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DK Tanking: Bryntroll vs Citadel EnforcerFollow

#1 Jan 06 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
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Hey guys, Just curious what you all think about this..

I've been tanking with the Citadel Enforcer's Claymore http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50761#comments for a bit now. I really have liked it. The 103 hit on it frees up a lot of geming options.

However in 25 man tonight, Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter dropped http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50415#comments and my guild was rather insistent that I take it.. Oh best in slot, 2 gem slots, blah blah..

The lack of secondary stats on it seems like a real drawback. Especially seeing as how the proc rate on the life steal seems to be somewhere around 15%. To lose 103 hit not to mention the 73 crit for 13 str, 100 dps and a gem slot? I'm really not sure, if it is an upgrade I feel as if it is marginal.

So, I bring it to you lot. I'm sure those of you much more advanced in theory crafting than I have already done all the maths to be done on this, and I would kindly appreciate whatever advise you have. here's my DK http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eitrigg&n=Thelonius

Admittedly with the dodge debuff in ICC it is nice to be able to be throwing mitigation gems in your weapon, but at the cost of 100 hit? I don't know..

Thanks in advance guys, and happy raiding.. =)
#2 Jan 06 2010 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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A. Please don't socket a Brynn with a Parry Gem. You're KILLING me. If you absolutely must have that... 6 str... Socket Bonus, go for +10 Str/15 Stam or +10 Dodge/15 Stam.

B. Go Brynn. I don't really like the weapon all that much, but it is the better choice. You shouldn't really be gemming for hit with or without it in the first place. Plus, Crit is far less useful for Frost than other specs. And the DpS from Brynn should make up for the lack of hit.

Single target, Brynn will win out. AoE, I'm not sure. It depends on whether or not the proc can come from HB or not. But your Blasts will still be larger with Brynn than the Claymore.

C. You are 5 over Def cap. That isn't bad, but the gems bringing you there are. Any Def/Stam gems should be changed.

D. See if you can replace Ick's Rotting Thumb with the Triumph trinket or The Black Heart. It really isn't that good.

E. You are wasting some talent points. Don't go for Acclimation, it's not a good talent. And you have no reason to wast points for Icy Reach. Death Chill is also kinda meh, since KM procs are so common. Improved IT will boost your threat and reduce your incoming damage. Two-Handed Weapon specialization is a 2% boost to everything but IT and HB. Unholy Command should be a waste of points. You already have two taunts. If you need to bring a caster in closer, silence it.
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#3 Jan 06 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Hey, thank you for the input.. In light of some of the points you made, i have more questions. =)

A) With the loss of 20 dodge in ICC Mitigation becomes paramount doesn't it? I need to rune strike, and to rune strike I need to dodge or parry, not to mention not wanting to hear the QQ from my healers that DK's take such spikey damage cause they don't block blah blah.. I really felt as if the mitigation would be of much more benefit than stam or str. It wasn't about the socket bonus, that I could care less about, But I am around 48k hp raid buffed, I didnt think stam was all that important..

B) I appreciate the advice, It was late when I got it last night, I'll go whack on some dummies today and see.

C) I'm 5 over the def cap because I was SO FAR over the def cap, that I can stop using Gargoyle on my weapon. The stam / def gems are basicaly for slot bonuses whilst allowing me to use a dps rune on my weapon.

D) I have the 50 frost badge trinket, the uber version of essence of gossomer. However again, Mitigation > Stam in ICC isn't it? Thats the only reason I have the thumb equipped. Thats alot of dodge in a place where they take most of my dodge away.

E)I appreciate this a lot as well.. When I go to whack on the dummies later I'll respec while I'm at it and see what kind of returns it brings.

Again thank you for your time.. I'd really like to hear your take on the mitigation vs stam in ICC though. I thought it was a no brainer, mitigation all the way, But that Festergut fight last night?? well, on the 3rd inhale, he hits like a truck, there is not much in this game that can 2 shot me but he did it twice last night but for an extra couple hundred HP I still tend to think that i want him to miss me more than to absorb more dmg.. But, thats why I'm asking.. If I were 100% positive there would be no need for questions. =)

Thanks..
#4 Jan 06 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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The thing is, Parry is a really bad stat. It has very harsh DRs, so you get a mediocre amount of avoidance from 20 Parry. 20 Dodge gives way more. Also to note, I think you mean avoidance. Mitigation comes from things like armor, that reduce the damage you take per hit. Avoidance is the chance to avoid a hit. They have important distinctions, though it may not seem that way at first.

I still wouldn't recommend 20 Dodge, but it is a much wiser decision than 20 Parry.

In general, for progression, the more Stam you can get the better. Because it is the biggest factor in determining if you live or die. What I mean is, avoidance can be great for keeping you from taking damage. And mitigation is great for decreasing the chance for a blow to kill you.

But if a boss can deal out 15K auto-attacks on top of his special abilities, Stam is very important to give healers the chance to save you. Because a lot of damage (magical) can't be avoided with talents.

Now, as you adjust to content, you end up needing less stam--your avoidance, and mitigation goes up, as well as the healer's ability to keep you alive. Plus, you both learn how to better predict damage spikes, and can plan accordingly. But for progression, it's always a good decision.

Plus, I haven't heard reports of DKs getting hit hard by the reduction in RSs. 20% reduction in Dodge =/= 20% fewer RSs. Because many of your procs go unused, due to RP constraints and auto-attack timers. They buffed RS by 13%, probably to accommodate for that. Unless you are finding yourself having serious threat issues, you are fine. And, even if you are, I recommend Str or Hit gems over Parry. Debatable with Dodge.

I don't have any experience with ICC, so I can't comment on stats with specific regards to the instance. But, generally speaking, stam is the best you can do for progression. Don't just ignore the other stats, and if a socket bonus is going to offer 9+ Stam *maybe as low as 7 depending on your stats), a 10/15 gem is probably better, but just keep that in mind.

An example with Parry:

My DK is heroic geared, and has 503 Parry Rating. His unbuffed chance is 17.77%.
He has 549 Dodge. His unbuffed chance is 25.52%.
I am one Def over cap, which adds a little to both.

Your DK has 714 Parry, which is 20.25%.
Your DK has 709 Dodge, which is 28.25%.

An increase in 160 Dodge from me to you yielded a 2.73% increase in chance to Dodge.
An increase in 211 Parry from me to you yielded a 2.48% increase in chance to Parry.

As you can see, Parry is hit by DR where Dodge is not.

Also, while this seems confusing at first, 2% Dodge is higher avoidance than 2% Parry. That is because Dodge comes first on the hit table, so you get more chances to Dodge than you do Parry.

I'd guess you have over a 1% difference in chances there (with Dodge being at least 1% more likely to activate than Parry). Now imagine if you shifted those Parry gems to Dodge/Stam or Dodge...

As for runes...

I'd guess the best options for you would be, in this order:

1. Rune of SSG=Sword Shattering (debatable)
Rune of SSG would give you 3% avoidance (1% of which can't proc RS) and at least 530 more health (more when buffed).
Sword Shattering will give you 4% Parry and disarm resistance.

2. Rune of Fallen Crusader
15% Str for you is 209.4, and more when buffed. That's, like, 420 AP. 420 AP will boost your HB, before any +% modifiers, by 84 damage. That's pretty awesome. And it also buffs your Auto-Attacks, your diseases, your DnD, your ITs, your BBs. 209.4 Strength is 55 Parry rating when procced, which isn't much, but it's something.

And you get a 2% heal.

3. Razorice, assuming you can keep it up (does it proc off of Rune Strikes?) is a 10% increase to only HB, IT and FF. Not BAD by any means, but it doesn't offer much more threat than Fallen Crusader, and I'm not convinced that it will offer more at all, and lacks any secondary support which the others do (stam, heals, disarm resist).
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IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
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#5 Jan 07 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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Spectacular mate.. Thank you for your time and effort..

It's my anniversary, so I won't be playing to try out all the great info, but I sure will be this weekend..

Again thanks a lot, it's greatly appreciated..
#6 Jan 14 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Only a 15% proc, but zero internal cooldown. It will proc over and over. It is literally the best DK tanking weapon in the game and you would be insane not to use it.

edit: It procs from everything too, my judgements, crusader strikes, divine storm and so on. Before it was stealth nerfed via a hotfix, it also used to proc from my seal of corruption-procced holy damage. Drain Life accounted for nearly 10% of my total dps (and healed for that amount also).

Edited, Jan 14th 2010 5:15pm by ArtemisEnteri
#7 Jan 31 2010 at 5:49 AM Rating: Good
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7,732 posts
As a JC, I have refused to learn any gem with parry on it to help discourage people from being bad.
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