Revitalize NumbersFollow

I've followed the arguments back and forth on this spell for a while now. Revitalize continues to be both nearly essential and absolutely worthless in my mind. Some numbers from our last deathwhisper fight (for reference I'm 3/3 in Revitalize):

RJ: 371 mana x 157 casts = 58,247
WG: 643 mana x 16 casts = 10,288
No: 559 mana x 35 casts = 19,565
RG: 719 mana x 13 casts = 9,347
LB: 293 mana x 15 casts = 4,395

total mana used: 101,842
total fight time: 430 seconds

net mana drain = -236 mana/second

Total regen on me due to Revitalize: 4,742 mana
Total regen due to Innervate (for comparison): 6,262 mana

With that consumption rate I get an extra 20 seconds before OOM thanks to revitalize procs.

On one hand Revitalize is nearly worth the same as an Innervate to me mana-wise. Innervate is awesome, but thankfully doesn't cost talent points. In a 7+ minute fight like this one, Revitalize opened up an Innervate for someone to use. On the other hand, I wonder how often am I going to be in that extra 15-30 second window where the extra mana gained is essential to survival? *shrugs* Though I do like having an Innervate to share.

Once again, it seems like it's awesome if we need the mana and worthless if we don't. Or does someone have a better way they weigh this one? Sometimes I feel like I'm buying insurance: spending the extra points on mana-regen I hope I'll never need to use it.

One good thing at least, there's really no other practical places for me to put the talent points atm. ;-)

Oh well sometimes it helps to put your thoughts on paper, or da interwebs as the case may be...

Ugh ya, everyone else, darn them. :p

I started with my own mana usage, simply because I understand how Trees work fairly well. It's easy for me to relate the mana-regen to a usage rate. Since I understand my own options for mana regen reasonably well, I can make a judgment for myself. Something like a rogue/feral is a different story.

I remember those WoLs from EJ as well. They are part of what convinced me to grab it in the first place. Of course I've always had problems making the Regen -> DPS conversion for members of my own raid, as always the devil is in the details.

I can look over my own logs and say in an earlier encounter Rogue 'X' gained 88 energy thanks to revitalize over a 6 minute fight. However changing that into DPS is something I struggle with. It's not that I doubt the EJ numbers, its just my guild is hardly the quality of those guilds. Extra energy for my rogue may very well be more wasted if they are slower to adjust to a changing circumstance and spend more time with full energy. Unfortunately I don't have a way to take that into account easily. :S

Our mage gained some 9k mana, which like you mentioned is an exciting amount of regen. Our holy pally made out well too, though again, I don't think he was pushing his mana limits there. Hunters and ret pallies seemed to get a little at least. Our only 2 Warriors were both tanks, so they weren't having rage issues.

Meh, I'm probably just fretting because I'm getting ready to justify the talent points to another tree in the guild (actually I'm more or less forcing him to take the points if he wants to raid heal for us), and I'm looking for good reasons for justifying it beyond "because EJ said so."

Fun times :-D

Edit: I guess just to clarify the big reason for looking away from the EJ numbers is because most the theory-crafting there revolves around 25-mans. They've gotten better at evaluating 10s as of late but most of the conclusions they come to about builds/talent points etc. is based on 25-man data. The vast majority of what our guild raids is 10s. Weren't not a strict 10s guild per-se, but I don't think you'll find more than a piece or two of 25-man gear amongst the raiders.

So something like Revitalize makes a lot more sense as a 25s guild where your trees are more often locked into a 5x1 rotation for much of their healing. Whereas a 10s guild may be more skeptical of Revitalize's value because there is less spamming of RJ+WG and a higher mix of RG and Nourish. The Deathwhisper fight was about as high as I'd seen my RJ+WG percentage get in a 10s fight, so I was thinking it would be nice place to start evaluating the data. *shrugs* Well it may be just me having the issue. I love the talent, but sometimes I wonder about it. :-)

Edited, Feb 26th 2010 3:30pm by someproteinguy

2/3rds of ferals damage comes from their specials (energy attacks) so they love the energy in particular. Rogues not quite as much as their white damage is a bigger proportion of their damage, so the extra energy isn't quite as good for them (but still good).

Arcane mages can up their mana usage to increase their damage so they love it and are also excellent targets for spare innervates.

Hunters getting extra mana can reduce their time spent in Aspect of the Viper so the get a benefit too.

DPS warriors can always make use of extra rage as well.


Everyone else will depend more on whether they are going OOM or nor - in some cases it could save a wipe by keeping the healers healing, or by allowing DPS to scrape though a DPS race (my guild has had some really close calls!).



Overall, I think it is an easy decision to take it if you are doing 10 or 25mans. If you are only doing heroics it probably isn't that good, but then heroics are easy stuff :)

Do you use the Rapid Rejuv glyph? And if not, using it could give a little better return on Revitalize.

Just tossing that out there.

As a non-Druid, I love you forever when you take it. : )

We haven't had a DK since Naxx for better or for worse. Don't usually have the mage either honestly. Our typical setup is something like:

Tanks:

Prot Pally
Prot Warrior

Heals:

Resto Druid
Holy Pally
Disc Priest - goes shadow on some fights

DPS:

2 x MM Hunter

The last 3 slots vary a lot based on availability, but there's most frequently a boomkin, rogue, and/or ret pally. We'll grab a Warlock or a Mage on occasions as well. Pugging the last slot or two isn't uncommon.

I'm starting to wonder if my view of the talent points is weird because of group makeup though. Many of the classes you guys listed as particularly loving the talent aren't with us on a consistent basis, if at all: DPS Warrior, kitty, Frost DK, rogue, arcane mage *sigh*. Getting a balance of classes in a 10-man always seems to pose a unique challenge. :S

Edited, Mar 2nd 2010 8:17am by someproteinguy

In the end my little debate was between the points in Nature's Grace, Revitalize, and Living Spirit. I had 6 talent points to spend. The debate kind of became moot as I got more haste, and Nature's Grace became less attractive. Living spirit is straight forward, and at that point it kind of came down to a "how much does revitalize increase our DPS?" kind of thing. The points we're an obvious choice for 25s IMO, but for 10s fights where I spend more time using Nourish, we're getting less procs, and it's use seemed a little more debatable. Something like:

-If we're not worried about the enrage timer, does the extra DPS even matter?

-If I'm worried about the tank's health, and I'm not needing mana, do I want to reconsider keeping regen talents?

I'm all for a little extra mana, but after a while it becomes rather pointless. I mean, no reason to stack mp5 if you are already comfortable with their mana pool. I realize it's not exactly the same thing, but boomkins will drop Intensity and Dreamstate after a while ya? ;-) Of course, in hind sight dropping Living Spirit is probably the better choice to drop, but that also would been less throughput as I'd lose a little spellpower. Though I'm surprised how many Trees I see running around with Living Spirit, but not Revitalize...

I'm also looking to justify the talent points to a new member of the guild (he's one of the tree's I mentioned above), so I was playing a little devil's advocate for a bit. Apologies for that, sometimes thinking out loud kind of helps. :S

The other day though, we ended up finishing off Deathwhisper 2 seconds before her enrage went off. I'm sure that will be a good enough example for me to convince the other tree he needs to take those talent points already. ;-)



Edited, Mar 4th 2010 9:43am by someproteinguy

Edited, Mar 4th 2010 9:52am by someproteinguy

What else would you get?

More Nourish talents?

I mean for 10s ya Nourish stuff could easily pull ahead but for 25s when there are always more people to HoT?

Ya, for all the debate above I'm still 3/3 in Revitalize. It seems to be one of those "taking one for the team" kinds of talents. You're giving up some output to boosting the raid's; two steps back so everyone can take one step forward kind of thing.

The "what else would you even take?" question is the killer here. I can see a debate if you are 18/0/53, but then you are probably doing 25s and don't care about the Nourish boosting stuff anyway. Looking back over my debate I more or less came to the conclusion the only time I'd consider dropping the points was:

-when we weren't in danger of reaching the enrage timer
-Myself, and the other healers, weren't mana-limited
-the tank healing was coming up short
-and the raid healing wasn't a problem.

Even in that case I'd probably end up staying at least 2/3 in Revitalize and shifting my 2 floater points (the ones that end up in weird places like improved barkskin, tranquil spirit, etc.) in order to take up Nature's Grace.

Of course, like I mentioned, this all became moot once I got enough haste that the Nature's Grace points weren't as attractive for Nourish chaining anymore. At this point, (and as others have mentioned) in a 11/0/60 build, I really struggle to see where else I'd put those points for 10-man raiding.

Also I love the quality of the debate in that thread: