Anobix pointed this out on the main page thread, but I thought IA deserved a decent burial here.
The proposed 3.3.3 changes make IA only count for wards and mage shields.
Yeah, they removed the cap on how much spellpower it can provide, but... right now, with the 5% health cap, a shield would have to adsorb over 8000 damage to hit the cap. That's way over what our shields and wards do right now, so it's a non-issue.
There appears to be some hope the talent will rise again on EJ as it's a "fun" talent. Right now, if there's not a disc. priest with us, it's really only occasionally useful. I think the only time it's worth 3 talent points is on Sindragosa for me (that is, even without a disc. priest).
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IA, we hardly knew yeFollow
Exactly. Basically the talent is getting the treatment. It is pretty unfortunate to see a remotely interesting ability get turned into a niche ability used in a handful of fights.
I just hope to be done with ICC before this happens so I can truly enjoy my time on blood queen with it.
GC wrote:
To the ground, baby!
I just hope to be done with ICC before this happens so I can truly enjoy my time on blood queen with it.
Yeah, this is pretty depressing. At least my fellow mage got to top the charts on our Sindy kill tonite. It'll be interesting to see how the other changes work out, though.
Nerfing Arcane, buffing frost.
It's like they actually make this game JUST for me!
It's like they actually make this game JUST for me!
I just found out about this little talent from Anobix...
I just read the thread on EJ about it! This sucks...
I just read the thread on EJ about it! This sucks...
Got only 1 talentpoint in IA active, so not sure how big the dmg-nerf will be.
What could be interesting is the Frostbolt-Buff. It might become the newest standard-spec for raiders? I'll go and read some more about it...
What could be interesting is the Frostbolt-Buff. It might become the newest standard-spec for raiders? I'll go and read some more about it...
I doubt it will surpass a geared arcane mage that knows how to play one, but I'm sure it will bring it closer to contention.
I'm thinking of changing my build to include IA now (I'm still running heroics on my Mage). Depending on when the patch hits, I may keep it.
Atm, I spend a lot of time with Mana Shield or Wards up, because I only have 16K health (and some healers really suck). I can die to DoTs if they don't watch me, not to mention bosses that target random things.
It would be kinda nice if the mana I lose to my shield would be turned into SOME damage.
Of course, my shield only absorbs about 3K damage. So that's only 150 SP per point, but still...
Plus, I am way over the hit cap for the content I am doing (I have 10% with gear, plus 6% with talents, when I'm currently only doing Heroics...) So I have points to spare.
Atm, I spend a lot of time with Mana Shield or Wards up, because I only have 16K health (and some healers really suck). I can die to DoTs if they don't watch me, not to mention bosses that target random things.
It would be kinda nice if the mana I lose to my shield would be turned into SOME damage.
Of course, my shield only absorbs about 3K damage. So that's only 150 SP per point, but still...
Plus, I am way over the hit cap for the content I am doing (I have 10% with gear, plus 6% with talents, when I'm currently only doing Heroics...) So I have points to spare.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
I dunno Anobix, I'm pretty close to any arcanes I've come across at my gear level as it is (strict 10m, no access to VoA even).
When I play without IA on an arcane spec, it's only around 200 DPS more than my Frost set. I believe IA is worth more than people are thinking it is.
When I play without IA on an arcane spec, it's only around 200 DPS more than my Frost set. I believe IA is worth more than people are thinking it is.
There's one problem I have with Frost that makes me hesitant to use it even if the predicted max DpS is above Arcane (by a small margin at least). It's just so RNG dependent.
What do I mean?
Deep Freeze and Brain Freeze, essentially. The first is very important to your DpS, despite only being usable every 30 seconds. However, just because it is theoretically usable, doesn't mean you can actually USE it. When I was leveling, there were 1+ minute boss fights where I didn't get a single FoF proc. Or I'd get one at the start of the fight (use BF) then get 3 more well before BF was back up, and then none for the rest.
On top of that, Crit BF vs. Non-crit BF is a substantial change in DpS. At 79, my FB crits did less than a non-crit BF. So, even if you get 3 or 4 BFs in a fight, your DpS will fluctuate a lot depending on how many are crits.
Same thing with Brain Freeze (which is now a solid DpS upgrade at all gear levels, I'm sure, due to FFB getting all your +% frost bonuses).
But this is partially why it is so hard to give Frost an actual expected DpS. It depends too much on chance.
If you like a proc-based play style, and don't mind large fluctuations, it won't matter of course. But I can't stand that. It's one thing to have some chance, such as with crits, but to be so dependent...
What do I mean?
Deep Freeze and Brain Freeze, essentially. The first is very important to your DpS, despite only being usable every 30 seconds. However, just because it is theoretically usable, doesn't mean you can actually USE it. When I was leveling, there were 1+ minute boss fights where I didn't get a single FoF proc. Or I'd get one at the start of the fight (use BF) then get 3 more well before BF was back up, and then none for the rest.
On top of that, Crit BF vs. Non-crit BF is a substantial change in DpS. At 79, my FB crits did less than a non-crit BF. So, even if you get 3 or 4 BFs in a fight, your DpS will fluctuate a lot depending on how many are crits.
Same thing with Brain Freeze (which is now a solid DpS upgrade at all gear levels, I'm sure, due to FFB getting all your +% frost bonuses).
But this is partially why it is so hard to give Frost an actual expected DpS. It depends too much on chance.
If you like a proc-based play style, and don't mind large fluctuations, it won't matter of course. But I can't stand that. It's one thing to have some chance, such as with crits, but to be so dependent...
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Personally, I'd have rather seen a talented CD reduction on DF than a damage increase to FrB.
Did you mention that your Brain Freeze fireballs do more than your frost bolt crits? That shouldn't be possible if you're specced right. My BF crits do around 5-6K, my frostbolts do that much on a non crit. As a matter of fact, I don't even put brain freeze in my rotation (this MAY change with it allowing the use of FFB), as it's a terrible DPS loss.
A non-glyphed Ice Lance, when cast on the tail end of a FoF (the only place that you would use your BF proc unless movement is concerned), still hits for the same amount as the brain freeze FB.
Frost is luck based, and that is a very good reason why it's more engaging than Arcane, but I don't believe it's to the degree that you think. I can count, on one hand, the number of times in a boss fight that I had Deep Freeze off cooldown, but didn't have a FoF up.
The BIG problem with frost isn't luck, it's that you STILL have to use a gimmick to get max DPS out of it. Despite all of Blizzard's claims and attempts to change it, you can STILL ghost your Ice Lance / Deep Freeze onto the end of your second FoF cast. The window to do it in is now TINY, and a spec shouldn't have to rely on a gimmick. At least it's viable for raiding now, though.
Did you mention that your Brain Freeze fireballs do more than your frost bolt crits? That shouldn't be possible if you're specced right. My BF crits do around 5-6K, my frostbolts do that much on a non crit. As a matter of fact, I don't even put brain freeze in my rotation (this MAY change with it allowing the use of FFB), as it's a terrible DPS loss.
A non-glyphed Ice Lance, when cast on the tail end of a FoF (the only place that you would use your BF proc unless movement is concerned), still hits for the same amount as the brain freeze FB.
Frost is luck based, and that is a very good reason why it's more engaging than Arcane, but I don't believe it's to the degree that you think. I can count, on one hand, the number of times in a boss fight that I had Deep Freeze off cooldown, but didn't have a FoF up.
The BIG problem with frost isn't luck, it's that you STILL have to use a gimmick to get max DPS out of it. Despite all of Blizzard's claims and attempts to change it, you can STILL ghost your Ice Lance / Deep Freeze onto the end of your second FoF cast. The window to do it in is now TINY, and a spec shouldn't have to rely on a gimmick. At least it's viable for raiding now, though.
IA adds probably 500 DPS (conservative estimate) for a mage with a disc priest around. It looks like with the changes Frost and Arcane will be closer, with Frost just a few percentage points behind arcane. There's no doubt that skill (using cooldowns properly, having a large time on boss, no pointless deaths...) can make more difference than the spec difference does, even now.
There's a thread on EJ on raiding as frost which is pretty good, and optimistic.
My problem is pet management, I'm just not good at it.
Blizzard's problem is they never got frost mages to seriously test content. Sindragosa is a fight that seems like frost should dominate due to 100% elemental uptime (in 10 man, at least, I end up doing virtually no damage due to the debuff ~30% of the time), but frost tombs are immune to Deep Freeze damage. There's no good reason why it should be that way, but that lowers frost DPS considerably on that fight. Managing those frost tombs in the third phase and getting them burned down quickly is the only hard part of the fight (once you learn to sit on your hands during Unchained Magic)... annoying that they would do that, but they may still not know it's a problem.
There's a thread on EJ on raiding as frost which is pretty good, and optimistic.
My problem is pet management, I'm just not good at it.
Blizzard's problem is they never got frost mages to seriously test content. Sindragosa is a fight that seems like frost should dominate due to 100% elemental uptime (in 10 man, at least, I end up doing virtually no damage due to the debuff ~30% of the time), but frost tombs are immune to Deep Freeze damage. There's no good reason why it should be that way, but that lowers frost DPS considerably on that fight. Managing those frost tombs in the third phase and getting them burned down quickly is the only hard part of the fight (once you learn to sit on your hands during Unchained Magic)... annoying that they would do that, but they may still not know it's a problem.
Quote:
Personally, I'd have rather seen a talented CD reduction on DF than a damage increase to FrB.
Did you mention that your Brain Freeze fireballs do more than your frost bolt crits? That shouldn't be possible if you're specced right. My BF crits do around 5-6K, my frostbolts do that much on a non crit. As a matter of fact, I don't even put brain freeze in my rotation (this MAY change with it allowing the use of FFB), as it's a terrible DPS loss.
A non-glyphed Ice Lance, when cast on the tail end of a FoF (the only place that you would use your BF proc unless movement is concerned), still hits for the same amount as the brain freeze FB.
Frost is luck based, and that is a very good reason why it's more engaging than Arcane, but I don't believe it's to the degree that you think. I can count, on one hand, the number of times in a boss fight that I had Deep Freeze off cooldown, but didn't have a FoF up.
The BIG problem with frost isn't luck, it's that you STILL have to use a gimmick to get max DPS out of it. Despite all of Blizzard's claims and attempts to change it, you can STILL ghost your Ice Lance / Deep Freeze onto the end of your second FoF cast. The window to do it in is now TINY, and a spec shouldn't have to rely on a gimmick. At least it's viable for raiding now, though.
Did you mention that your Brain Freeze fireballs do more than your frost bolt crits? That shouldn't be possible if you're specced right. My BF crits do around 5-6K, my frostbolts do that much on a non crit. As a matter of fact, I don't even put brain freeze in my rotation (this MAY change with it allowing the use of FFB), as it's a terrible DPS loss.
A non-glyphed Ice Lance, when cast on the tail end of a FoF (the only place that you would use your BF proc unless movement is concerned), still hits for the same amount as the brain freeze FB.
Frost is luck based, and that is a very good reason why it's more engaging than Arcane, but I don't believe it's to the degree that you think. I can count, on one hand, the number of times in a boss fight that I had Deep Freeze off cooldown, but didn't have a FoF up.
The BIG problem with frost isn't luck, it's that you STILL have to use a gimmick to get max DPS out of it. Despite all of Blizzard's claims and attempts to change it, you can STILL ghost your Ice Lance / Deep Freeze onto the end of your second FoF cast. The window to do it in is now TINY, and a spec shouldn't have to rely on a gimmick. At least it's viable for raiding now, though.
I may have screwed up somewhere. Points I wanted to make:
1. DF hits harder as a non-crit than a crit Frostbolt (so, it is at least > than 2 Frost bolts).
2. At my gear levels Casting an instant Fireball is a damage boost over casting a full-time Frost bolt (meaning, when I don't have IV or Heroism up). The exception is if I am in a window where a FoF proc from a Frost bolt would allow me to use Deep Freeze (so, say 2 seconds to CD being up and whenever it IS up--maybe more, maybe less).
3. Once this patch hits, and you can use BF for FFB casts, it'll definitely be a damage boost (because you get all the +frost damage talents, and it already has the non-talented Frost bolt SP coefficient)
So, for me right now, the spec is very much about procs. And I hate that. I like Arcane in that, while it still has an aspect of luck (when you will get an Mbarr proc?) it is much less based on that to squeeze out your damage. Of course, it factors in elsewhere (if you, say, get most of your crits on ABx0 casts rather than ABx4 casts). But my play style doesn't have to revolve around chance completely. It's why I don't like DpS Frost as a DK, and that's less proc-heavy than Frost.
I DO like getting the elemental (especially when out solo, since it will kill things that are low enough I don't want to waste the mana OR the time to wand it to death).
Personally, I'd love if they'd make the WE a fairly weak Mage spell (rather than a talent) that just got heavy buffs from Frost (and the Eternal Water glyph would be a high-level talent). Of course, it would kinda snap at the heals of Mirror Image, so they'd have to make it more unique than it is now. Since WCIII, the elemental is just something I equate with Mages.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
At least it's viable for raiding now, though.
I wish. And, well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "viable." To most people, I think "viable" means that you can keep up with other mages. When I switched to arcane, I really really didn't want to (same for when I switched from frost to fire), but there was just no way I could compete with the arcane mages as fire. In a progression guild, that'd mean I'd be sat and/or lose my raiding spot. So, while frost will do the minimum amount of damage to kill some of the bosses, it's not considered viable by the people who control who gets to raid. I think you said you are in a 10man casual guild, so you get to go with your spec of choice, and I envy you that, but since I want to raid 25man progression, frost, for me, isn't viable. It would be good if it were, though. I miss it. I imagine I'd be pretty rusty with it, though, since I haven't used it for other than pvp since not long after WOTLK came out. Was fun on Medium Mode Iron Council and General Vezax, though! :)
There's an interesting conversation going on about it on EJ, though, about why they'd announce that IA will only work with the wards, mana shield and ice barrier. Ice barrier? And IA? Really?
hmmm....
Why wouldn't they include Ice Barrier?
A. You CAN get both talents.
B. It may not be PvE viable, but it could always be a PvP spec.
C. Even if it isn't viable currently for either specs, Cata will give us 5 more points. If the trees aren't shuffled TOO much, it may end up as a decent spec for SOMETHING. Of course, it may still be useless.
D. Even if it isn't viable, and Blizz has no specific plans to make viable for Cata, why not? It works with all of our other shields, should it NOT work with this one? That would just be stupid.
E. 5 more points in Cata would give you an elemental. Taking IA would cost you DF and 5% on your frost bolt, but it could POTENTIALLY be worthwhile. At least for soloing.
A. You CAN get both talents.
B. It may not be PvE viable, but it could always be a PvP spec.
C. Even if it isn't viable currently for either specs, Cata will give us 5 more points. If the trees aren't shuffled TOO much, it may end up as a decent spec for SOMETHING. Of course, it may still be useless.
D. Even if it isn't viable, and Blizz has no specific plans to make viable for Cata, why not? It works with all of our other shields, should it NOT work with this one? That would just be stupid.
E. 5 more points in Cata would give you an elemental. Taking IA would cost you DF and 5% on your frost bolt, but it could POTENTIALLY be worthwhile. At least for soloing.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Trilliandent wrote:
I wish. And, well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "viable." To most people, I think "viable" means that you can keep up with other mages.
This is precisely what I mean. Arcane is literally within 500 DPS of frost in the exact same gear, for me. A wisely played Frost is quite the deadly mage.
On a slightly related note, who'd have thunk that Fire would be the ******* child of mage specs at the end of LK?
jaysgsl wrote:
On a slightly related note, who'd have thunk that Fire would be the ******* child of mage specs at the end of LK?
I think you're still going to see more fire mages than frost in raids. If you want to top the overall damage done meters, fire can do that for you pretty easily, you'll just be behind on the bosses. Some raid leaders don't pay attention to those kind of details. And not everyone is going to be able to switch over to a frost raid spec and be great at it.
But yeah, it is odd what happened with fire. It seems like they had it in a great balance/competition with arcane, then just kind of... got lost.
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