Warding, a 3 second CD reduction on a spell with a 3 second CD is retarded.
Rapture, once a huge mana source with less shields it becomes very meh.
Borrowed Time, to large of investment if they want us to shield less as we will not be under BT as often.
Reflective Shield, should work on all shields we cast not just self ones. Reduce damage if needed.
Divine Aegis, lower crit rates make it pricey and dicey.
Grace, a penalty for changing targets is never fun.
PW:B, should be centered on a person not a location.
Divine Fury and Empowered Healing, one of these needs to be 2 points and EH makes more sense.
Desperate Prayer, should be baseline.

Tell them to make Disc be Smite healers. Discipline as healing through pain would be awesome.
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#9 Sep 21 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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Made my reply Horse, and included your bit =)
#10 Sep 21 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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You go, Moz and Horse!
#11 Sep 21 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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They do seem to be shaking things up a ton here. All very dramatic, especially with the tantalizing changes to Holy. One is left with worries about the viability of the tree, let alone the play style.

My only thought is that the person who posted that was just humbled on their first run through a level 85 beta dungeon in a game that is lacking some fine tuning and a lot of the gear we will have available.

Crit rates are always abysmally low when you reach a new level cap and the new Disc looks to be more crit dependent than past incarnations and Cata healing looks like it will benefit from crits a lot more. Tank damage will also go down with better gear. CC and focus firing targets may also be needed and we really didn't get much insight into what the rest of that person's group was doing or how they were geared. The shortcomings of a whole group manifest themselves in a healer's mana bar.

That said, I do see some potential problems with investing so many talent points in PW:S if it won't be viable as a substitute for AoE healing. However, it really seems like Blizzard intends for Atonement/Evangelism to alleviate that problem and prevent Disc priests from being just "Heal"ers or "Shield"ers. I think we all have doubts about Atonement right now, and if this mechanism doesn't work, or forces Priests into really tight "rotations" to get max output, it will be a turn off. A related question, can the heal from Atonement crit to proc DA?

It does seem like a much more complex system which would be prone to both balancing issues and player error but it sounds like a rewarding play style, and a drastic step away from simplicity.
#12 Sep 21 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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CatPredator wrote:
can the heal from Atonement crit to proc DA?


As I understand it, it currently cannot. It's one of the things people are suggesting to help fix what they see as Disc's problems. If it's an absorption spec (as the mastery would seem to indicate), then give us more absorbs.
#13 Sep 21 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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It really seems like they should work crit heals into Atonement, either by making it innate or glyphing it. That would really cement it's place in Disc's talent spec though, if it isn't already mandatory. I know I've seen people talking about skipping it but that may not be realistic.
#14 Sep 21 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
I may have to go back to holy. That will certainly be different.

I'll admit it. I'm a shield spammer. I have enjoyed the disc playstyle. If I am being forced into being primarily heals, rather than absorbs, then I want to have the best heals I can. I've never been a smite spec. From what I am reading, the new heals from smiting are nothing great.

I leveled from 1 to 75 as holy. I fell in love with disc. Unless I read where in the new trees people are fun and effective as disc, and more than second class healers, I'll pass on it for this expansion. I've got some new talents picked out to last me until the patch hits, and I think tonight I'll head down a new hiway.

Edited, Sep 22nd 2010 8:09pm by dadanox
#15 Sep 23 2010 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
Well, I made that change to holy and spent some time working on my UI. I've got Satrina Buff Frames and Power Auras popping up indicators for when CoH, PoM, and GS are available. I've got a count going on Serendipity stacks, and "Flash Heal" pops up on my screen when SoL procs (although I see I could Smite for free also at that point). I hopped into a VH normal to try it all out and the group didn't die.

Maybe tonight I'll even get out the Razor Naga I've still got in its box and give it another try. GC gave me lemons, so I'm making some new lemonade.
#16 Sep 23 2010 at 6:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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The Honorable dadanox wrote:
Well, I made that change to holy and spent some time working on my UI. I've got Satrina Buff Frames and Power Auras popping up indicators for when CoH, PoM, and GS are available. I've got a count going on Serendipity stacks, and "Flash Heal" pops up on my screen when SoL procs (although I see I could Smite for free also at that point). I hopped into a VH normal to try it all out and the group didn't die.

Maybe tonight I'll even get out the Razor Naga I've still got in its box and give it another try. GC gave me lemons, so I'm making some new lemonade.


I admire your adaptability! Love my Naga, btw.

I've considered doing the same, switching over to Holy and trying to relearn the basics before all the new stuff gets added on top of it. But I'm not ready to give up on Disc yet. I'm waiting to see how it shakes out. Will the last one leaving the Disc tree please turn out the lights.
#17 Sep 24 2010 at 2:28 AM Rating: Good
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Hmmm....

Yes maybe, but I don't know for sure.

click

Either way it is starting to look a bit better.

Maybe here if Rapture is weak.

I still think Rapture needs work but other wise I like.

The 10 in holy are needed to make it work but good moves in a cool direction.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2010 10:42pm by Horsemouth
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#18 Sep 24 2010 at 5:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Woah! Is it just me or is that tree completely different? When did they put SoL way so far down in Holy too? Off to play with it...
#19 Sep 24 2010 at 5:29 AM Rating: Good
Well,
I found out that my naga, although working fine solo, wasn't targeting people in the raid group without me adding mouseover macros or the like. My attempt at a quick fix was icc wipe one. I made an emergency switch back to my 5 button mouse. The night went ok. More people died than normal. I think part of it is that without all the shields, dumb moves by raid members have more severe consequences. As holy, I miss instant shields and penance, and mana goes down quicker.

I want to stay holy for a while and get used to it for the experience. When the patch hits I'll probably dual spec both healing trees to gain time with each. We will see if I can last that long.
#20 Sep 24 2010 at 5:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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GC wrote:
There is an optional Discipline build where you take Atonement/Archangel and you can use Smite on the tanked target, and have higher HPS than if you just chain Heal the tank. This isn’t always optimal, as Atonement heals the lowest health target (which could be a Rogue standing in a fire), but that’s not always such a bad thing in Cataclysm’s environment where the MT doesn’t have to be spam healed. That said, we think it is interesting gameplay unique to the Disc priest.

In an upcoming build, when you critically hit with Smite your Atonement will critically heal (and cause Divine Aegis).

We’ve also optimized some of the talents, and pruned some of the 3-pointers down to 2-pointers and also reduced the mana cost of Power Word: Barrier throughout the tree.

We’re toning Spiritual Guidance down to bring the healing mount between Discipline and Holy closer together, Holy’s “talent tree passive” is currently stronger than intended than Discipline’s.

We want Disc to be able to do any raid job, but we are also trying not to just have every healer use the same retinue of spells. If the situation arises, they should be able to Prayer of Heal, Holy Nova, Prayer of Mending for comparable healing throughput / efficiency as Holy can to raid heal. The only difference is Holy can be in a Chakra state which increases the healing done, but then again Disc can heal for 30%+ (depending on Mastery) with Divine Aegis and can also cast free Prayer of Healing with Inner Focus


(emphasis mine)

I knew I could count on them to do something. :) I think figuring out how Smite fits in with healing across the range of activities we do will be a learning curve, but an interesting one. It certainly brings a unique feel back to Disc. My only wish at this point is to see the numbers tweaked enough that absorbs remain our first line of defense, by which I mean, shield isn't the only button we push by any means, but at least for the tank/main target, it's the first.

I continue to reserve judgment until I try it but I feel better about it this morning than I have all week, certainly.

Edit: If Horse's linked trees prove accurate I'll start with some version of 34/7 to pick up Surge of Light and tweak from there. With crit % being so low I'm brave enough to pass on Inspiration for now. I may even leave off Borrowed Time to get the other stuff I want. I've never been very reliant on haste (yes, I know it's trendy and I'm uncool) anyway.

Edit 2: I also question the relative value of haste in an environment where spells cost more and you need to maintain mana for a longer period of time. This is not the hurry-up-and-cast paradigm we're living with now, and I wonder how haste is going to fare. Borrowed Time is a core Disc talent but I'm totally going to try without and see what happens.

Edited, Sep 24th 2010 8:15am by teacake
#21 Sep 24 2010 at 7:10 AM Rating: Decent
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I think I'm liking the idea of smite disc for PvP. Holy still seems preferable for PvE, but it sounds like more nerfs are on their way for Holy.
#22 Sep 24 2010 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
I'm glad to see they are keeping a close watch on the situation. Even though I beat out our druid on heals last night, for now maybe I'll come back to disc where I feel the most comfortable and see how things go. I like having the instant buttons of Shield and Penance available.
#23 Sep 24 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Decent
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It does look interesting. I quite like the huge Atonement buff, as this definitely gives disc priests a very interesting edge. Cookie cutter atm looks to be something like this. I could see something like this be an option as well, though. Even if you would use Shield four times as much as you currently use it, Borrowed Time simply isn't as much as a must anymore as it currently is. If you swap the points in Rapture for points in Mental Agility (both buff mana pool, should be more or less equal), you can drop BT and have a point left you can drop wherever you want - Empowered Healing, Desperate Prayer or Veiled Shadows.

Holy still works out nicely if you are willing to drop Test of Faith. If not, it should look like this or this.

I really need to give these specs a roll again. I'll try and get some time to do so, once I finish up with my SC2 map and Mass Effect 2.
#24 Sep 24 2010 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mozared wrote:
Cookie cutter atm looks to be something like this. I could see something like this be an option as well, though.


I can see that. But, I'm just going to say it, and you can all get the vapors: I'm not taking Grace anymore. Grace sucks, and I'm not going to be penalized for changing targets anymore. I've spoken my piece and counted to three.

For PVE I'd do this. For PVP I'd do the same thing except swap out Inspiration for Focused Will. I'd probably use the PVP version between now and 85 to move easily between solo questing, dungeons, and battlegrounds while preserving my second spec for something else.

Edited, Sep 24th 2010 2:28pm by teacake
#25 Sep 24 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
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teacake wrote:
Mozared wrote:
Cookie cutter atm looks to be something like this. I could see something like this be an option as well, though.


I can see that. But, I'm just going to say it, and you can all get the vapors: I'm not taking Grace anymore. Grace sucks, and I'm not going to be penalized for changing targets anymore. I've spoken my piece and counted to three.

For PVE I'd do this. For PVP I'd do the same thing except swap out Inspiration for Focused Will. I'd probably use the PVP version between now and 85 to move easily between solo questing, dungeons, and battlegrounds while preserving my second spec for something else.

Edited, Sep 24th 2010 2:28pm by teacake


I see your no Grace and raise you no Rapture.

Mainly cast Smite, Penance and instant FH from SoL to heal. Use PW:S->BT+GH for spike damage. SoS is filler as we aren't spamming Heal, we spam Smite. Soul Warding is still needed for BT+Haste tricks, not to spam shields. Use Archangel on CD for mana and extra healing. With enough haste we can keep the buff up always so we take some points in Darkness instead of Inspiration.

ps. I also raised you Inspiration.
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#26 Sep 24 2010 at 4:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I'd LOVE not to take Grace, but the damn talent is just so ridiculously good you can't really skip it. Same with Inspiration. If you ever heal a tank, you need it.

Horse, no disrespect, but your spec looks terrible to me. The only thing I like is the idea using SoS as a filler since you go with Smite healing, but
A) Darkness over Veiled Shadows? What? Nononono.
B) Why 3 points in Empowered Healing? Yeah, then you might as well grab Grace.
C) Borrowed Time just to heal 'spike damage' with PW:S+Greater Heal is a terrible idea. As it is now, I wouldn't be surprised if haste simply became a no-go stat for healers. Cata healing is the opposite of WOTLK. If your tank is going to die, it won't happen in a GCD, but it'll slowly start happening over the next 15 seconds. No amount of haste on that Greater Heal isn't going to change much, and 15% isn't even a noticeable amount.
D) If this were a PvP spec, it could work, but since you mentioned spamming Heal/Smite I'm gonna go ahead and say you meant it to be a PvE spec. In which case you *need* Inspiration.

Edited, Sep 25th 2010 12:23am by Mozared
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