Hey everyone
I am new to posting, so please bare with me. I have been struggling with my rogue. I have talked to a lot of different players and searched the web, but it seems my DPS sucks a lot of the time. I was hoping you could look at my armory and offer and tips and or advice. I have tried Mutilate and Combat, but it seems neither one works.
I would be really interested in any advice on rotations as well.
This isn't my only 80, but it IS by far my hardest most frustrating toon to try to get respectable.
Thanks in advance
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Uldaman&n=Dokkenwood
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Welcome! before we start to help, what exactly is your dps looking like right now? Also, what rotations are you using for each spec?
I don't know much about the mut spec, but the combat one can be fixed up a bit, as Rupture isn't the greatest anymore (many are now using ruptureless builds). Something like this, is what many combat rogues are going for.
I don't know much about the mut spec, but the combat one can be fixed up a bit, as Rupture isn't the greatest anymore (many are now using ruptureless builds). Something like this, is what many combat rogues are going for.
Gear is your biggest problem right now. Grind heroics and get badge gear will help you more than anything else right now. Rogue's are highly gear dependent.
Specs are:
Muti: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0ec0egoVboIuVo0xV0xcZb
Combat: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#fbe00tLZMgVo0cxqru0xRt
Glyphs are:
Muti: Mutilate, Hunger for Blood, Tricks of The Trade(or Fan of Knives).
Combat: Sinsiter Strike, Killing Spree, Slice and Dice.
Rotations are:
Muti: Start Hunger for Blood, Start Slice and Dice, Spam Envenom, Refresh Hunger for Blood as necessary.
Combat: Start Slice and Dice, Spam Eviscerate, Refresh Slice and dice as needed.
Start with that and than come back with more questions.
Specs are:
Muti: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0ec0egoVboIuVo0xV0xcZb
Combat: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#fbe00tLZMgVo0cxqru0xRt
Glyphs are:
Muti: Mutilate, Hunger for Blood, Tricks of The Trade(or Fan of Knives).
Combat: Sinsiter Strike, Killing Spree, Slice and Dice.
Rotations are:
Muti: Start Hunger for Blood, Start Slice and Dice, Spam Envenom, Refresh Hunger for Blood as necessary.
Combat: Start Slice and Dice, Spam Eviscerate, Refresh Slice and dice as needed.
Start with that and than come back with more questions.
As I understand it, the move to a ruptureless rotation for Combat is only really advised once you reach a pretty high level of gear, i.e. mainly T9 level? The increasing levels of Armor Penetration make Evis better value, as less of the the physical damage from Evis is mitigated by the boss's armour. I'm not aware of any actual change to rogue mechanics which would change the optimal rotation for previous gear levels, but please correct me if I'm wrong!
Re: talent builds, I couldn't work out from EJ if the transfer of 5 talent points from Relentless Strikes (the old 15/51/5 build) to the Assassination tree is purely down to the recent Deadly Poison change, or if there's some additional synergy with the ruptureless rotation. I'm guessing you'd want some form of 21/50/0 build regardless of gear level, but if anyone could shed some light on that, I'd be grateful.
I know the final and best answer is always "Spreadsheet it", but it's nice to understand the reasons why one build is better than another :)
To the OP, regardless of which spec would be best for your gear level, your current combat build has a few wasted talent points. You have points in Deflection and Unfair Advantage, both of which are only useful if you're getting attacked. That should never happen when DPSing in a group, and you certainly shouldn't spec for it.
Re: talent builds, I couldn't work out from EJ if the transfer of 5 talent points from Relentless Strikes (the old 15/51/5 build) to the Assassination tree is purely down to the recent Deadly Poison change, or if there's some additional synergy with the ruptureless rotation. I'm guessing you'd want some form of 21/50/0 build regardless of gear level, but if anyone could shed some light on that, I'd be grateful.
I know the final and best answer is always "Spreadsheet it", but it's nice to understand the reasons why one build is better than another :)
To the OP, regardless of which spec would be best for your gear level, your current combat build has a few wasted talent points. You have points in Deflection and Unfair Advantage, both of which are only useful if you're getting attacked. That should never happen when DPSing in a group, and you certainly shouldn't spec for it.
The 20/51/0 build is because of poisons yes.
And I'm not sure if ruptureless is for higher gear levels or not...I haven't been undergeared since Naxx <.<
And I'm not sure if ruptureless is for higher gear levels or not...I haven't been undergeared since Naxx <.<
When I was combat in 200-219 gear I couldn't pull off the rupture-less rotation, was just not working for me DPS wise. I did the normal one and dps was a lot higher. I am thinking of going back to combat for 5man runs since I never have enough time to build up to my normal rotation.
Edited, Jan 7th 2010 1:01pm by ammerman
Edited, Jan 7th 2010 1:01pm by ammerman
7 posts
I am not exactly sure what my DPS looks like. I recently just added a meter (I guess I was playing in the dark ages with no add ons, but I was told my DPS ranges around 1200. The rotation I was using for combat was SS, SnD, SS to 5 points and then finish with rputure or evisicerate.
The Mutilate rotation I was using was open with ambush, mutilate 2X and then rupture and or envenom.
Thanks for the advice so far. I went and just respeced, and now am working on a rotation.
Thanks again
The Mutilate rotation I was using was open with ambush, mutilate 2X and then rupture and or envenom.
Thanks for the advice so far. I went and just respeced, and now am working on a rotation.
Thanks again
7 posts
At the risk of sounding like an idiot, when you say spam envenom do you mean use it after a couple mutilates? Or do I just hit envemon without generating any points?
Thanks again for taking the time to help me out
Thanks again for taking the time to help me out
7 posts
If you dont mind me asking Ammerman, what rotations did/ do you use?
ok Dude here we go:
For your undergeared gear (T8'ish) check the first post on this page:
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37112-wotlk_rogue_gear_discussion/
It shows BiS items for the T8 content. It also shows what to gem for with that gear. Keep in mind that your 4 piece T8/8.5 rotation is something like this rotation i used:
Repost from here
This is for a combat build only:
The 4 piece T8 set bonus will perform great until you get better gear, then you need to switch to the new build with the corresponding Glyphs and rupture less rotation. The reason being that the 4 piece bonus is extremely good.
Now i only need to find the old build...
Ok, remade from memory:
15-51-5
Do not ever ever ever open with ambush. Matter of fact remove it from your UI. You open with garrotte so you don't need another bleed (for Hunger for Blood) until it runs out. In combat you also open with garrotte.
You spam envenom at 4 or 5 combo points because it will refresh your Slice and Dice (SnD).
Remember i used combat so i cannot tell you if the old muti build is better with the T8 gear or not, I'm thinking the new cookie cutter build will be better for muti even when gemming the "old way". Some muti rogue can perhaps help you better with this :D
Edited, Jan 9th 2010 8:23pm by samperor
For your undergeared gear (T8'ish) check the first post on this page:
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37112-wotlk_rogue_gear_discussion/
It shows BiS items for the T8 content. It also shows what to gem for with that gear. Keep in mind that your 4 piece T8/8.5 rotation is something like this rotation i used:
Repost from here
This is for a combat build only:
samperor wrote:
The way i open is garrote -> KS so DP should be 5 stacks then. 2 X SS, SnD. Adrenaline rush for 5 pt rupture. 5 X SS then 5pts SnD + BF. Refresh rupture, after that i can mostly get 2 sets of 5pts Evisc in there before starting the cycle again. You cycle may depend on your glyph choice.
samperor wrote:
I'm using the Killing Spree, rupture and SnD glyph
The 4 piece T8 set bonus will perform great until you get better gear, then you need to switch to the new build with the corresponding Glyphs and rupture less rotation. The reason being that the 4 piece bonus is extremely good.
Now i only need to find the old build...
Ok, remade from memory:
15-51-5
Do not ever ever ever open with ambush. Matter of fact remove it from your UI. You open with garrotte so you don't need another bleed (for Hunger for Blood) until it runs out. In combat you also open with garrotte.
You spam envenom at 4 or 5 combo points because it will refresh your Slice and Dice (SnD).
Remember i used combat so i cannot tell you if the old muti build is better with the T8 gear or not, I'm thinking the new cookie cutter build will be better for muti even when gemming the "old way". Some muti rogue can perhaps help you better with this :D
Edited, Jan 9th 2010 8:23pm by samperor
*crosses arms* WRONG!
You need to make sure you're up to date on rogue news. Just because he is T8 geared, does not mean he is working with T8 mechanics.
First of all, not using the Glyph of Sinister Strike is stupid. 50% chance for a free combo point...why would you not want that? It's like not taking Seal Fate in the Assasination tree for a Muti build.
Second of all, T8 gear is worthless, you can get much much better gear from Triumph badges and the new 5 mans and TotC. Especially since you can only get 2 piece T8 without going into Ulduar, which no one does anymore except for the weekly raids.
Third of all, 15/51/5 is no longer that good. It isn't new gear that made people change to 20/51/0 its the poison changes, which affect everyone not just T10 geared people.
Fourth of all, Rogues don't really have a rotation, we have a priority system. Only time to use a rotation is if you don't know what you're doing.
The priorities as combat are:
1. Is SnD up? If not get it up/refresh it as soon as possible.
2. Is rupture up? If not get it up as soon as possible.
3. Is the answer to #1 and #2 yes? Than pop eviscerate.
Now, if you are going to do a rupture build I would recommend the following build/glyphs.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0eb0tLZMgVo0cxqru0xRt
Obviously switch the points in Hack and Slash to whatever weapons you have.
Glyphs: Sinister Strike, Slice and Dice, Rupture(Or Killing Spree).
If you find that you can keep rupture up fine, go with Killing Spree, if you need help use Rupture.
For gear, aim for 2 piece T9 at least since you'll be using rupture.
If you want me to go into Mutilate let me know.
You need to make sure you're up to date on rogue news. Just because he is T8 geared, does not mean he is working with T8 mechanics.
First of all, not using the Glyph of Sinister Strike is stupid. 50% chance for a free combo point...why would you not want that? It's like not taking Seal Fate in the Assasination tree for a Muti build.
Second of all, T8 gear is worthless, you can get much much better gear from Triumph badges and the new 5 mans and TotC. Especially since you can only get 2 piece T8 without going into Ulduar, which no one does anymore except for the weekly raids.
Third of all, 15/51/5 is no longer that good. It isn't new gear that made people change to 20/51/0 its the poison changes, which affect everyone not just T10 geared people.
Fourth of all, Rogues don't really have a rotation, we have a priority system. Only time to use a rotation is if you don't know what you're doing.
The priorities as combat are:
1. Is SnD up? If not get it up/refresh it as soon as possible.
2. Is rupture up? If not get it up as soon as possible.
3. Is the answer to #1 and #2 yes? Than pop eviscerate.
Now, if you are going to do a rupture build I would recommend the following build/glyphs.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0eb0tLZMgVo0cxqru0xRt
Obviously switch the points in Hack and Slash to whatever weapons you have.
Glyphs: Sinister Strike, Slice and Dice, Rupture(Or Killing Spree).
If you find that you can keep rupture up fine, go with Killing Spree, if you need help use Rupture.
For gear, aim for 2 piece T9 at least since you'll be using rupture.
If you want me to go into Mutilate let me know.
ouch, ok.. I was so into the research of the old gear stuff that i forgot about the poison changes, my bad. The reason i suggested the T8 4 piece was because of this quote on EJ.
As the T8 4/5 bonus lives on using rupture, that's why i mentioned the old build and old gemming choices. I also assumed the OP has a better chance at getting T8 from VOA than other gear as the other members of the raid will presumable pass the T8 stuff and roll on the T9+ stuff. I forgot about the T9 gear for triumph badges :/
In any case, do not use titanium weapon chain on your weapons, go for either berserking or the cheaper mongoose.
Edited, Jan 9th 2010 8:36pm by samperor
Quote:
Q: How good are the T9 set bonuses?
A: Given that we're dropping rupture from all our cycles, the 2/5 pretty much sucks. And the 4/5 ain't great either - it's not totally useless, but it's certainly much weaker than the T7 or T8 4/5 bonus.
A: Given that we're dropping rupture from all our cycles, the 2/5 pretty much sucks. And the 4/5 ain't great either - it's not totally useless, but it's certainly much weaker than the T7 or T8 4/5 bonus.
As the T8 4/5 bonus lives on using rupture, that's why i mentioned the old build and old gemming choices. I also assumed the OP has a better chance at getting T8 from VOA than other gear as the other members of the raid will presumable pass the T8 stuff and roll on the T9+ stuff. I forgot about the T9 gear for triumph badges :/
In any case, do not use titanium weapon chain on your weapons, go for either berserking or the cheaper mongoose.
Edited, Jan 9th 2010 8:36pm by samperor
I use the 5 for SnD, HfB up, and spam envenom when I get 4+ points
Quote:
As the T8 4/5 bonus lives on using rupture, that's why i mentioned the old build and old gemming choices. I also assumed the OP has a better chance at getting T8 from VOA than other gear as the other members of the raid will presumable pass the T8 stuff and roll on the T9+ stuff. I forgot about the T9 gear for triumph badges :/
Yea, if we looked at set bonuses alone you'd be right. But 4 piece T8 would be 4 pieces of 226, maybe one or two of 219, versus 4 pieces of 232 from T9.
7 posts
First of all, I just want to say thanks for helping me out. GodofMoo I would appreciate it if you could go into mutilate as well. I have been told that mutilate is a *must* Anyway, I am duel specced and was hoping to get info on both. Thanks again.
Sure thing. Although to be honest, the gap between Mutilate and Combat is much smaller now. Also the more you have to move in a fight the better combat gets for it.
Ruptureless Muti Build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0ec0egoVboIuVo0xV0xcZb
Glyphs:
Mutilate, Hunger for Blood and either Tricks of the Trade or Fan of Knives depending on your tastes.
Priorities:
1. Is SnD up? If not put it up.
2. Is a bleed up on the target? If not put up one(doesn't matter how many combo point you use for rupture, or you could Vanish and Garrote)
3. Is Hunger for Blood up? If not put it up.
4. Is the answer to 1,2 and 3 yes? Than spam Envenom at 4/5 Combo points.
Rupture Muti Build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0ef0exoVboIuVo0xV0xcZb
Glyphs:
Mutilate, Hunger for Blood, and Rupture.
Priorities:
1. Is SnD up? If not put it up.
2. Is Rupture up? If not put it up at 4/5 Combo points.
3. Is Hunger for Blood up? If not put it up.
4. Is the answer to 1,2 and 3 yes? Than spam Envenom at 4/5 Combo points.
Weapon speeds don't matter, just go for highest DPS daggers you can get in both hands. Though in general Slow/Fast>Fast/Fast>Slow/Slow.
Deadly on faster weapon, Instant on Slower. If same speed weapons Deadly on Main Hand Instant on Off Hand.
Arpen is worthless for Muti, gem AP or AP/Haste and the one Nightmare tear for your meta.
There ya go, Mutilate simplified(I hope).
Ruptureless Muti Build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0ec0egoVboIuVo0xV0xcZb
Glyphs:
Mutilate, Hunger for Blood and either Tricks of the Trade or Fan of Knives depending on your tastes.
Priorities:
1. Is SnD up? If not put it up.
2. Is a bleed up on the target? If not put up one(doesn't matter how many combo point you use for rupture, or you could Vanish and Garrote)
3. Is Hunger for Blood up? If not put it up.
4. Is the answer to 1,2 and 3 yes? Than spam Envenom at 4/5 Combo points.
Rupture Muti Build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#f0ef0exoVboIuVo0xV0xcZb
Glyphs:
Mutilate, Hunger for Blood, and Rupture.
Priorities:
1. Is SnD up? If not put it up.
2. Is Rupture up? If not put it up at 4/5 Combo points.
3. Is Hunger for Blood up? If not put it up.
4. Is the answer to 1,2 and 3 yes? Than spam Envenom at 4/5 Combo points.
Weapon speeds don't matter, just go for highest DPS daggers you can get in both hands. Though in general Slow/Fast>Fast/Fast>Slow/Slow.
Deadly on faster weapon, Instant on Slower. If same speed weapons Deadly on Main Hand Instant on Off Hand.
Arpen is worthless for Muti, gem AP or AP/Haste and the one Nightmare tear for your meta.
There ya go, Mutilate simplified(I hope).
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