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#1 Feb 26 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Good
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I didn't see a thread to discuss any of this, and now that I've finally hit EJ and the Oboards, I'm curious about your take on the changes. I'm gonna bring em up by section on the patch notes. Basically, I'm gonna post my take on these after what I've read and see if you all can point out what I'm missing or am just plain wrong on.

Quote:
* Icy Touch: This ability now causes a very high amount of threat while the death knight is in Frost Presence.
* Rune of Razorice: Now stacks 5 stacks of 2% Frost Vulnerability instead of 10 stacks of 1% Frost Vulnerability. Proc chance changed to 100%.

On the first, reports are that the threat is roughly 7x the damage done. A lot of discussion I'm reading is suggesting that it's probably too good, since a lot of bad tanks will be chaingunning it in order to make up for their lackluster threat ability. Still, I'm excited. We'll finally have a great snap aggro tool, and one that can be used at a distance.

As for the second, it's a pretty straightforward buff to DW frost and, while cool, not all that interesting.


Quote:
o Blood

+ Abomination's Might: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc on certain strikes. Rank 1 is 5% attack power and Rank 2 is 10% attack power. The self strength buff remains unchanged.
+ Will of the Necropolis: There is no longer a cooldown on the frequency at which this talent can be activated. In addition, this ability can now also be triggered by damage which deals less than 5% of your health.

The first is again just a straightforward buff. Awesome, but not interesting.

The second is much more interesting. This is a huge buff to blood tanks, and if I'm understanding what I"m reading it'll actually be better than Ardent Defender(when the heal's not up) because of the difference in the way they calculate damage reduction(AD reduces all damage after the 35% health threshold by 20%from the strike whereas WotN reduces the entire strike by 15%).


Quote:
o Frost
+ Endless Winter: No longer causes Frost Fever to be applied by Chains of Ice, but instead grants 2/4% strength. The previous functionality of this talent can now be attained via the Glyph of Chains of Ice.
+ Improved Icy Talons: This effect is now passive instead of being a proc. The self haste buff remains unchanged.
+ Nerves of Cold Steel: Now increases off-hand damage by 8/16/25%, up from 5/10/15%.
+ Unbreakable Armor: The amount of strength granted is now 20%, up from 10%.

The first is an overall buff to frost builds. Kinda awesome.

The second basically makes a DK into a walking WF totem, removing the ability of the effect to fall. Pretty spiffy.

The third, a rather huge DW buff.

The fourth, an extremely nice buff to Frost DPS in general. Not sure how this CD will match up with the cooldowns from other specs, but it's rather sweet.

Quote:
o Unholy
+ Scourge Strike: Now deals 70% weapon damage, plus 12% of physical damage done as shadow damage for each of the death knight's diseases on the target. The net result should be larger strikes with no diseases present, while maximum damage with all diseases applied to the target should stay the same.

A nice PvP buff, but unnecessary considering other changes incoming(ones not in the patch notes I read). Also has the added effect of making ArP even more interesting for Unholy. Can't wait to see how this one plays out.

And that other change not included on the patch notes?

Quote:
Unholy Blight now prevents any diseases on the victim from being dispelled.

PvP Frost DKs are tearing their hair out in jealousy.
#2 Feb 26 2010 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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My immediate thought about these changes, is that they seem to be trying to edge us closer to being more adequate tanks while frost specced/presence.

As far as the unholy change, in one aspect, it appears that they are trying to make the below average player (who fails to apply all, or only some) disease, able to increase their DPS slightly. I'm not sure what their reasoning for making that change is, but needless to say, it's a benefit, so I'm not comlaining.
#3 Feb 26 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
I'm more excited about the change to IT and tanking. I never got into tanking, I always seemed to lose hate so I gave up on it.
This may motivate me into getting a Tank spec, and maybe actually learning how to tank as a DK.
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#4 Feb 26 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
@Icy Touch > We already had a really good aoe snap aggro, blood boil (BB + DnD then do rotation and you usually won't lose aggro). However, having an ability I can spam to generate threat is WONDERFUL. I also like the fact that it's not using a blood rune, meaning you can't just spam that and only that to tank, you need to use other runes to maintain blade barrier, but if someone's getting close to you, you can mash this to get ahead a bit. My guild has REALLY good dps and it takes 100% of my focus just to do enough threat to where I don't lose aggro (even then..)

@Razorice > This isn't a buff since overall it does the same thing it did before, but it means that on fights you're switching targets mid-fight (eg. slimes on Putricide) your dps isn't totally going to suck. However if you really cared about dps, you're not going to be frost anyway.

@Abomb Might > This is good, it means there is no more advantage to having a MM hunter over a blood DK since their aura is 'always on.' Not ground-breaking though.

@WotN > WOOT just WOOT. I liked blood before, I now like blood tanking WAY more now.

@Endless Winter > It's a buff to frost dps, but I'll hold my judgment to see if this finally gives frost a chance to catch up in dps. I still feel frost is way too much RNG-based to be any good. (I did 11k dps in toc one week on twins, then 4k on the same fight same gear the next week)

@Imp Icy Talons/Nerves of Cold Steel/Unbreakable Armor > pretty much the same as above, I'll hold my comment to see if it actually makes frost decent.

@Scourge Strike > Huge buff if you think how much it now scales with arp. It's got all the plusses of blood's physical damage, with the advantages of being able to do magic damage. I don't think this will buff PvP too much just because SS hits like a wet noodle right now anyway, so it'll just be a slightly stiffer wet noodle, I imagine.

@Unholy Blight > Considering many DKs just chains of ice and death coil spam this actually makes using diseases a little better in PvP.
#5 Feb 26 2010 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Overall, a lot of really nice changes.

As for the WotN buff, it IS really nice. But, if I had a choice, I'd still take Argent Defender, just because it can save your life (which I've seen happen a lot now that I've been playing my Mage).

Still, it's great to see a patch that does nothing but buff. I would have liked to see them do something INTERESTING with Unholy Blight (pretty please gimme back the AoE!).

Still, I'm happy. Maybe I'll start trying Blood tanking and actually play my DK more.

[EDIT]

Quote:
Now deals 70% weapon damage, plus 12% of physical damage done as shadow damage for each of the death knight's diseases on the target. The net result should be larger strikes with no diseases present, while maximum damage with all diseases applied to the target should stay the same.


I'm actually really worried about this. Sure, it makes ArP more valuable. But you need to have enough ArP to make a boss mitigate 13% less for it to break even with the current SS. I'm not sure how much that is. Maybe I'll look it up later.

[EDIT2]

It's actually not 13%. I don't know what the actual number is. I'll do some math later.

Edited, Feb 26th 2010 5:31pm by idiggory
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#6 Feb 26 2010 at 11:23 PM Rating: Good
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Im curious about the new Frost DPS build... If I wanted to put points into that 4% strength I would be losing points in Necrosis from the Unholy tree which makes me worry it might just balance out my dps. The increase to offhand damage is huge because im fairly certain that applies to your Strike damage as well.
#7 Feb 27 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Im curious about the new Frost DPS build... If I wanted to put points into that 4% strength I would be losing points in Necrosis from the Unholy tree which makes me worry it might just balance out my dps. The increase to offhand damage is huge because im fairly certain that applies to your Strike damage as well.


You'd lose BCB, assuming you aren't using a threat-reducing build.
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#8 Feb 27 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dilbrt wrote:
@Razorice > This isn't a buff since overall it does the same thing it did before, but it means that on fights you're switching targets mid-fight (eg. slimes on Putricide) your dps isn't totally going to suck. However if you really cared about dps, you're not going to be frost anyway.

As anyone who has ever played a fire mage can tell you, any time you can put up the same exact debuff faster, it's a buff. Smiley: tongue
#9 Feb 27 2010 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

As anyone who has ever played a fire mage can tell you, any time you can put up the same exact debuff faster, it's a buff.


To be fair, this isn't saving any GCDs, so it's an extremely minor buff.
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#10 Feb 27 2010 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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I have to say that I'm very happy about all the changes. I especially looking forward to seeing if DW frost becomes a competitive dps spec because when leveling, I really enjoyed Frost but it just wasn't as god as Unholy or Blood in terms of survival or efficiency =/
#11 Feb 27 2010 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
kisherprice wrote:
I have to say that I'm very happy about all the changes. I especially looking forward to seeing if DW frost becomes a competitive dps spec because when leveling, I really enjoyed Frost but it just wasn't as god as Unholy or Blood in terms of survival or efficiency =/


I still have yet to see a time when DWing is a better solution. I maintain that the class was designed as a 2h class, just with DW thrown in for some flavor (go read some LK beta blue posts, if they're still around). If you really want a clear and specific case as to why you should want to stick to 2h, just go have a conversation with an enhancement shaman that has done Sindragosa. Heck, go to their forums on alla and just simply ask "How was dpsing on Sindragosa?" While *I* on the other hand am surprised when I have to stop dps a single time. Since Blizzard loves to reuse boss mechanics, expect to see it again and again in the future.
#12 Feb 28 2010 at 12:36 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
Quote:

As anyone who has ever played a fire mage can tell you, any time you can put up the same exact debuff faster, it's a buff.


To be fair, this isn't saving any GCDs, so it's an extremely minor buff.

Well, yeah, but a buff is a buff. Smiley: tongue
#13 Feb 28 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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I hate to be the one to say it, but my first reaction to the patch notes was "this is all going to be nerfed."

Haven't we all been teased often enough by Blizzard only to see our hopes fall flat on the filthy ground as they dig their heels into our shattered hearts and giggle like Tazmanian school children while wringing their dry, well-manicured hands?

Give it some time before we all start slapping each other on the back. Let us just see how this all plays out.






But HOLY CRAP if they don't nerf this stuff!!!! What fun! Especially for those of us still loyal to Frost as the One True Wayâ„¢. =)
#14 Mar 01 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
one true way to last on the dps charts unless the stars align.
#15 Mar 01 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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You know, I actually didn't mind DKs the last patch or so. All the specs were viable, even if certain ones did have a clear performance bonus. Even DW Frost, while being the lowest DpS spec, still did enough that you COULD do it (and it would be helpful overall if you didn't have an enh Shaman in the raid).

I really liked where we were. It felt good.

Now, we are going to start doing the roller coaster thing again, which I hate. >.<

But, yeah, these buffs are WAY too good to be true. Frost gets 4% more strength, 20% Haste AND 10% more damage to their Off-hand, which may function with strikes, AND they get their CD buffed?

Lol, yeah right.

I still thing SS just got nerfed though. I still have yet to do the math, because calculating ArP worth is a pain in the *** (I'd have to research boss armor levels, toon ArP levels, and how those two correlate).

Either way, a lot of Unholy DKs are going to see their DpS drop come patch, because they weren't giving ArP a high EP value.
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#16 Mar 03 2010 at 6:21 AM Rating: Good
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Dual Wield may be slightly less DPS than the other specs, but it isnt as bad as others make out on this board.

Maybe I am just better than anyone on my realm, but on all the raids I have done, the only time a DK has ever out dpsed me was when he was about 600 gearscore ahead of me. I also consistently come in the top 5 for 25 man raids and top 3 in 10 mans. If these buffs work out as hoped I will be doing even better.
#17 Mar 03 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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EbanySalamonderiel wrote:
Maybe I am just better than anyone on my realm, but on all the raids I have done, the only time a DK has ever out dpsed me was when he was about 600 gearscore ahead of me. I also consistently come in the top 5 for 25 man raids and top 3 in 10 mans. If these buffs work out as hoped I will be doing even better.

Are you including multi-mob trash or straight up boss fights?
#18 Mar 03 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
EbanySalamonderiel wrote:
Dual Wield may be slightly less DPS than the other specs, but it isnt as bad as others make out on this board.


As far as I'm concerned a little less dps and a lot less dps are both in the "less dps" category and so do me no good. When you do fights were your dps REALLY matters (as in your guild is progressing on a dps fight) you do anything you can to increase your dps, and if DW is less, then you should never spec it.
#19 Mar 03 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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Interesting thing: It seems Unholy subbing Frost is now superior to Unholy subbing Blood. That's gonna be interesting. Though /Blood will probably remain better at lower gear levels, due to Bladed Armor scaling off armor where Endless Winter depends on your Strength.

Too bad they changed SS to only do 36% magic instead of 70%. That would have been dead sexy with Black Ice.

Also, on a fight where you won't get hit and don't have anything to give you additional RP (like a Druid), Glyph of Blood Strike is preferred. But DD will be superior if you have additional RP giving you more casts.
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#20 Mar 03 2010 at 8:33 PM Rating: Good
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Dilbrt wrote:
EbanySalamonderiel wrote:
Dual Wield may be slightly less DPS than the other specs, but it isnt as bad as others make out on this board.


As far as I'm concerned a little less dps and a lot less dps are both in the "less dps" category and so do me no good. When you do fights were your dps REALLY matters (as in your guild is progressing on a dps fight) you do anything you can to increase your dps, and if DW is less, then you should never spec it.


Sad.

Why not just roll the top DPS class and go to town if essentially the play style doesn't matter? Oh, wait, let me guess. You went Death Knight because of the buffs?
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#21 Mar 03 2010 at 8:39 PM Rating: Good
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The funny thing with DKs right now is that both Unholy and Blood perform very well, and the top DpS flip-flops according to your own gear. I'm pretty sure, with the game in it's current state with BiS gear, Unholy wins. I'm also thinking the difference is by, like, 50 DpS.

One thing I really like about Unholy is that it is one of the few classes that truly brings something unique to a raid. We are the only ones that can easily give +11% to every target with little effort and no DpS sacrifice. But we ALSO get to increase all disease damage, which is a nice buff to all other DKs and SPriests.

I'd never say no to one in a raid. +3% damage, +haste and +10% AP can be provided by other classes. Diseases buffs can't.

*Note* According to EJ, if EBP is on a target, it will increase Priest DpS by 5-10%. That's pretty damn nice.
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#22 Mar 03 2010 at 11:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dilbert wrote:

As far as I'm concerned a little less dps and a lot less dps are both in the "less dps" category and so do me no good.


Well, it's comparative. Kiz got her rusted proto-drake mostly as Frost with alternating Blood and Unholy second builds (for raid composition and specific mechanics). One thing my 10-man hard mode group did very well was organize around rDPS rather than personal, and I think it's important to keep that in mind when we talk about "best", "optimal", "BiS", etc.

But even if I admit that Frost is the lowest available theoretical personal single-target DPS build, it's still very good when played right and the variance between the current DPS builds would only be a concern to me for hard modes, not regular raiding. And absolutely not for PUG raiding which is what most players have available.

Remember that it's not only hardcore progression raiders that read these forums. Actually I'd bet that those players are in the minority here. So it's only fair that we present our information and opinions with all caveats and situational reminders. Less chance we'll offer bad advice to someone that way. =)
#23 Mar 04 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
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As one of those PUG raiders, I've found Unholy to do pretty well in AOE situations. The T9 4-piece seems to be created with Wandering Plague in mind. For heroics, I strongly recommend Frost for the AOE burst damage. It's not uncommon for me to push 4-5k DPS on a pull at 4500-4700 GearScore. And it just goes up the more mobs you have (until >10 mobs).

Blood is not something I'd recommend to the regular Joe doing heroics and the occasional PUG raid. I'm currently wearing a mix of T9 and emblem gear and I've only got about 150 ArPen. Unless you start actively looking for it (through Rogue gear, shudder), you're not going to see a lot unless you raid much.

And with one-handed weapons being so easy to find these days (Nighttime (axe) from heroic Forge of Souls, Ghoulslicer (sword) from Halls of Reflection and Black Icicle (mace) from heroic Halls of Reflection), it's not really difficult to get two ilvl 232/219 weapons. I've had surprisingly little trouble getting the one-handers I've needed on. Fury Warriors go for two-handers, Rogues seem to fancy daggers more and Hunters, from what I've seen, want to run around with polearms. If you're looking for a two-hander like Tyrannical Beheader (axe), you'll have to fight Arms and Fury Warriors, Retribution Paladins and other Death Knights for it.

Edit: If you've got an Enhancement Shaman in your party, you might have to compete for the axe/mace, though Enhancement Shaman in PUGs seem to be a rarity.

Edited, Mar 4th 2010 7:16am by Mazra
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#24 Mar 04 2010 at 12:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
Blood is not something I'd recommend to the regular Joe doing heroics and the occasional PUG raid. I'm currently wearing a mix of T9 and emblem gear and I've only got about 150 ArPen. Unless you start actively looking for it (through Rogue gear, shudder), you're not going to see a lot unless you raid much.

My DK is up around 450 or so ArP and I've only really begun to gear her up(at least, her DPS set) with no rogue gear in the set(unless you count the one neckpiece). She should be at about 600 or so when I'm through with heroic loot(not counting the needle scorpion trinket proc).

TherionSaysWhat, Assassin Reject wrote:
Remember that it's not only hardcore progression raiders that read these forums. Actually I'd bet that those players are in the minority here. So it's only fair that we present our information and opinions with all caveats and situational reminders. Less chance we'll offer bad advice to someone that way. =)
I'd bet that you're probably right. The more hardcore folks tend to gravitate to EJ and the Oboards. We tend to have mostly solid, middle of the road folks here.
#25 Mar 04 2010 at 2:42 AM Rating: Decent
Mazra wrote:
Why not just roll the top DPS class and go to town if essentially the play style doesn't matter? Oh, wait, let me guess. You went Death Knight because of the buffs?


I am constantly top 3 dps and have been since naxx. I have flip-flopped specs with the changes to give my guild the best possible DK I can be, to do anything less would be short-changing my guild. And no, I didn't roll DK just for the changes I was a DK from the first month of the pre-LK beta and didn't even touch another character on my account until almost 6 months after LK was out. The only thing I knowingly do that lowers my dps is the choice I made of professions (I'm enchant/scribe), and even then I'm constantly giving thought to switching just so I can get that tiny bit of extra dps.

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TherionSaysWhat, Assassin Reject wrote:
Remember that it's not only hardcore progression raiders that read these forums. Actually I'd bet that those players are in the minority here. So it's only fair that we present our information and opinions with all caveats and situational reminders. Less chance we'll offer bad advice to someone that way. =)
I'd bet that you're probably right. The more hardcore folks tend to gravitate to EJ and the Oboards. We tend to have mostly solid, middle of the road folks here.


I have been using alla since I played FFXI years ago, and I know that I'm in the minority, I always have been (I remember writing a pre-kara holy paladin guide when I was in mostly tier 5), but I've always had a soft spot for alla, and hopefully always will.

Edited, Mar 4th 2010 3:45am by Dilbrt
#26 Mar 04 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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Dilbrt wrote:
Mazra wrote:
Why not just roll the top DPS class and go to town if essentially the play style doesn't matter? Oh, wait, let me guess. You went Death Knight because of the buffs?


I am constantly top 3 dps and have been since naxx. I have flip-flopped specs with the changes to give my guild the best possible DK I can be, to do anything less would be short-changing my guild.


My point being that if you play your class to please the guild, wouldn't you please them even more by playing a class with better DPS capabilities? In other words, are you Top 3 DPS because of the class or because you're awesome? If the latter, could you do more DPS by applying said awesome to another class?

Edit: Okay, that came out wrong. It sounds like I'm trying to get rid of you which I'm not. I'm just curious what drove you to play a Death Knight when your top priority seems to be to perform well (overall) in your guild. I'm of the opposite mindset, I guess. While I strive to do my best, I also admit that I'm playing because of me. I guess I'm a bit selfish, but I'd never find (and never have found) myself to enjoy a game where I had to perform well to please others. I just happen to find guilds where I, thanks to the general knowledge I've gained here over the years, am able to perform above standard.

Edited, Mar 4th 2010 7:13pm by Mazra
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