So, since my Mage is soon to be 80, I've been doing some research into the various Arcane rotations and their mana use over time. The ones that seem to be in use now (though I'm confused here, because the rotations section in the EJ Arcane Thread doesn't seem to have been updated recently from what I can tell) are:
ABx3 [mbarr] or Abarr (cast 3 ABs, then an AM if you got the proc or ABarr if you didn't)
ABx4 [mbarr] or Abarr (same as the last, but you use an additional AB before AM/ABarr)
ABx3+ [mbarr] (cast AB until you get an mbarr proc)
ABx4 AM (Use AM after every 4th AB).
Now, I'm sure that 2pc T10 has some effect on these, probably in the favor of AB3+, since consuming mbarr will make your next 4 ABs come 12% faster, but I'm not anywhere near there yet.
When starting, I plan to use the first rotation, since it is the best DpM to DpS ratio for while mana may be an issue.
What I'm wondering is how many people use AB3+ and fish for Mbarr procs, and how many just use a more standard rotation? Do you include ABarr in it at all, or do you just use that when you are forced to move? AB3+ seems to have the highest potential DpS by a good margin, but it is also very RNG dependent (which is something I generally don't like) as someone on the EJ Arcane thread reported having to go ABx11 before getting their Mbarr proc. That both kills their mana and (obviously) makes their 2pc bonus useless during that period. I'm sure the DpS wasn't much lower than the other rotations (maybe it was still higher, IDK), but I don't like the idea of being bottom tier DpS because my proc rate was sucking.
So, really, I'm looking to see which the mages here use (or if they go for something else) and what their gear levels are. :-)
Plus, you know, 3 days is an unacceptable amount of time for there not to be a new post here.
-Side question that doesn't deserve it's own thread-
What is your AoE rotation for trash? FS 8+7-->Blizz?
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Do you Fish for Procs (Arcane Thread)Follow
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
The rotations with Abarr are very out of date. You are better off clearing your AB stacks with AM than Abarr.
Pre-2pcT10 I was using a strict (or relatively, depending on fight length/mana left) ABx4-AM, pretty must casting AM every time I had 4 stacks regardless of proc. If I was moving and the stacks were going to fall off I would cast an Abarr only if I couldn't POM an Ablast to keep the stack up before I could position myself.
Now with 2pcT10 I use AB024AM-Mbar, meaning that if I have an Mbar proc on 0, 2,3,4 stacks I will use it, otherwise will continue casting or hit 4 stacks and hit AM. You do this in order to keep the haste buff up.
Pre-2pcT10 I was using a strict (or relatively, depending on fight length/mana left) ABx4-AM, pretty must casting AM every time I had 4 stacks regardless of proc. If I was moving and the stacks were going to fall off I would cast an Abarr only if I couldn't POM an Ablast to keep the stack up before I could position myself.
Now with 2pcT10 I use AB024AM-Mbar, meaning that if I have an Mbar proc on 0, 2,3,4 stacks I will use it, otherwise will continue casting or hit 4 stacks and hit AM. You do this in order to keep the haste buff up.
Why don't you use it on ABx1? I'm confused there...
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Just from theorycrafting from things that I have read about optimized sequences. There are different sequences each with different MPS and DPS values, iirc the one that I am using is a good balance of the two.
Anobix is also speaking from a higher end.
There are multiple fights where I just stand there an AB till I notice the boss will be dead before I get off another AB...
Heriocs and some raid bosses (Ever run the Patchwerk "Weekly" raid request...) Or when the Heart is exposed on KT? It's completely mana inefficient... But I've found that I can really spike my damage. If you are running heroics - this will up your DPS against most bosses by a lot. I don't even have 2 trinkets and I was topping out 4,500 dps on most bosses. I just see crits of 10 to 14k flashing across the screen... It's not a "raid rotation" (Is spamming anything a rotation?) but it works well enough.
There are other fights where I clear my AB Stack as soon as I can. (1st boss in FoS or 'the Dance' or other fights where mechanics or movement will likely break my Stacking.)
I don't try to clear my stacks with Arcane Barrage unless I have to move... Now.
There are multiple fights where I just stand there an AB till I notice the boss will be dead before I get off another AB...
Heriocs and some raid bosses (Ever run the Patchwerk "Weekly" raid request...) Or when the Heart is exposed on KT? It's completely mana inefficient... But I've found that I can really spike my damage. If you are running heroics - this will up your DPS against most bosses by a lot. I don't even have 2 trinkets and I was topping out 4,500 dps on most bosses. I just see crits of 10 to 14k flashing across the screen... It's not a "raid rotation" (Is spamming anything a rotation?) but it works well enough.
There are other fights where I clear my AB Stack as soon as I can. (1st boss in FoS or 'the Dance' or other fights where mechanics or movement will likely break my Stacking.)
I don't try to clear my stacks with Arcane Barrage unless I have to move... Now.
Have either of you considered dropping ABarr for something else then? Like one point into Incanter's? Or slow?
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Good questions! Go to the back of the EJ thread, and they're talking about this stuff there.
With most raid fights, there's going to be some movement involved. Particularly on newer stuff, it's useful to have ABarr to squeeze out a little more damage you would otherwise miss. Lot's of slime pools and dodging goos.
Incanter's is great if you're raiding with a Disc. Priest, and for certain fights where there's a lot of fire or frost damage (that you can ward against).
Slow is a good utility spell, but in a well run raid is not necessary. I've played with Slow, IA, increased range, improved counterspell (for the PvP fight in ToC), pushback resistance (nice, but not worth it on fights that "count"), but never got rid of ABarr. I always found someplace else to steal a point.
The 2pc T10 certainly screws the AB spamming technique (which I used to love). That haste buff is something you want to get often. I still fish for procs though.
edit for side question:
yeah, I do FS 8+7, Blizzard. I don't think it actually does more damage, the smaller area is a problem. Conversely, the small area allows the tanks to grab a few stragglers on AoE pulls before I do and I've noticed fewer threat problems since I've switched to that.
Edited, Feb 9th 2010 5:02pm by boquaz
With most raid fights, there's going to be some movement involved. Particularly on newer stuff, it's useful to have ABarr to squeeze out a little more damage you would otherwise miss. Lot's of slime pools and dodging goos.
Incanter's is great if you're raiding with a Disc. Priest, and for certain fights where there's a lot of fire or frost damage (that you can ward against).
Slow is a good utility spell, but in a well run raid is not necessary. I've played with Slow, IA, increased range, improved counterspell (for the PvP fight in ToC), pushback resistance (nice, but not worth it on fights that "count"), but never got rid of ABarr. I always found someplace else to steal a point.
The 2pc T10 certainly screws the AB spamming technique (which I used to love). That haste buff is something you want to get often. I still fish for procs though.
edit for side question:
yeah, I do FS 8+7, Blizzard. I don't think it actually does more damage, the smaller area is a problem. Conversely, the small area allows the tanks to grab a few stragglers on AoE pulls before I do and I've noticed fewer threat problems since I've switched to that.
Edited, Feb 9th 2010 5:02pm by boquaz
I generally don't even bother doing 8->7 Blizz, I just rotate FS->Blizz->FS->Blizz, it does enough DPS to matter, if I wanted to top the aoe charts I would respec to fire and do LB spam.
Unless I get in mana-trouble I keep on spamming AB untill it procs (minimum of 4 times), when it procs, then ofcourse use AM. Then repeat. Sometimes it takes like 8 times before it procs, but if you got enuf mana, go for it.
You do so much more dmg when keep on spamming AB x4 or till it procs. Use mana gems, pots etc. evocation to keep up mana.
So, as you mages know, it's a "mini-game" how you spend/manage your mana. Gems/Evocation is your bottleneck. I will try to "save" mana when I think I get in real trouble and Evocation is not active for a while. Then I spam AB till it procs, also after 3 times, then use AM. Just to manage ur mana untill you can boost urself with extra mana. Hell, sometimes I got to wand for a few seconds before I can get some extra mana. It's like a cat-and-mouse-game.
Always make sure your mana-bar is empty at an end of a fight, so you know you gave it all :D
You do so much more dmg when keep on spamming AB x4 or till it procs. Use mana gems, pots etc. evocation to keep up mana.
So, as you mages know, it's a "mini-game" how you spend/manage your mana. Gems/Evocation is your bottleneck. I will try to "save" mana when I think I get in real trouble and Evocation is not active for a while. Then I spam AB till it procs, also after 3 times, then use AM. Just to manage ur mana untill you can boost urself with extra mana. Hell, sometimes I got to wand for a few seconds before I can get some extra mana. It's like a cat-and-mouse-game.
Always make sure your mana-bar is empty at an end of a fight, so you know you gave it all :D
I have a few more Arcane questions:
1. How does MBarr work with Haste? The tooltip says it will reduce the channeled time by 2.5 seconds, and the missiles will fire every .5 second. If I reach 50% haste, what will happen? I'm ASSUMING it won't become instant. Does the haste apply after the reduction in cast time? So it becomes 1.25 seconds of channeling with missiles firing every .25 seconds?
2. When, exactly, is the best time to use Presence of Mind? Should I save it for when I'm forced to move, and make an AB instant (as Anobix mentioned earlier), or should I fit it into my rotation? I'm leaning towards the first option, since making a 2.5 second ability take 1.5 seconds (before haste) every 1.4 minutes doesn't seem like a large enough reason to potentially miss it.
3. Should I use Arcane Power every 1.4 minutes, or wait the extra minute so it always syncs up with Icy Veins (assuming the fight is long enough to use both twice). If it is probably going to be long enough that I could use AP three times, should I do anything different?
[EDIT]
4. When should I use Mirror Image? I use during my heroism/bloodlust phase (and when I use IV/AP), but more specifically, should I use it before or after these abilities/my speed pot are triggered (this is, of course, assuming that they actually gain from these stats). Do they copy them at the time of casting, like a DK's Gargoyle, or inherit them in real time?
5. Do Mirror Images do anything other than cast Frost Bolt? I haven't really payed attention to them in parties yet... Oh, and do they trigger a GCD (or share one with anything)? It's unclear after trying it a few times, but I'm not sure if the problem is lag or them, because it SEEMS like the CD after using it is really, really short (but existent).
6. I understand that MIs are a threat tool. But do they reduce your current threat (like Invis) or do they split your outgoing threat (like, you generate 25% threat for the 30 seconds they are out, which would be really nice because even at low gear levels I put out huge threat with AP/IV up, which will pull me hate if I don't wait, which can be annoying in Heroics. Plus I'm fighting the gear stigma atm, and would rather be able to top the 5K asshats who can barely hit 2K. I average, like, 170 atm and can put out 2.4K with no caster buffs).
Thanks.
Edited, Feb 11th 2010 9:46pm by idiggory
1. How does MBarr work with Haste? The tooltip says it will reduce the channeled time by 2.5 seconds, and the missiles will fire every .5 second. If I reach 50% haste, what will happen? I'm ASSUMING it won't become instant. Does the haste apply after the reduction in cast time? So it becomes 1.25 seconds of channeling with missiles firing every .25 seconds?
2. When, exactly, is the best time to use Presence of Mind? Should I save it for when I'm forced to move, and make an AB instant (as Anobix mentioned earlier), or should I fit it into my rotation? I'm leaning towards the first option, since making a 2.5 second ability take 1.5 seconds (before haste) every 1.4 minutes doesn't seem like a large enough reason to potentially miss it.
3. Should I use Arcane Power every 1.4 minutes, or wait the extra minute so it always syncs up with Icy Veins (assuming the fight is long enough to use both twice). If it is probably going to be long enough that I could use AP three times, should I do anything different?
[EDIT]
4. When should I use Mirror Image? I use during my heroism/bloodlust phase (and when I use IV/AP), but more specifically, should I use it before or after these abilities/my speed pot are triggered (this is, of course, assuming that they actually gain from these stats). Do they copy them at the time of casting, like a DK's Gargoyle, or inherit them in real time?
5. Do Mirror Images do anything other than cast Frost Bolt? I haven't really payed attention to them in parties yet... Oh, and do they trigger a GCD (or share one with anything)? It's unclear after trying it a few times, but I'm not sure if the problem is lag or them, because it SEEMS like the CD after using it is really, really short (but existent).
6. I understand that MIs are a threat tool. But do they reduce your current threat (like Invis) or do they split your outgoing threat (like, you generate 25% threat for the 30 seconds they are out, which would be really nice because even at low gear levels I put out huge threat with AP/IV up, which will pull me hate if I don't wait, which can be annoying in Heroics. Plus I'm fighting the gear stigma atm, and would rather be able to top the 5K asshats who can barely hit 2K. I average, like, 170 atm and can put out 2.4K with no caster buffs).
Thanks.
Edited, Feb 11th 2010 9:46pm by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
1) it is multiplicative making the cast time smaller and smaller. It will hit 1sec with enough haste.
2) Depends on the fight entirely. If it is a heavy movement fight where I will have a chance to lose the stack I save it for that, on a standstill fight like festergut I save it for when I have 3-4 stacks of arcane blast to get a high% crit with it because of the passive buff.
3) It becomes important to know how long the fight is and when buffs will be used (bloodlust/heroism/etc). Most of the time I use both right off the bat with mirror image, then use it again when it is up, then save IV for when AP comes up and use them together again.
2) Depends on the fight entirely. If it is a heavy movement fight where I will have a chance to lose the stack I save it for that, on a standstill fight like festergut I save it for when I have 3-4 stacks of arcane blast to get a high% crit with it because of the passive buff.
3) It becomes important to know how long the fight is and when buffs will be used (bloodlust/heroism/etc). Most of the time I use both right off the bat with mirror image, then use it again when it is up, then save IV for when AP comes up and use them together again.
I got a macro made wich I called NUKE!
Every 2 minutes I can use it to pop it all at the same time. Makes goood dmg :)
/cast Icy Veins
/cast Arcane Power
/use Talisman of Resurgence (or whatever trink u got to pop)
/cast Mirror Image (3 min cooldown in sted of 2)
/use Potion of Speed (optional, only consumes once per fight, cuz you can save it when Heroism comes up as well)
Lots of fights I start with that macro, and use it again after 2 minutes etc. Try to manage it, so if you know when Heroism comes up, try to save it for that period to maximize your dmg.
Mirror Image just do frostbolts.
I use my Presence of Mind after 2nd AB, so the 3th is "free" then quickly do a 4th and then use AM if it procs. If AM dos not proc, you can choose to continue spam AB until it does. Your mana goes quick then, so you have to manage the fight. If you need the mana, you can choose to cast AB even if it does not proc. If you have enuf mana, or Evocation rdy, you can choose to spam AB till it procs. That way you will make the most damage possible.
MI is a perfect spell if you got a lot of threat. Iceblock is also a slower, but Invisible is by far the best aggro-dropper. Your aggro will be 0% after Invisible.
Every 2 minutes I can use it to pop it all at the same time. Makes goood dmg :)
/cast Icy Veins
/cast Arcane Power
/use Talisman of Resurgence (or whatever trink u got to pop)
/cast Mirror Image (3 min cooldown in sted of 2)
/use Potion of Speed (optional, only consumes once per fight, cuz you can save it when Heroism comes up as well)
Lots of fights I start with that macro, and use it again after 2 minutes etc. Try to manage it, so if you know when Heroism comes up, try to save it for that period to maximize your dmg.
Mirror Image just do frostbolts.
I use my Presence of Mind after 2nd AB, so the 3th is "free" then quickly do a 4th and then use AM if it procs. If AM dos not proc, you can choose to continue spam AB until it does. Your mana goes quick then, so you have to manage the fight. If you need the mana, you can choose to cast AB even if it does not proc. If you have enuf mana, or Evocation rdy, you can choose to spam AB till it procs. That way you will make the most damage possible.
MI is a perfect spell if you got a lot of threat. Iceblock is also a slower, but Invisible is by far the best aggro-dropper. Your aggro will be 0% after Invisible.
4) I usually use MI first... you may want them out before heroism, I think
5) MI does trigger a global cooldown, and they used to do more interesting stuff, but it ended up being annoying so it was removed
6) MI is a threat-delayer. You won't pull threat due to damage done during MI, but once it ends the threat each image generated is added to yours. In practice, this is almost never a problem and MI allows you to go "all out." If you have a low-geared tank, you should watch to see that he's going to be keeping threat at the end of MI. If he won't, be ready with an invisibility. That happened in Naxx occasionally, but at higher gear levels, I haven't seen this problem.
If you (as a low-geared mage) are running with a well geared tank in a heroic, using MI, and you're pulling threat off of him, and someone is complaining about your damage... well then, you've just run into a jerk and there's not much you can do about that.
5) MI does trigger a global cooldown, and they used to do more interesting stuff, but it ended up being annoying so it was removed
6) MI is a threat-delayer. You won't pull threat due to damage done during MI, but once it ends the threat each image generated is added to yours. In practice, this is almost never a problem and MI allows you to go "all out." If you have a low-geared tank, you should watch to see that he's going to be keeping threat at the end of MI. If he won't, be ready with an invisibility. That happened in Naxx occasionally, but at higher gear levels, I haven't seen this problem.
If you (as a low-geared mage) are running with a well geared tank in a heroic, using MI, and you're pulling threat off of him, and someone is complaining about your damage... well then, you've just run into a jerk and there's not much you can do about that.
I don't use potions of speed with Icy Veins and Heroism. With my current Haste rating and the T10 2pc bonus I found I was right up against the 1 sec cast time. I will use it when Icy Veins is up again.
mgjr wrote:
I don't use potions of speed with Icy Veins and Heroism. With my current Haste rating and the T10 2pc bonus I found I was right up against the 1 sec cast time. I will use it when Icy Veins is up again.
You're absolutely right, I got 1034 haste atm and the Global Cool Down of 1 second is the bottleneck. As an alternative (wich I use myself aswell) is Potion of Wild Magic. (200 SP and 200 Crit for 15 sec).
You can use http://milamber.ch/spellhastecap.html as a calculator to see how you're doing.
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