Turtle TankFollow

Last nite I healed a Turtle acting as a Tank in Normal CoS. The turtle dinged 80 during the
run fwiw. It went shockingly well. I was an 80 Tree in mostly i200 epics and rares so I was
not all that over-equipped. So I have some questions;

1) Can this work in Heroics ?
2) The Pet was one he had had from BFD and was not an elite. Would that make much of a difference?
3) The only weakness that I could see was that the Turtle was a little weaker at keeping aggro.
Not sure why. Is this right ?
4) Where would you go for an Elite to tame?

Thanks. It was a blast of a run.

Our guild has had a hunter pet-tank for us for a while now. A skilled/knowledgeable hunter can turn a pet into something akin to an under-geared tank.

We've used his turtle in heriocs and 10-mans to some degree as an OT. The biggest problem is there are several boss abilities that cannot target a pet, and will instead be directed to a dps/healer. However the reduction to AoE damage, and shell shield do give the turtle a boost in limited circumstances.

It certainly is possible to do many things with a skilled hunter & pet. But it isn't really a replacement for a reasonably geared tank. We do it as more of a 'fun' thing. Though there have been circumstances where the turtle has proved valuable, it's more of the exception rather than the rule.

There is this site:

http://bigredrhino.wordpress.com/

where a group focuses around using pets as main tanks. Very nice to read, very much accomplished. (that said, you DO need a full group that focuses on this; not much chance on using it in a PUG)

Pet tanks are viable regardless of what some players may have to say about it, but you will have to have a player controllign the hunter and pet who is fast, dextrous, quick witted, not-prone to panic, experienced and willing to stand ground where other hunters pull back. Pet tanking is not easy, and its going to require you muster every peice of speed and thought you can, but it is certainly not an impossible task.

My hunter is a BM, and has had amazing success using pets as party tanks (needless to say much easier before the Heroic stage). But there are many factors to remember, and not the least of which is mentality of the group your with. It was stated earlier that your average PUG >pick up group< will have a tank who refuses to consider sharing the responsibility, and some get quite angry simply over the "growl" taunt of you pet being active. Many healers don't like the idea of healing pets for a hunter, and some people even refuse to buff the pets (simply idiotic on that point). Your TEAM must be willing to accept your pet as Tank or Off-Tank, because without the teams support your pet tank will get no where.

Secondly, your pet tanks stands no real chance of success at raised levels with the hunter as a MM or SV spec, the pet's bonuses are just too low, not to mention those extra four talent points for a BM pet make a world of difference in its capacity for any role.

Now for an odd bit to most hunters, Agility will no longer be your primary stack! WHAT?! Think tank, you need stamina and defense to survive and thats the tanks main job, survival where the others on the team would fall in a couple of hits if not one good crit. So now you need to start stacking Stamina, preferably from mail armor with good Armor Rating for highest carry over of defensive stats to your pet. Then we hit another oddity, AP bonuses on the hunters equipment become even more important...now hear me out on this. Your pet gets attack bonuses from your offensive stats as well, specifically your Attack Power. Now most hunters need that Agi first for all of its benefits beyond just AP, but AP pluses off of most items will stack FAR faster then the equivelent bonuses you get from Agi on items at the same ilevel. You look into the math for yourself but roughly 1 agi = 2 AP, so agi is still very important but you can more quickly stack AP onto your pet by paying closer attention to the AP vs AGI pluses on an item. So for tank pet, Sta then armor then AP/Agi but with more emphasis on total AP then total Agi.

And now a direct note to hunters who would like to try using a pet tank! Go practice!! The last thing any of us need is a hunter who says "My pets the tank for this go go!!" and promptly runs the team into party wipe hell due to under-tuned hunter skills or uncontrolled pet pulling in add after add. Now your practice will consist of some solo trials, against mob clusters as close to your level as you can find. Practice controlling your pet and its particular skills. First you need to practice how to grab aggro as the pet in a controlled fashion, and then how to hold it after the hunter starts shooting. Key skills to remember for this part are your pets special skills, growl, intimidate, kill command, call of the wild, deterence, disengage, frost traps, concussive shot, freeze trap(arrow), Heart of the Phoenix (if applicable), MEND PET MEND PET MEND PET, and the hunter staple Misdirection. These are the primary skills you will use while pet tanking to maintain pet aggro and keep the mobs herded towards the pet. Also at this time go pull the "Pet Attack Queue" macro from one of the macro threads here (seen it in a couple places now) and learn to love it.

Now presumably after hours of frustrating practice at this you may think you have it figured out, but you don't. Now you have to start practicing your hunter's shot rotations and personal DPS upkeep. You have to maintain all the things you learned previously but start stacking a new skill set on top, doing BIG damage without pulling aggro from your pet. Suggested rotation would be Misdirect(when available, and before your first attack on a new mob), kill shot(when available), serpent sting, arcane shot, multi-shot(if facing more then one mob, and not having major aggro issues in the encounter), and steady shot. Any experienced hunter will confirm that this rotation drops major damage and can be easily adjusted to fit into most fights.

Great now you know how to use the pet right, and how to manage a shot rotation without pulling too much threat (necessary hunter skill to have even when your not pet tanking). Now for stage three of your practice and training, kiting/crowd control while maintaining your tank at the same time. No other class in the game is quite as adept at this two jobs as a hunter, but remember your primary roll now is still tank, and hunter death now equals tank death to a party. Here you start in with PUGs, and use the pet as an off tank, and work on your kiting skills, keeping the adds away from your casters, pulling the occasional mob off the tank into a freeze trap to keep it out ot the way, and learning which hits you can and can't take to save your healer. This portion of your training is one of the most important for the longevity of your groups, even if you decide to pet tank you still need to keep the skills that make hunters so handy sharp.

So as you can see, being a pet tanker requires more skills then the average hunter, and lots of time to hone your reflexes. You will be mashing buttons with more fervor than ANY other class, and your going to develope a much more intricate knowledge of what your character and yourself are capable of.


Hope this helps any that are seriosly considering one of the hardest character concepts in the game, and if enough of you show interest I may even clean this up into a more detailed tutorial.

What was the point of that massive post?

A) Pets aren't viable tanks, and

B) You don't need a guide a to use your pet as a tank, just send it in to attack, and use growl. Wait till it loses aggro, group wipes, you get kicked, the end.

Fixed.

Well time for an update, and certainly some enlightenment...PETS CAN TANK! At least through heroic Utgarde Pinnacle...thats as far as I have taken my worm tank so far. My worm now has 25K armor >yes it is still lacking in mitigation and can be crit< and has nearly 24K HP when buffed with what I carry into the dungeons with me, more with the right party. But between its growl and stomp it holds aggro just fine so far, as long as the party does the standard actions, focus on pet and assist attack. As far as healing this pet goes it has been pretty simple, he auto heals 2% total with each growl, 800+ with each tick of spirit bond, as well as 1500per tick from my mend pet. He does go down in the occassional boss fight, but takes all of five seconds to rez, too bad he doesnt have heart of the pheonix or healing and up time for this would be a completely moot point. Its not a matter of whether or not the appropriate pet can tank, its a question as to weather the party is willing to change thier technique slightly to try something new.

Hardest part I have had with this is picking up adds, who never come solo or two at a time, and the AoE from pets are all melee range based, but this is why I went with the worm tank instead of turtle, acip spit and growl both work at range making pulling some of the adds that much easier, but there are still loose ends. Have to have the melee DPS pull the extra adds into melee range of pet and then return to an "assist" system, within a few seconds at melee range the pet will take aggro offa adds pulled close enough to him that arent taking anyother direct damage. This brings into point the AoE of the rest of the party, this has to be tuned back, but DPS in general does not, you just need to focus on your tanks target and any experienced tank or healer will tell that this IS THE PRIMARY CAUSE OF PARTY WIPES!! An overzealous DPS thinking well that ones under control I am going to attack these other two since the tank has that one. The DPS amount 6k 5k maybe even 3k comment is for the birds, its a matter of focus vs spread dps...a pet with all of thier autofire skills will not loose agro on thier primary target to almost any amount of DPS as long as there is no threat modifier attached to said DPS. The MOBS not directly targeted by the pet are the real concern, a consecration or a volley too early in the encounter will cause a windmill of running about, but this again brings up item 2 on the list of things experienced tanks will tell you, if you pull aggro accidently GO TO THE TANK, don't go running back for the entrance because most likely the tank is not going to be able to catch up and retake aggro with you darting like a rabbit.

I say still that pet tanks are viable through at least most of the heroics, and even enjoyable, but not a simple change for some players who have all thier choices made for them by a spreadsheet or website. DPS and Gearscore >though majorly helpful< are not the be all and end all of a groups success. Patience to really learn you class, your spec and your skills will make more difference in your overall success then upgrading that trinket.


And again I say to ye naysayers, try it before you knock it, know it before you dump on it...there are always more answers to solving an issue then the supposed "experts" propose.

And I propose a challange to anyone that disagrees with me still, make a hunter, go BeastMastery, really focus on it, and go try what has been mentioned here. I have been using pets as tanks since my first trip ever into RFK to much success. I still run mostly DPS, and certainly always DPS in my PUGs at 80 now, people seem vehement against the idea of a pet tank even if they have no experience in seeing one used not to mention I can't trust anyone in a PUG to actually assist the tank instead of targeting willy nilly, but my team and I have had much success in this little experiment away from the PUG circuit.

BTW Aethin, I know you like to sound smart and all but if you noticed my post did say you have to have a TEAM willing to use the pet tank...don't know why you made it seem like I never mentioned that...No where did I say that hunters didnt stack AP before, just stating that now it has a slightly more important role as you should be stacking Sta and Armor FIRST for your pet tank....jeeze read a little more before you try destroying a post you ego maniac.

Yuppley, yes, pets can be viable tanks, in the hands of a properly organized and geared hunter, and this is a fact that is becoming more incotroversial. And the point of this long thread is to give those out there interested in the concept a chance to learn from the experience of others instead of just taking the word of the day from someone who obviously doesnt really know....and as far as your second comment its obvious that the joy of the game is lost on you.


Someprotienguy- I don't really recall any mention of using my pet for tanking raids, as crits at that point can become unwieldy, but it is good to know that your group has at least played with the notion, and put it to success in some situations(pet holding agro so tank can go extra DPS) thats a great bit of info. And its also good to note that you may have done this on occasion and had the pet successfully hold an agro in a raid with raid size DPS coming in on the target. That does extend my hope some for more long term viability in pet tanks...

Yeah, except pets AREN'T viable tanks, no matter what. BTW, I do really know. I played the game since ALPHA, not beta, ALPHA. I cleared Naxx pre-bc, cleared SWP, and cleared Naxx in WotLK [sorry, that's as far as my experience goes :(, I have pretty much nil WotLK raiding experience]. I think I might have gotten glad during BC, maybe I was number one during WotLK for a while too, but my memory is kinda fuzzy so that might not be right. The game did become kind of a bore after Blizz started @#%^ing me over, not very joyous...

Edited, Feb 21st 2010 1:43pm by Yuppley