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#1 Mar 02 2010 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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Got it from mmo-champion:

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If you are a Balance druid or Elemental shaman:

* You will still share gear with Restoration druids and shaman.
* Your gear will have Spirit on it. It won’t have Hit on it.
* You will have a talent that converts Spirit to Hit. We will adjust talents accordingly so that you want about as much Spirit as, say, a warlock wants Hit.
* Hit on rings and other such gear will still benefit you.
* Raid buffs will no longer boost Spirit, so you shouldn’t find yourself unexpectedly over the Hit cap because of buffs.


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If you are a melee DPS class, druid tank, or hunter, expect to see:

* A lot more Stamina. Bear-form Stamina scaling will be lowered as a result.
* Strength if you wear plate. Agility if you wear mail or leather.
* Existing Attack Power becomes Agility and Stamina.Armor Penetration becomes Haste or Crit.
* No Intellect on melee gear. Hunters won’t need Intellect since they will no longer use mana. Shaman and Retribution paladins will get mana and spell damage in other ways.


Quote:

If you are a healer, expect to see:

* A lot more Stamina.
* All of your Spell Power converted to Intellect and Stamina.
* Spirit instead of MP5. You’ll probably be happy with Spirit, though, because mana regen is going to matter more than it does currently. Healing paladins and shaman will benefit more from Spirit than they do currently.


As a moonkin, I dont know if its a good or bad thing to have to compete with healers...

Edited, Mar 2nd 2010 1:14pm by Brisin
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#2 Mar 02 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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If it makes you feel better I already roll on a lot of stuff that is probably considered boomkin. Well, anything that doesn't have +hit on it really. Spirit on gear is kinda lame. :p

It does seem the classes will be rolling on more of the same gear though. Then again if there is better overlap I can't imagine it being a problem. I mean it sounds like boomkins will be able to make use of "healer" gear too. If we really just use the same stats differently, you get the 2x the people rolling for 2x the gear and it evens out.

Then again, if you are in a raid that likes to gear tanks and healers first, I feel for you.
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#3 Mar 02 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:


Then again, if you are in a raid that likes to gear tanks and healers first, I feel for you.

Yeah, that was my point...
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#4 Mar 02 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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...

bummer :S

...

Well look on the bright side, at least the healer will get geared twice as fast. Means he'll be done rolling for stuff sooner, leaving more for you. *shrugs*

Honestly I've never been a fan of "healers + tanks first." It just seems to lead to more enrage timer wipes instead of tank-loss wipes. Nothing like spending 10 minutes in a fight realizing you can't beat the boss yet, when you can lose the tank 30 seconds in and come to the same conclusion. Could spend that extra time in another instance, or farming to get better gear. *shrugs*
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#5 Mar 02 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Raid bosses are rarely never tuned to such an extent that you need same-tier gear just to make the enrage timer. If you aren't making it, your dps still has room to improve somewhere, and probably in multiple ways.

Tank deaths, on the other hand, are absolute, and cut the encounter short before your DPS has the chance to properly make a difference.
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#6 Mar 02 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I must say, it is amazing how much difference those 2-3 people dieing to avoidable damage would have made to being able to hit the enrage timer. If the whole raid stays alive, gear isn't that much of an issue.

I believe it was T4 that had the Warrior/Priest/Druid tokens. That sucked! I was behind the tank AND the healer then for tier gear - it isn't a good feeling to get passed over all the time....

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#7 Mar 02 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Overlord Norellicus wrote:
Raid bosses are rarely never tuned to such an extent that you need same-tier gear just to make the enrage timer. If you aren't making it, your dps still has room to improve somewhere, and probably in multiple ways.


Okay, I don't really want to derail, but I have a concern now. Because our healers are usually the worst geared of our group, and we still fear enrage timers...

About how much DPS would you expect out of a raid member in an average of ilvl 232 gear in ICC?

Edited, Mar 2nd 2010 3:25pm by someproteinguy
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#8 Mar 02 2010 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Overlord Norellicus wrote:
Raid bosses are rarely never tuned to such an extent that you need same-tier gear just to make the enrage timer. If you aren't making it, your dps still has room to improve somewhere, and probably in multiple ways.


Okay, I don't really want to derail, but I have a concern now. Because our healers are usually the worst geared of our group, and we still fear enrage timers...

About how much DPS would you expect out of a raid member in an average of ilvl 232 gear in ICC?

Edited, Mar 2nd 2010 3:25pm by someproteinguy

Minimium 6k on bosses in a 25 raid. Dunno about 10's raids but should be more or less that. Of course, the first part of the raid (first 4 bosses) you can do with less than that and only have some trouble at the 4th boss, but later you will need more than that.
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#9 Mar 03 2010 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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Festergut requires 18 dps (2 tanks 6 healers) to be doing 7k, with the tanks doing 3k. With a few Icecrown pieces, I can get off ~8k. Without them I was at 7.5ish, both without flask/elixirs.

That's evenly distributed of course, if you have someone doing 9k, that's 1k someone else doesn't technically have to do.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2010 8:44am by Norellicus
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#10 Mar 03 2010 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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Overlord Norellicus wrote:
Festergut requires 18 dps (2 tanks 6 healers) to be doing 7k, with the tanks doing 3k. With a few Icecrown pieces, I can get off ~8k. Without them I was at 7.5ish, both without flask/elixirs.

Definitely worth noting that your tank's DPS may be higher than 3k, especially on 25 man. On my 10 man kill of Festergut, I did ~3.5k DPS as a warrior tank and my DK co-tank did ~4k DPS. I'd still be more comfortable with DPS around the 7k (for a 25), because sh*t happens, especially when you're learning a fight.

10 man with 3 healers, DPS had better be 5k+ or you're going to have trouble making the enrage timer.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2010 1:53pm by tabstopper
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#11 Mar 03 2010 at 10:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ya festergut is scaring me.

On 10s it looks like we'll need 31.7k DPS from the group. If we can get 2.5k out of the tanks that leaves about 4.5k from the DPS on average. The thing that worries me is that we only have 1 DPS who can do 4.5k at this point...

This was last nights Deathwhisper kill, though without our best DPS. Note the time of death, it's why I'm worried. ;-)
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#12 Mar 03 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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Yikes!

I would say even your tanks need some work, I'm fairly certain you should be able to breach 2k in 232 gear. It's been a little while since I was at that gear level though so it may be wishful thinking :)

But regardless of that, brief looks at several of those dps' armories shows some definite fine tuning required on several fronts. I don't want to go into a heavy laundry list here without provocation, but I would definitely advise your people to read around on their specs, ability "rotations" (I don't like using that word because it's a misnomer in most cases), gemming optimization, etc.
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#13 Mar 03 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Overlord Norellicus wrote:
I'm fairly certain you should be able to breach 2k in 232 gear.


Ok, it wasn't just me thinking that then. I remember doing 2k on my bear back in Ulduar, but I have no idea what is reasonable for the other tanking classes nowadays. :S

As for the DPS: the S-priest was a PuG, so I know little about him. The warrior, rogue and boomkin are new to the guild, and I know little about their previous raid experience. The ret pally mystifies me. He was almost 1k higher on our last kill. But he healed Marrowgar, and I suspect he didn't switch a piece or two of gear on the change over (wouldn't be the first time)... :S

Anyway I'm done making excuses, it seems pretty obvious if we don't improve we aren't getting much farther. Honestly any advice is appreciated, though "improve everything" seems to be a good place to start X-D. I don't know how much anyone will listen, but repeated face-planting on Festergut in a couple of weeks will probably change minds. ;-)
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#14 Mar 03 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Ya festergut is scaring me.

On 10s it looks like we'll need 31.7k DPS from the group. If we can get 2.5k out of the tanks that leaves about 4.5k from the DPS on average. The thing that worries me is that we only have 1 DPS who can do 4.5k at this point...

This was last nights Deathwhisper kill, though without our best DPS. Note the time of death, it's why I'm worried. ;-)

Festergut shouldn't scare you. Saurfang should scare you.

On 10, every time we've gotten less than 5.5k from our top melee and 4k from our top two ranged (counting target switching and moving for roots/traps), we've failed (every extra second blood beasts are alive is a second Saurfang isn't being DPSed by the ranged, and extra chance for someone to slip and give him extra blood). Note that we've failed a few times even getting that, but I'd say it's a requirement for us to succeed. It's a gear wall nonetheless, softer than Rotface/Festergut, but real enough.

That said, I would expect a 232-geared player with, say, 2t9 from badges and a drop from Marrowgar - reasonable for facing bosses 4/5/6 for the first time - to put out that much with 10-man raid buffs.
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#15 Mar 03 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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Deathwhisper is a bad one to compare as you spend so much time running from add to add and people with damage ramp up times (ferals & DoT classes) really struggle on fights with lots of little adds. For melee, Saurfang is more like Patchwerk (or a training dummy really) - you can just stand there and practice your rotation.

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#16 Mar 03 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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Friar RareBeast wrote:
Deathwhisper is a bad one to compare as you spend so much time running from add to add and people with damage ramp up times (ferals & DoT classes) really struggle on fights with lots of little adds. For melee, Saurfang is more like Patchwerk (or a training dummy really) - you can just stand there and practice your rotation.



Deathwhisper may not be optimal to compare but you can easily see the general capability of their dps by looking at the graphs. The target switching isn't the problem here, and in fact the target swaps are the reason the fight has a 10 minute berserk instead of your customary 3-6 minute.
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#17 Mar 04 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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Well, thank god I switched to resto. Looks like gearing up my druid is going to be super easy this time around.

If it has hit/spirit its mine! If it has spirit/haste/crit... It's still mine!
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