Okay, first off my armory: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Aerie+Peak&n=Zoltarn
I know I've got 3 tanking items - rings & neck - but I'm working to replace them as a priority. What else should I be doing with my gear beyond accumulating and spending emblems of triumph/frost?
Secondly I'm pulling around 2500-2800 dps in heroics, which I've been told isn't enough for the new 5-mans. My general rotation is IT-PS-Pestilence & Blood Boil (if there's more than 2 mobs) - DS- and then random stuff between DC/SS/DS depending what's not cooling down.
I used to use OB but since it removes diseases, I either have to reload them or my damage drops big style. Is it really worth the effort?
I seem to have forgotten to use Bone Shield, looking at my talents. Is that worth the effort too - is the 2% damage increase worth talenting for or should I have done something different?
Sorry for all the questions but I'm really looking for advice about whether I'm on the right track or should I be going in a different direction.
EDIT: I'll be adding enchants this weekend.
EDIT2: It's Death Strike that gives the Desolation thing - that's what I use, not Heart Strike. D'oh!
Edited, Dec 31st 2009 4:42am by Leodis
Edited, Dec 31st 2009 4:57am by Leodis
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New DK looking for DPS adviceFollow
Blood uses Death Strike and Heart Strike.
Frost uses Obliterate and Blood Strike.
Unholy uses Scourge Strike and Blood Strike.
Don't use Oblit as anything but Blood. It's a DpS loss. Our diseases are pretty big damage. Mine tic for 400 DpS, and I'm a tank. Frost uses it because the tree offers quite a few Oblit bonus. Most importantly, with one of them, it won't consume a Disease.
Scourge Strike is physical in part, like the other two. But, unlike Oblit and DS, it also has a large "second hit" as shadow damage. That means it gets a bonus from Ebon Plaguebringer (+13% damage).
You'll probably see better DpS gemming for Strength than Expertise or Hit. If the socket bonus is worth it, go for a Strength/x gem instead. Especially in your helm, as you are already over the soft cap for hit.
You should strive to always have BS up. 2% additional damage and 20% mitigation is pretty good. Is it going to matter in Heroics? Probably not. But you'll want to get into the habit of keeping it up for raids.
And Horn of Winter. Don't forget you have that. And don't be afraid to use it in battle whenever you have a free GCD. It will replenish your buff and give you 10 RP.
Ideal generalized rotation for your build is:
PS – IT – BS – SS – BS – DC – HoW
SS – BS – SS – BS – DC – DC– (DC)
PS first means you are getting 23% more damage from your Icy Touch. If you do IT first, you lose that. BS puts up the 5% damage boost. SS is your hard-hitting strike. Then you use your second Blood Rune, then Death Coil. Use HoW for 10 RP. Scourge Strike, replenish Desolation, Scourge Strike, blood rune and then unload all RP you can through DCs.
Pretty straightforward. I have no clue why you don't just BS twice in a row though. That has always confused me...
Multiple Targets gets more annoying, especially as you don't have the glyph of pestilence. Basically, you want to put down DnD every 30 seconds, and your diseases should always be up. Using Desolation in place of a BB if it isn't up is superior DpS. Other than that, it is a lot like the ST one.
PS>IT>Pest>DnD>DC>HoW
SS>BS>SS>BB>DC>DC
Something like that.
I wouldn't switch to AoE mode until there are 3 or more targets personally. Things will die too fast to bother burning your DnD. You DO have to Pest though.
Frost uses Obliterate and Blood Strike.
Unholy uses Scourge Strike and Blood Strike.
Don't use Oblit as anything but Blood. It's a DpS loss. Our diseases are pretty big damage. Mine tic for 400 DpS, and I'm a tank. Frost uses it because the tree offers quite a few Oblit bonus. Most importantly, with one of them, it won't consume a Disease.
Scourge Strike is physical in part, like the other two. But, unlike Oblit and DS, it also has a large "second hit" as shadow damage. That means it gets a bonus from Ebon Plaguebringer (+13% damage).
You'll probably see better DpS gemming for Strength than Expertise or Hit. If the socket bonus is worth it, go for a Strength/x gem instead. Especially in your helm, as you are already over the soft cap for hit.
You should strive to always have BS up. 2% additional damage and 20% mitigation is pretty good. Is it going to matter in Heroics? Probably not. But you'll want to get into the habit of keeping it up for raids.
And Horn of Winter. Don't forget you have that. And don't be afraid to use it in battle whenever you have a free GCD. It will replenish your buff and give you 10 RP.
Ideal generalized rotation for your build is:
PS – IT – BS – SS – BS – DC – HoW
SS – BS – SS – BS – DC – DC– (DC)
PS first means you are getting 23% more damage from your Icy Touch. If you do IT first, you lose that. BS puts up the 5% damage boost. SS is your hard-hitting strike. Then you use your second Blood Rune, then Death Coil. Use HoW for 10 RP. Scourge Strike, replenish Desolation, Scourge Strike, blood rune and then unload all RP you can through DCs.
Pretty straightforward. I have no clue why you don't just BS twice in a row though. That has always confused me...
Multiple Targets gets more annoying, especially as you don't have the glyph of pestilence. Basically, you want to put down DnD every 30 seconds, and your diseases should always be up. Using Desolation in place of a BB if it isn't up is superior DpS. Other than that, it is a lot like the ST one.
PS>IT>Pest>DnD>DC>HoW
SS>BS>SS>BB>DC>DC
Something like that.
I wouldn't switch to AoE mode until there are 3 or more targets personally. Things will die too fast to bother burning your DnD. You DO have to Pest though.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Well first, let's look at this from a practical standpoint. This may seem off, but give me a break, I'm working without coffee here.
Death Strike without the glyph for it isn't that great of an ability. It does less damage than Obliterate if you aren't specced into Blood. Also, consider that it has the same cost of both Obliterate and Scourge Strike. If you are not Blood, in a DPS role it is not worth using.
And now onto Obliterate. I used to love this ability SO much. It was OP, it did exactly what it's name said. Sadly, it lost it's practical uses for Blood after Death Strike got it's buff. Like you said it will kill your diseases, costing you some precious time in reapplying them. Losing my diseases on a target is something I really hate, as it takes me out of my groove when I'm cheerfully bashing the hell out of whatever the tank is fighting. Now, you can get around it by speccing 13 points into Frost (Before the Death Strike buff this is what I would do). However, there's a much better option open for you as an Unholy Death Knight:
Scourge Strike. Just read the tip and do the math here. 50% Damage, plus 25% for each disease. As Unholy, you have 3 diseases. 125% damage, more potential than a fully charged up Death Strike, and the fact that you don't have to use valuable talent points to have it not consume diseases.
Advice: Forget you have Death Strike and Obliterate, stick with Scourge Strike.
As far as your spec...you should work on it a little, and consider moving some of those Blood Talents into Frost, reason being to increase your Shadow damage, something that will give you even more damage to Scourge Strike. With Black Ice, combined with Necrosis, you're getting an auto-attack that does 130% damage, compared to 104% with the two handed weapon spec, not to mention Unholy revolves heavily around Shadow Damage.
Also, I notice you didn't have Ghoul Frenzy. GET IT. When I was Unholy, I used a nifty macro to offset that Unholy Rune. /cast Blood Tap /cast Ghoul Frenzy. It had it's uses, and double fun for the glyph (I see no practical reason to get the Horn of Winter glyph, to be honest).
This is what I would use assuming I was playing as Unholy and was going strictly by instinct:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jZG0xZfMhItcdt0uxzuIqo:ArM0mc
As for bone shied, yes, keep it up when you can.
Onto Gear. I don't know how to do that fancy linking, but here's what I'll suggest for the time being.
HELMET: Get the T9 one, make do with what you have. 2800 DPS isn't BAD for random heroics (assuming it's not ICC).
CHEST: T9.
Trinkets: I prefer the Mirror of Truth, even though it's a Heroism one, I just like having the proc with one less thing to worry about. I'd also suggest you start pugging Ulduar 10 strictly to get a kill on Flame Leviathan for the Pyrite Infuser. Those two, combined with the T9 2-set bonus and the sigil you have, has an awesome synergy.
As for the weapon, well, I don't know what kind of player you are, I was lucky enough to get Ironsoul out of an Ulduar run, and short of a little luck in ICC, chances are I'm going to be using that until Cataclysm. You could do worse than the Titansteel Destroyer, though.
I"m sure with a little research on places like ElitistJerks you could find a more optimal spec.
If you're curious about going Blood, let me know.
Death Strike without the glyph for it isn't that great of an ability. It does less damage than Obliterate if you aren't specced into Blood. Also, consider that it has the same cost of both Obliterate and Scourge Strike. If you are not Blood, in a DPS role it is not worth using.
And now onto Obliterate. I used to love this ability SO much. It was OP, it did exactly what it's name said. Sadly, it lost it's practical uses for Blood after Death Strike got it's buff. Like you said it will kill your diseases, costing you some precious time in reapplying them. Losing my diseases on a target is something I really hate, as it takes me out of my groove when I'm cheerfully bashing the hell out of whatever the tank is fighting. Now, you can get around it by speccing 13 points into Frost (Before the Death Strike buff this is what I would do). However, there's a much better option open for you as an Unholy Death Knight:
Scourge Strike. Just read the tip and do the math here. 50% Damage, plus 25% for each disease. As Unholy, you have 3 diseases. 125% damage, more potential than a fully charged up Death Strike, and the fact that you don't have to use valuable talent points to have it not consume diseases.
Advice: Forget you have Death Strike and Obliterate, stick with Scourge Strike.
As far as your spec...you should work on it a little, and consider moving some of those Blood Talents into Frost, reason being to increase your Shadow damage, something that will give you even more damage to Scourge Strike. With Black Ice, combined with Necrosis, you're getting an auto-attack that does 130% damage, compared to 104% with the two handed weapon spec, not to mention Unholy revolves heavily around Shadow Damage.
Also, I notice you didn't have Ghoul Frenzy. GET IT. When I was Unholy, I used a nifty macro to offset that Unholy Rune. /cast Blood Tap /cast Ghoul Frenzy. It had it's uses, and double fun for the glyph (I see no practical reason to get the Horn of Winter glyph, to be honest).
This is what I would use assuming I was playing as Unholy and was going strictly by instinct:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jZG0xZfMhItcdt0uxzuIqo:ArM0mc
As for bone shied, yes, keep it up when you can.
Onto Gear. I don't know how to do that fancy linking, but here's what I'll suggest for the time being.
HELMET: Get the T9 one, make do with what you have. 2800 DPS isn't BAD for random heroics (assuming it's not ICC).
CHEST: T9.
Trinkets: I prefer the Mirror of Truth, even though it's a Heroism one, I just like having the proc with one less thing to worry about. I'd also suggest you start pugging Ulduar 10 strictly to get a kill on Flame Leviathan for the Pyrite Infuser. Those two, combined with the T9 2-set bonus and the sigil you have, has an awesome synergy.
As for the weapon, well, I don't know what kind of player you are, I was lucky enough to get Ironsoul out of an Ulduar run, and short of a little luck in ICC, chances are I'm going to be using that until Cataclysm. You could do worse than the Titansteel Destroyer, though.
I"m sure with a little research on places like ElitistJerks you could find a more optimal spec.
If you're curious about going Blood, let me know.
"Do you know what "nemesis" means? A righteous infliction of retribution manifested by an appropriate agent. Personified in this case by an 'orrible c*** : me."
Thanks for the help so far. I'll be looking for +str gems to replace +expertise and I'll get that disease glyph. I've my eye on that for a while, wondering how good it was, so that's on my shopping list now. I know I have too much +hit as well - I went for Draenei specifically for the +1% hit bonus so why I went for that gem, I'll never know.
I'm a bit confused about Ghoul Frenzy - it's rare for my ghoul to die - and the whole frost thing. Black Ice increases your frost+shadow damage by 10% but since auto-attack is physical, surely you only get the +10% bonus to Necrosis, so you get 122%? With 2-hand specialization you get 124%.
Bone shield I'll certainly be using now. Thanks for that.
Is corpse explosion any good? I can't think I've seen anyone with that.
I'm a bit confused about Ghoul Frenzy - it's rare for my ghoul to die - and the whole frost thing. Black Ice increases your frost+shadow damage by 10% but since auto-attack is physical, surely you only get the +10% bonus to Necrosis, so you get 122%? With 2-hand specialization you get 124%.
Bone shield I'll certainly be using now. Thanks for that.
Is corpse explosion any good? I can't think I've seen anyone with that.
Black Ice is more for the Scourge Strike and Deathcoil. Also boosts your diseases, Icy Touch and Plaguestrike. Only attack in your rotation that isnt buffed by Black Ice is Blood Strike.
That [EDIT] (This refers to the OP's Build) [/EDIT] is the optimal Unholy Spec until you have T10.
And Ghoul Frenzy is only worth it if it would keep your ghoul from dying. It's a DpS loss now to waste a SS for GF.
Were those glyphs selected on purpose? Because Unholy Blight is an AWFUL glyph. Look at it this way. UB does 10% of a DC. UB glyph makes that 14%. So, if your DC hits for 1K, UB does 140 damage over 10 seconds.
Now, replace UB with Dark Death. Your DC hits for 1150 damage. You lose 35 damage on UB, yes, but you gain 115.
That gap only gets larger as you get bigger DCs.
Bone Shield isn't an impressive glyph either. It will last, in theory, 25% longer, sure. But it SHOULD last more than a minute as it is (as a tank, that is getting targeted hits, mine will last 30 seconds-1 minute).
Look at it this way. If a Boss fight lasts 5 minutes, how many charges are you going to expel. Is 1 more bone going to be the difference between a recast or not? You are going to put it up nearly the same number of times in a fight anyway, so you aren't actually likely to gain much DpS from the glyph anyway. You'd have to cast BS at least once more without it to make it a DpS bonus, and even then it is only the difference between a SS and IT lost.
Scourge Strike is similarly terrible. You do okay damage with your Plague Strike and Icy Touch. Not stellar, but okay. Since SS doesn't refresh diseases anymore, all you do is repeat the second half of your rotation again.
So instead of:
[PS>IT>BS>BS>SS>DC>HoW
SS>SS>SS>DC>(DC)]repeat
You get...
[PS>IT>BS>BS>SS>DC>HoW>
SS>SS>SS>DC>(DC)>
SS>SS>BS>BS>DC] repeat.
Desolation only lasts 10 seconds, so you are doing 5% less damage some of the third line's strikes. Furthermore, your diseases may fall off near the end, leading to 23% less damage on your DCs before you can restart the circuit.
If you want to just cast diseases once, go with the Glyph of Pestilence, and replace your second BS with it. You will still get a Death Rune and your diseases will be refreshed to full. This IS a DpS boost. The earlier one probably is... but not by much.
Your glyphs should be Dark Death, Icy Touch and Ghoul. IT boosts FF by 20%. It will ALWAYS be on your target. It already does great DpS, and is boosted quite a bit by the Unholy tree. It boosts your Wandering Plague damage, as well.
Dark Death for the reason above. It is our third or fourth hardest hitting attack, which we will fire off 1-2 times every 10 seconds. 15% to it is great for a glyph.
Ghoul is a no-brainer for Unholy. Why would you recommend to get Ghoul Frenzy, Which is just 25% more white hits from the ghoul, but NOT recommend you get to boost your Ghoul's strength by 40% of your own? That's 441 strength for my ghoul in my Tank gear.
As for going down the Frost line... I get why you'd do it. And I thought it was a good idea as well. I honestly don't understand why Black Ice isn't considered awesome, but it has never been considered optimal DpS for Unholy. Going down the Blood tree is standard, and optimal according to TC.
61 Points in Unholy is LONG over. Like, two patches ago it was prime.
[EDIT]
Only 1 of your top 3 damage sources is boosted by Black Ice. I guess that's why. I SUPPOSE Necrosis is boosted, but I don't know. Still, that is likely why Black Ice isn't THAT awesome.
A ton of AP boosts your Auto-attack. Crit boosts everything, plus your Wandering Plague AND if you have T9. You get RP regen, and 9% crit to your second most damaging attack...
I guess that would trump 10% to the lesser attacks (and to part of your second-most damaging one).
Edited, Dec 31st 2009 11:05am by idiggory
Edited, Dec 31st 2009 11:06am by idiggory
And Ghoul Frenzy is only worth it if it would keep your ghoul from dying. It's a DpS loss now to waste a SS for GF.
Were those glyphs selected on purpose? Because Unholy Blight is an AWFUL glyph. Look at it this way. UB does 10% of a DC. UB glyph makes that 14%. So, if your DC hits for 1K, UB does 140 damage over 10 seconds.
Now, replace UB with Dark Death. Your DC hits for 1150 damage. You lose 35 damage on UB, yes, but you gain 115.
That gap only gets larger as you get bigger DCs.
Bone Shield isn't an impressive glyph either. It will last, in theory, 25% longer, sure. But it SHOULD last more than a minute as it is (as a tank, that is getting targeted hits, mine will last 30 seconds-1 minute).
Look at it this way. If a Boss fight lasts 5 minutes, how many charges are you going to expel. Is 1 more bone going to be the difference between a recast or not? You are going to put it up nearly the same number of times in a fight anyway, so you aren't actually likely to gain much DpS from the glyph anyway. You'd have to cast BS at least once more without it to make it a DpS bonus, and even then it is only the difference between a SS and IT lost.
Scourge Strike is similarly terrible. You do okay damage with your Plague Strike and Icy Touch. Not stellar, but okay. Since SS doesn't refresh diseases anymore, all you do is repeat the second half of your rotation again.
So instead of:
[PS>IT>BS>BS>SS>DC>HoW
SS>SS>SS>DC>(DC)]repeat
You get...
[PS>IT>BS>BS>SS>DC>HoW>
SS>SS>SS>DC>(DC)>
SS>SS>BS>BS>DC] repeat.
Desolation only lasts 10 seconds, so you are doing 5% less damage some of the third line's strikes. Furthermore, your diseases may fall off near the end, leading to 23% less damage on your DCs before you can restart the circuit.
If you want to just cast diseases once, go with the Glyph of Pestilence, and replace your second BS with it. You will still get a Death Rune and your diseases will be refreshed to full. This IS a DpS boost. The earlier one probably is... but not by much.
Your glyphs should be Dark Death, Icy Touch and Ghoul. IT boosts FF by 20%. It will ALWAYS be on your target. It already does great DpS, and is boosted quite a bit by the Unholy tree. It boosts your Wandering Plague damage, as well.
Dark Death for the reason above. It is our third or fourth hardest hitting attack, which we will fire off 1-2 times every 10 seconds. 15% to it is great for a glyph.
Ghoul is a no-brainer for Unholy. Why would you recommend to get Ghoul Frenzy, Which is just 25% more white hits from the ghoul, but NOT recommend you get to boost your Ghoul's strength by 40% of your own? That's 441 strength for my ghoul in my Tank gear.
As for going down the Frost line... I get why you'd do it. And I thought it was a good idea as well. I honestly don't understand why Black Ice isn't considered awesome, but it has never been considered optimal DpS for Unholy. Going down the Blood tree is standard, and optimal according to TC.
61 Points in Unholy is LONG over. Like, two patches ago it was prime.
[EDIT]
EJ Unholy thread wrote:
Your auto-attack will be the highest percent of your total damage, followed by your Scourge Strike and then your Ghoul. Scourge Strike will be your hardest hitting individual ability, followed distantly by Death Coil and its subsequent Unholy Blight.
Only 1 of your top 3 damage sources is boosted by Black Ice. I guess that's why. I SUPPOSE Necrosis is boosted, but I don't know. Still, that is likely why Black Ice isn't THAT awesome.
A ton of AP boosts your Auto-attack. Crit boosts everything, plus your Wandering Plague AND if you have T9. You get RP regen, and 9% crit to your second most damaging attack...
I guess that would trump 10% to the lesser attacks (and to part of your second-most damaging one).
Edited, Dec 31st 2009 11:05am by idiggory
Edited, Dec 31st 2009 11:06am by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Slightly off topic question but still relevant.
I ding 80(I'm 65 <.<), what spec should I go based on the gear initially available?
Or to be clearer, should I spec based on my gear or should I gear based on my spec? Are all 3 DPS spec, Blood, DW Frost, Unholy all viable with any level of gear? Or is based on the gear you have different specs better?
I ding 80(I'm 65 <.<), what spec should I go based on the gear initially available?
Or to be clearer, should I spec based on my gear or should I gear based on my spec? Are all 3 DPS spec, Blood, DW Frost, Unholy all viable with any level of gear? Or is based on the gear you have different specs better?
Quote:
Blood uses Death Strike and Heart Strike.
Frost uses Obliterate and Blood Strike.
Unholy uses Scourge Strike and Blood Strike.
Don't use Oblit as anything but Blood.
Frost uses Obliterate and Blood Strike.
Unholy uses Scourge Strike and Blood Strike.
Don't use Oblit as anything but Blood.
That doesn't make sense, I take it you meant Frost instead of Blood?
Quote:
Or to be clearer, should I spec based on my gear or should I gear based on my spec? Are all 3 DPS spec, Blood, DW Frost, Unholy all viable with any level of gear? Or is based on the gear you have different specs better?
Ehm, both go, really. I think Unholy is better than Blood if you're a fresh 80 because you won't have too much armor pen yet, but the difference is probably negligible seeing as being in heroic gear gives you enough armor pen to make Blood a good option for raids. Once you reach a certain amount of strength, armor pen and crit you should be able to respec at will without losing too much damage over it - while all three specs favour a different stat, your DPS should still be good enough if you were to go spec A in spec B's gear.
10 posts
I've read on Elitist Jerk that blood gets much better with armor penetration from mostly high-lvl gear. I think it's more a question of what spec you enjoy though. I've tried all trees for dps and haven't seen much difference in heroic dungeons, maybe a few hundred dps up or down. I didn't quite fall for unholy but both blood and frost dual-wield are a lot of fun.
Mozared wrote:
iDiggory wrote:
Quote:
Blood uses Death Strike and Heart Strike.
Frost uses Obliterate and Blood Strike.
Unholy uses Scourge Strike and Blood Strike.
Don't use Oblit as anything but Blood.
Blood uses Death Strike and Heart Strike.
Frost uses Obliterate and Blood Strike.
Unholy uses Scourge Strike and Blood Strike.
Don't use Oblit as anything but Blood.
That doesn't make sense, I take it you meant Frost instead of Blood?
Ummm, no.
Frost uses Obliterate and Blood Strike. Oblit is talented all through it, and doesn't absorb diseases as a result of the Frost tree. Blood Strike, from Frost, gives Death Runes.
Blood uses Death Strike. It gains damage and healing bonuses from the tree (and obliterate does not). It can also proc Abom's Might, and gives Death Runes. Heart Strike is the tree's signature strike.
I don't know why you are confused. This isn't even remotely debatable with the state of DK trees and abilities right now. If you use Oblit as Blood, you will lose a ton of DpS. If you use DS as Frost, you will lose a ton of DpS.
[EDIT]
Or were you referring to the strikes? Frost uses Oblit and Blood Strikes with their runes (anything that isn't placing/spreading diseases or HBs). Frost Strike is their runic dump, and replaces Death Coil. I only mentioned main rune-based strikes.
Edited, Dec 31st 2009 2:56pm by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
I don't know why you are confused.
Well,
Quote:
Blood uses Death Strike and Heart Strike.
Frost uses Obliterate and Blood Strike.
Unholy uses Scourge Strike and Blood Strike.
Don't use Oblit as anything but Blood. It's a DpS loss.
Frost uses Obliterate and Blood Strike.
Unholy uses Scourge Strike and Blood Strike.
Don't use Oblit as anything but Blood. It's a DpS loss.
Quote:
Blood uses Death Strike and Heart Strike.
Frost uses Obliterate and Blood Strike.
Frost uses Obliterate and Blood Strike.
Quote:
Don't use Oblit as anything but Blood. It's a DpS loss.
How does that make sense? You start by saying Blood uses DS and HS and Frost uses Oblit and BS and then proceed to say "do not use obliterate unless you are blood". It would only make sense if your last sentence was "Do not use Oblit as anything but Frost".
AH, okay. That is a typo I didn't see. You are correct, that should say Frost.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
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