The FAQ says not to ever use this while DPSing, and I've read that elsewhere as well, but every DPS DK I run with opens with Death and Decay. Is the FAQ outdated in this respect, or is DandD still a terrible use of runes for a DPSing DK?
Thanks in advance :) Just want to make sure I'm not missing out on something here.
btw, my DK's armory is here if anyone feels like critiquing it *whistle* I'm sure my specs are all messed up >.<
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Death and Decay: quick q.Follow
DnD is an aoe attack. So the general rule of aoe spells is 3 mobs or more to use them.
I didn't look, but if you're unholy it is pretty much a mandatory aoe seeing as it gets buffed when you get your diseases up on your targets.
I didn't look, but if you're unholy it is pretty much a mandatory aoe seeing as it gets buffed when you get your diseases up on your targets.
As Frost DW DPS, I don't use DnD. It will mess with my rotation.
The only time I DO use it is if the tank dies, and I need to die next. I change to Frost pres and use DnD to gain hate.
The only time I DO use it is if the tank dies, and I need to die next. I change to Frost pres and use DnD to gain hate.
I only use it in really AoE *********** type places. There has to be a clear advantage to my using it.
The FaQ is VERY outdated. This class has changed more than any other since that was written. Most of the abilities that were awesome closer to launch are completely different now.
So...
Blood and Unholy use it for DpS, Frost does not. It isn't HUGE DpS, but it is better AoE than we can pump out using those runes otherwise. You just need to not put it down when there are only 2 mobs.
So...
Blood and Unholy use it for DpS, Frost does not. It isn't HUGE DpS, but it is better AoE than we can pump out using those runes otherwise. You just need to not put it down when there are only 2 mobs.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
Blood and Unholy use it for DpS, Frost does not. It isn't HUGE DpS, but it is better AoE than we can pump out using those runes otherwise. You just need to not put it down when there are only 2 mobs.
Tbh, I think I dish out more damage with a Blood Boil and a Death Strike (Which allows for 3 Blood Boils ~8 seconds later) than if I were to throw down D&D. The only time I use it 'for DPS' is when I need to take snap aggro or want to take care of a continous stream of 1-hit-kill AOE mobs.
Death and Decay tooltip wrote:
... This ability produces a high amount of threat.
When Unholy I use it when in a very large group of mobs and a competent tank. Otherwise I've been seeing it abused in 5-mans to no real gain. And to be honest, it annoys the crap out of me when I'm tanking on my warrior to see DPS DKs pop it down.
It's only ever an issue for me if the DK that uses it is already pumping out high threat.
Then again, as a DK tank, I have easier tools to deal with people that pump out high AoE DpS.
I HAVE had to ask people not to use it before, though.
Then again, as a DK tank, I have easier tools to deal with people that pump out high AoE DpS.
I HAVE had to ask people not to use it before, though.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
My last analysis pointed to IT/PS/Pest giving more actual damage to gathered mobs without the added threat multiplier (as Unholy). That was, um 3.1-ish? So it may have changed since then, but I tend to doubt it. I get the feeling that DnD has always been intended to be a tanking tool.
EDIT: And the threat that Kiz can put out when she's DPSing is impressive =) Omen watching is fun times.
Edited, Dec 31st 2009 2:40pm by TherionSaysWhat
EDIT: And the threat that Kiz can put out when she's DPSing is impressive =) Omen watching is fun times.
Edited, Dec 31st 2009 2:40pm by TherionSaysWhat
Quote:
My last analysis pointed to IT/PS/Pest giving more actual damage to gathered mobs without the added threat multiplier (as Unholy). That was, um 3.1-ish? So it may have changed since then, but I tend to doubt it. I get the feeling that DnD has always been intended to be a tanking tool.
I don't understand the logic here, though. DnD and Diseases aren't mutually exclusive. Rather, they boost DnD's damage for all specs (just by a lot in Unholy).
DnD IS intended to be a tanking tool. The question is whether or not it is better AoE to use it instead of BB (or HS, in Blood's case). Because you would only use it in a situation with multiple mobs.
Quick Napkin math:
DnD=62 base damage every second for 10 seconds.
Base AP Coefficient .0475.
So, with 4K AP, that's 252 damage every second for 10 seconds for 3 runes, with NO modifiers factored in (2520 damage overall, for 4788 threat without any -threat talents considered).
Blood Boil
Average base damage= 200
AP Coefficient with a disease=.095
So, with 4K AP and no modifiers, that is 580 damage per. With the 30% boost, that is 754 damage. Using DS means you get 3 BBs instead of a DnD (you DON'T gain a DS, since you convert it to two BBs, you just use the runes in a different spot).
So, a Blood DK would get 2262 damage out of using BBs. That is less than the overall DpS offered by DnD.
Every other talent in the tree boosts both equally, as far as I can tell. I'm also assuming that the 4K AP includes the 10% bonus from a Hunter or yourself.
The question for Blood is twofold.
Can your tank can handle that much threat output?
At what point does using DnD or BB become superior to focusing on HS?
For Frost, the water is much murkier. Since they don't have rotations that are easy to compare, I'm not gonna venture into that...
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Thank you guys for the input, I appreciate it :) I know when I'm tanking on my Paladin I really couldn't care less how much threat the DPS are pumping out, so I see DandD and just go "meh", but I can see where as a Warrior it might be problematic.
I'll try using this now and see where my DPS goes. Again, many thanks :) (and I'll keep checking in on this thread to see if the conversation continues ;) )
EDIT: and yes, for any that don't look at my Armory, I am Unholy for DPS :)
Edited, Dec 31st 2009 3:44pm by Maulgak
I'll try using this now and see where my DPS goes. Again, many thanks :) (and I'll keep checking in on this thread to see if the conversation continues ;) )
EDIT: and yes, for any that don't look at my Armory, I am Unholy for DPS :)
Edited, Dec 31st 2009 3:44pm by Maulgak
Quote:
I only use it in really AoE cluster@#%^ type places
I tend to use it in the above situations, usually when the tank bites off a little more than he can chew. kind of an Oh S#!t button of sorts.
Quote:
When Unholy I use it when in a very large group of mobs and a competent tank.
bolded for emphasis of the above statement. you need a good tank to be able to effectively use it while DPSing. I'll wait for the tank to get good aggro before dropping it.
Edited, Jan 2nd 2010 3:07am by bigbadchubbs
When I looked into comparing DnD to IT/PS/Pest to set up BB (as Unholy), that was the extent. Purely a test of which was the higher damage-to-rune-use ratio. Essentially if there were 4 mobs there was a slightly better damage ratio to spreading the diseases with those three runes rather than blowing a DnD right off. I didn't test for the delay in IT/PS/Pest ("ramp up time"). Nor did I do a full DPS model of the intended rotation beyond some fast math and pulling numbers from recount to use in the fast maths.
I'm sure a more detailed analysis could be done, but my current interests are optimizing (ish) for 5-toon content and not for raiding DPS. Honestly I'm really enjoying not having the part-time job of raiding/theorycrafting for raid/farming for buffs-pots-flasks/etc.
And it's not a question of BB vs. DnD in my view. It's a question of comparing resource cost to practical damage output that I'm interested in. Also don't forget that with BB we're assuming disease spreading anyway, otherwise BB kinda blows. Which potentially leads to a valley in DPS output while waiting for the runes to come off CD from popping DnD. Ugh... I dunno, seems like a pain to model all the variables if you include time and variation in the rotation.
If anything, I'd guess that IT/PS/Pest-->BB would be better to start with and DnD might function well in the second (and fourth) iteration of the cycle. But, again, I don't know that I'm willing to dig into my math model and start futzing around with it to find if there's a 0.3% difference between them.
As for Blood and HS, 4 mobs was my break-point as well. More than 4 and it's BB spam, fewer and it's HS all the way. Seemed to work better that way in Ulduar 25s when I was Blood for raid.
I'm sure a more detailed analysis could be done, but my current interests are optimizing (ish) for 5-toon content and not for raiding DPS. Honestly I'm really enjoying not having the part-time job of raiding/theorycrafting for raid/farming for buffs-pots-flasks/etc.
And it's not a question of BB vs. DnD in my view. It's a question of comparing resource cost to practical damage output that I'm interested in. Also don't forget that with BB we're assuming disease spreading anyway, otherwise BB kinda blows. Which potentially leads to a valley in DPS output while waiting for the runes to come off CD from popping DnD. Ugh... I dunno, seems like a pain to model all the variables if you include time and variation in the rotation.
If anything, I'd guess that IT/PS/Pest-->BB would be better to start with and DnD might function well in the second (and fourth) iteration of the cycle. But, again, I don't know that I'm willing to dig into my math model and start futzing around with it to find if there's a 0.3% difference between them.
As for Blood and HS, 4 mobs was my break-point as well. More than 4 and it's BB spam, fewer and it's HS all the way. Seemed to work better that way in Ulduar 25s when I was Blood for raid.
I just don't understand the point you are trying to make with the disease spreading vs. DnD, that's all. Because I would never imagine that you would place it WITHOUT spreading diseases (and it is obvious that higher DpS is reached doing it after they are on the target, since they boost its damage by at least 10%).
As for damage per rune cost, that is kinda irrelevant as well. Because using all your highest ratio attacks isn't possible. The only way to gain any useful info is if you examine how many you can actually use. It wouldn't matter if BB did 20% more damage per rune, if you can still only use it twice. The only way you can actually gut usable data is to determine the actual number of attacks you can launch.
I mean, if my highest damage attack per rune was Icy Touch, but Plague Strike was pitiful, you wouldn't say that you should prioritize IT over SS (assuming, of course, that diseases don't need to be refreshed). Because SS is greater than IT+PS, despite it having a lower damage-to-rune ratio than IT.
Of course, this isn't actually true in game--my SSs have a higher damage-to-rune ratio. It's just an example.
If that wasn't your point, I apologize for the post. I just don't understand what the overall theme of it is.
As for damage per rune cost, that is kinda irrelevant as well. Because using all your highest ratio attacks isn't possible. The only way to gain any useful info is if you examine how many you can actually use. It wouldn't matter if BB did 20% more damage per rune, if you can still only use it twice. The only way you can actually gut usable data is to determine the actual number of attacks you can launch.
I mean, if my highest damage attack per rune was Icy Touch, but Plague Strike was pitiful, you wouldn't say that you should prioritize IT over SS (assuming, of course, that diseases don't need to be refreshed). Because SS is greater than IT+PS, despite it having a lower damage-to-rune ratio than IT.
Of course, this isn't actually true in game--my SSs have a higher damage-to-rune ratio. It's just an example.
If that wasn't your point, I apologize for the post. I just don't understand what the overall theme of it is.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Death & Decay is awesome on packs. In Pit of Saron it came out as my number one damage dealer, simply because almost every pull was packs. On a pack of 5 mobs, DnD will come out as top damage done, just ahead of Frost Fever and Blood Plague. When DnD ticks crit for 1k, it's some serious damage being put out.
Edited, Jan 4th 2010 6:27am by Mazra
Edited, Jan 4th 2010 6:27am by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
It's the same rule that every other AoE class uses, if it's a cluster of mobs or more than 2, but the more the better, DnD will be a good DPS toll simply because even if your other attacks have a a higher damage to rune ratio, it's only on one target, where with the use of 3 runes you can hit every freakin thing that steps into it.
I use it constantly in the new 5-mans because there are packs everywhere (except in FoS where there are only a few), almost every dungeon has places where there are hordes of mobs attacking at once, especially with the advent of no CC needed to clear dungeons and AoE tanking becoming commonplace.
TBH though, I'm not sure it really matters all that much, in dungeons and raids isn't simply finishing the point? and on trash where everyone knows the DPS numbers are skewed the point is to just kill everything and move on right? who cares how it's done as long as you live to get the loot and the emblems at the end right?
Boss fights have always been where DPS number crunching was crucial, and if any DPS class is using AoE attacks on a single mob boss fight, besides a tank (DnD, Consecration, Thunderclap, etc....) they're retarded anyway, so what's this discussion about again?
I use it constantly in the new 5-mans because there are packs everywhere (except in FoS where there are only a few), almost every dungeon has places where there are hordes of mobs attacking at once, especially with the advent of no CC needed to clear dungeons and AoE tanking becoming commonplace.
TBH though, I'm not sure it really matters all that much, in dungeons and raids isn't simply finishing the point? and on trash where everyone knows the DPS numbers are skewed the point is to just kill everything and move on right? who cares how it's done as long as you live to get the loot and the emblems at the end right?
Boss fights have always been where DPS number crunching was crucial, and if any DPS class is using AoE attacks on a single mob boss fight, besides a tank (DnD, Consecration, Thunderclap, etc....) they're retarded anyway, so what's this discussion about again?
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