60 Emblems of FrostFollow

As the title implies, im just about to hit my first 60 emblems of frost and i cant decide between the trinket that gives 228 stamina, or the Tier 10 shoulders.

Any ideas which i should go for given my current gear?

Armoury : http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Anachronos&cn=Ulfhe%C3%B4nar

My goal is to end up tanking ICC at some point, so I'm going to follow that advice to the letter. I totaly dropped the notion of getting the trinket first after I made the initial post, after realising that the belt will get me just as much health, but have changed my mind again in favour of the Cloak.

My guild does get 25 man runs in, but only very occasionaly, with help from friends of the guild.

I tanked Ulduar 10 last night and we gave up just after Kologarn, but we should be going back in this week and I'll have a shot at the shield from Auriaya.

I was talking to a friend last night and he said i should switch all my gems over to stamina/parry because of the 20% dodge decrease in ICC. Any thoughts on this, 'cause I can see the logic, i just don't like it.

Probably not, because an extra 1k health against a raid boss isn't going to do much, whereas an extra 500-1k health plus avoidance and threat, is going to make more of a difference. I think.

I can see where you're coming from and it makes sense, but the people I raid with see beyond having a large health pool, and tabstopper also presents a better argument for his choices, in my opinion.

Also, not wanting to sound like an *** here, but...



...just sounds way too childish for me to take you seriously.

I plan on being the best tank I can be, and while its probably going to take me untill cataclysm comes out, I'm going to try and get as much 251 and 264 gear as possible.


Edited, Jan 29th 2010 1:41pm by Sgriob

The last time I checked, *** wasnt an offensive word, it means donkey

Or,from google:

You know, you're 100% right on that.

"You're an idiot." Let me rephrase. I disagree with you assertion that you can't do ToGC10 in ilvl 232 and 245 gear. It was designed for gear of that level. I've often found that players who lack the skill to run an instance at the appropriate gear level will insist that you need higher level gear, ToC25 gear in this case, to run a 10-man progression instance. Blizzard balances progression separately on 10 and 25 man scales, and any 10 man instance should be able to be cleared without having done 25s (Sarth10 was a bit of stretch, but was overtuned).

"Jackass." Again, probably a little strong. Try this: Clearly no one is going to be fully decked out in 264 gear before starting ICC10, nor would I suggest that the OP should be. I'm amazed that you would interpret what I said as "get this whole set of gear before you step into ICC." I'm not sure - were you being purposefully dense or did you really not understand that that was recommended as a long-term order?

I have no doubt the warriors you linked are the best warrior tanks on your realm (all from EU-Dragonblight). But not a single one is even from a top-100 guild (Aeternus - 174, Pentaverate - 482, Ten - 1068), let along a top-10 guild. Not that they're bad, but if I want to look at how a quarterback plays, I'm going to look at Peyton Manning, not Brady Quinn.

As far as gearing for (bonus) armor goes - Blizzard announced that they were re-itemizing the T10 gloves and chest with bonus armor. The ilvl 264 emblem gear with bonus armor was so much better for progression that Blizzard wanted to make the tier gear appealing. When Blizzard re-itemizes equipment after releasing it, it's pretty obvious they know they screwed up ("This gear is inferior because it doesn't have bonus armor - tanks aren't going to take it.")

And just to make my position on the trinkets clear - I don't think the Skeleton Key is a bad trinket. But it's a bad investment of your Frost badges in my opinion. The other Frost gear offers similar levels of improvement in HP, but also more Armor and other useful stats. Given that you're not going to get the Skeleton Key, I personally like the Glyph of Indomitability because it adds a bunch of Effective Health and one of the best on-use effects of any tanking trinket in the game. If you don't want to use the Glyph, run with a double stamina trinket - Brewfest + Bonus Armor Frost Gear will still get you more mileage than Skeleton Key + Triumph gear - you'll end up with the same amount of HP, but be more survivable.

Anyway, you're really not worth arguing with. While I don't know how much you "know," the advice you've given on gearing and itemization tells me you're not really that knowledgeable about the warrior class. The comments you've made in other threads reinforce this idea. I really haven't seen an insightful post from you on either the warrior or the paladin forums, and I read pretty much everything that comes across both of them.

I'm not going to bother responding to anything you say in this thread at this point. I wish you luck and hope that this thread inspires you to broaden your knowledge base about tanking itemization. As it stands, you've got some work to do.

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EDIT: Don't want to bring this to the top more than we need, but if you think my CHARACTER precludes me from commenting here then you're a lost cause. I run 10 mans only, and my guild in on a hiatus. The one ICC10 PUG I bothered to organize with me MTing was a fair success (one night, pushed to Saurfang, got hung up because ranged couldn't kill the beasts) that I had absolutely no trouble tanking. If you can think of 10 man upgrades for my character beyond Breastplate of the White Knight, Crusader's Glory, and the Ashen Verdict rep ring (or drops from PUG raids of TOGC10 /shudder), I'd love to hear them.


Get back to the O-boards, troll. You're embarrassing yourself. Also, learn to spell. If you had anything useful to say I'd debate it with you.

Edited, Feb 1st 2010 2:47pm by tabstopper

Eldik wrote;


We are a fairly serious community here.

Weekly raid, keep trying.


I'll have the ring the next time I PUG ICC. I told you my ICC experience - led a PUG one time, made it to Saurfang, had no trouble tanking anything. I don't really give two ***** about you - luckily nearly every post you've made has been rated sub-default in this thread. Apparently the rest of the board has the same opinion of your posts as I do. They're trash.

Also, my advice about Frost badges is spot on. Your's sucks.

Ad hominem attacks are the last refuge of someone who's completely outclassed. You can't actually make an argument about the order I gave, and you have no idea about tanking itemization, as evidenced by your terrible advice on this thread. So you attack my character, which is exactly where he should be given that I haven't had much time to PUG ICC recently and I don't run 25s (computer issue). Grow up up and go home.

The biggest threat to a tank on Festergut is damage after the 3rd inhale, which is primarily physical. Gastric Bloat is physical damage. It's mitigated by Armor, same as the deadly melee attacks. When the tank is in the most danger of dying on that fight (three inhales), magical damage in general is at its lowest, and almost all of the damage is physical. When your tank is being hit for 25k per hit before Shield Wall, the ability to shave 5500 damage per hit (Xav vs. the OP) before CDs is not to be understated. Hell, that ability to shave 2500 damage per hit (me vs. the OP) is not to be understated - that's 32k dmg over 12 seconds assuming the worst possible case, which is what I gear for (caveat - I wouldn't try to tank Festergut 25 in my current gear. I would tank Festergut 10 in my gear).

I know the OP is not Xav. The OP is in no way geared for Festergut 25 (or Arthas 25, which is what Xav is actually gearing for). You know this and I know this. He's not even really geared to enter ICC 10 at this point. My advice is to bring him up to par to enter ICC10, which it would do.


I have to compare a stamina trinket to a cloak. They're what the OP was debating buying with Frost badges. In practice, leaving trinkets untouched so it's easier to understand, this is what I was advising the OP compared with you:

Cloak compared with the Key
-47 Sta (+70 stam vs. +118 stam)
+49 Str
+583 Armor
+10 Defense (2.03)
+11 Dodge (0.28%)

So more avoidance and more threat stats. More armor, less stamina. ~500 HP less to be specific. 583 armor more. In essence a wash on EH. Of course, that's only because he's upgrading from the Essence of Gossamer, an ilvl 200 blue to the Skeleton Key, an ilvl 264. He'll gain a ton of Stamina in general before he's ready for ICC - lots of stamina on the gear upgrades I listed.

In reality, I should have advised him to get the belt, as it's a bigger upgrade for him and is actually way ahead of the trinket as an upgrade, as opposed to being ~on par.

Belt compared with the Skeleton Key
-28 Sta (+90 stamina vs. +118 stam)
63 Str
822 Armor
14 Defense (2.85)
63 Parry (1.28%)


Run the numbers on diminishing returns. Compared with your first example tank (Sunsword), I'll gain 0.6% more dodge from the trinket (7.75% after DR compared with 7.12% after DR). Don't underestimate my gear just because I don't have HP of someone who is geared from 25s.

In terms of Sunsword once again, his avoidance (after DR) goes from 36.85% to 43.97% with the Glyph's trinket on-use (it's not a proc). You're right, Chill of the Throne makes it less powerful than it would be in ToGC. But you're still going to have ~12% less hits connect against Festergut, even accounting for Chill of the Throne. Hardly "sticking your head in the sand." What trinket effect do you prefer? Well, tbh I might prefer Satrina's Impending Scarab or the Heart of Iron. Unfortunately, the OP has neither of these and his guild doesn't run 25s. The on-use of the Glyph is definitely superior to the on-use for the Skeleton Key, though the Skeleton Key is a better EH trinket overall.

Good tanks have multiple trinkets and can swap them as needed. The Glyph is strongest on fights like Festergut where the primary threat is physical damage. If I'm tanking Festergut and I see I'm getting killed, and the Overkill # is less that 2k HP consistently, I'll consider swapping it out for the Brewfest trinket.


What part of "PUG" don't you understand. This wasn't a guild run. Next time I run, PUG it I'll recruit better ranged DPS and we'll be fine. There is no way in hell I'm going to trade myself out as a tank for some random shmuck paladin who I don't know. I've seen too many tanks absolutely fail, including tanks with much more HP than me. I'll still tank ICC and we'll have no problems, assuming we have competent ranged DPS. Not my fault that a Warlock and Shadow Priest can't kill a Bloodbeast even when it's being snared and stunned for them (CoI from a DK, HoJ from the Ret pally, Shockwave from me if I'm not otherwise occupied), but the hunter could solo one without being touched ....


Effective Health gearing in general is most useful when you're trying to push content you're at the bottom edge of the gear curve on. Effective Health gearing means that you want the highest possible levels of Stamina and Armor that you can push for. Once you overgear content, it doesn't really matter.

Gearing only for Stamina and ignoring Armor is a mistake. Ignoring stamina is a mistake too, though that's not what I'm advising the OP to do.

Two things -

First, since you seem to like trying to pick on my character, if you were me what would you upgrade from 10s other than ICC or ToGC? Ring (next ICC PUG), Chest (Titansteel CDs), Sword (waiting on a drop) that I've got a Blood Draining enchant waiting on. Other than that I'm pretty much maxed out from ToC10. I have a Brewfest trinket, but haven't hit a single fight in ICC where it would have been beneficial to use over the Glyph.

Assuming I milk the first wing dry on upgrades, I'll only gain around +63 Stamina (most of it from the legs) and 1317 Armor, along with some avoidance and expertise. Luckily, Blizzard tunes 10 mans where you only need the HP from 10 man gear to complete them ...

So tell me, how am I gearing wrong for where I'm at entering ICC10? How am I "playing with Armor"? What should I change? Brewfest over Glyph? Cause that's pretty much my big choice at this point. Correct me on my gearing, since I obviously don't know what I'm doing.

Second - Do you tank or heal when you're in ICC? I thought you tanked, but you're talking like you've healed it ... Why don't you link your tank(s) so we can go over them and see how wonderfully you've geared them.

Edits: Clarity
Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 11:24am by tabstopper

Edited, Feb 3rd 2010 11:25am by tabstopper

Update:

I got all of the upgrades from triumph emblems that you suggested, and I almost have enough emblems of frost for the belt, which should be really awesome. I switched to the glyph of blocking because it seemed like a logical choice, because I'm not having problems with threat unless a Mage decides to blow everything he's got on trash, so its giving me more threat against single targets because of the increased Shield Slam damage.

My guild needed a tank for ICC 10 man last night and let me join up, I thought we were starting from scratch, but little did i know that they had moved up to Festergut, we managed to down him successfully, which I was quite surprised about

Unfortunately, my guild disbanded straight after that run because of a clash between the officers and the guild leader, so it looks like I'm not going to be tanking anything that hard(and fun!) for any time in the foreseeable future.