Hi fellow druids :-)
i'm leveling my druid as resto in instances for the past 5 lvls or so. My current lvl is 65, armory link is in my sig.
as a quest reward for killing some dude in the mana tombs blizzard presented me with a dilemma. Normally i can figure it out myself but this is a though one.
option 1:
Haramad's Leggings of the Third Coin
when i gem 2x19 intellect and 1x19 SP following things happen:
* int: +43 (about 10% more then now so nice one)
* SP: +20
* crit: about the same
* sta: -15
* leather
option 2:
Haramad's Leg Wraps
when i gem 3x19 SP following things happen:
* spirit: +29
* SP: +33
* MP5: +14
* int: -24
* crit: -14
* sta: -15
* cloth
my current pantsies are Leggings of Concentrated Darkness
so the question seems to be: bigger mana pool or size down mana pool (and crit) and improve spirit/MP5.
I normally don't have mana problems. In most dungeons we can keep on going without pause and mana is always there. However in last mana tombs run I had to use innervate more frequently and even 2 mana potions mid fight.
What do you guys think?
Edited, Dec 27th 2009 9:08pm by Aesonus
Edited, Dec 27th 2009 9:19pm by Aesonus
Edited, Dec 27th 2009 9:19pm by Aesonus
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3c ------- LW
67 - int - 00
00 - spi - 33
51 - Sp. - 70
16 - crt - 00
00 - Mp5 - 14
We can remove 51 SP from either side because both legs have that much.
So it's 67 intellect and 16 crit vs 33 spirit, 19 SP and 14 Mp5.
I'm not sure how Mp5 relates to spirit for a resto druid, or what bonuses you get through talents but you can calculate how much time in combat you need before the 33 spirit and 14 Mp5 give more mana than 67x15=1035 mana.
So because I know little of druids I can't go further than this, but you can figure out just how much what stat gives you and what it's worth.
Edited, Dec 27th 2009 10:31pm by Aethien
67 - int - 00
00 - spi - 33
51 - Sp. - 70
16 - crt - 00
00 - Mp5 - 14
We can remove 51 SP from either side because both legs have that much.
So it's 67 intellect and 16 crit vs 33 spirit, 19 SP and 14 Mp5.
I'm not sure how Mp5 relates to spirit for a resto druid, or what bonuses you get through talents but you can calculate how much time in combat you need before the 33 spirit and 14 Mp5 give more mana than 67x15=1035 mana.
So because I know little of druids I can't go further than this, but you can figure out just how much what stat gives you and what it's worth.
Edited, Dec 27th 2009 10:31pm by Aethien
Scholar
40 posts
thanks for your answer Aethien
the numbers you give are without the loss of stats of my current pants. the way you put it, it would be:
3c ------- LW
+43 int -24
+00 spi +33 (indeed the bonus from gemming)
+22 Sp. +33
+02 crt -14
+00 Mp5 +14
good idea. compared to 43int (645 mana) it would take 68 seconds out of combat (645*5)/(33+14) and 230 seconds in combat (withouth the spirit due to the 5 second rule).
that's quite a lot if you look at it like that.
however spirit is also spell power and the total effect is harder to calculate.
and spirit is suposed to be an important druid stat :-S
i'm confused
the numbers you give are without the loss of stats of my current pants. the way you put it, it would be:
3c ------- LW
+43 int -24
+00 spi +33 (indeed the bonus from gemming)
+22 Sp. +33
+02 crt -14
+00 Mp5 +14
Quote:
you can calculate how much time in combat you need before the 33 spirit and 14 Mp5 give more mana than 67x15=1035 mana.
good idea. compared to 43int (645 mana) it would take 68 seconds out of combat (645*5)/(33+14) and 230 seconds in combat (withouth the spirit due to the 5 second rule).
that's quite a lot if you look at it like that.
however spirit is also spell power and the total effect is harder to calculate.
and spirit is suposed to be an important druid stat :-S
i'm confused
You don't have to super optimize at your level anyway. I would take the better Intellect piece since that makes your overall mana more sustainable for solo *and* group work.
Neither of the pieces is bad and suddenly going to make you unable to heal.
Neither of the pieces is bad and suddenly going to make you unable to heal.
Scholar
40 posts
Quote:
You don't have to super optimize at your level anyway.
agreed. but I want to understand the mechanics, also for future choices. you could say it is a matter of principle :-)
Quote:
Neither of the pieces is bad and suddenly going to make you unable to heal.
true, because i am a superb healer anyway :-)
Quote:
I would take the better Intellect piece since that makes your overall mana more sustainable for solo *and* group work
Solo work is not an issue, the focus is group play. and that's indeed my question: what is more sustainable? How can i do the most healing over a longer period of time?
Edited, Dec 27th 2009 11:15pm by Aesonus
Edited, Dec 27th 2009 11:16pm by Aesonus
Like Norellicus said both pieces will be good for you. :-)
A few generalizations about resto stats, so feel free to ignore the parts you may already know:
How good each stat is for you will be dependent on your build and which spells you use to heal. For example, critical isn't amazing as a throughput stat, but if you have Nature's Grace, Living Seed, and like to focus on Regrowth (or Nourish once you hit 80), it won't be so bad. Exactly how good is hard to say. How to effectively model Nature's Grace is a longstanding debate in the druid community. However critical's value doesn't really compete with haste in most circumstances before the soft-cap.
Spirit isn't really all that great of a stat either. When blizz changed the out-of-combat regeneration rate, and re-tooled innervate to work of the base mana pool, spirit became a much less appealing stat. Like I told one of the guys in my guild a while back, we (resto-druids) may get more out of it then any other class, but it still doesn't mean I want that $#!% on my gear. The only time you'll really be interested in spirit is once you aren't finding yourself mana-limited, and have soft-capped on haste.
Spirit's value, mana-wise, is usually placed below intellect and Mp5. Many druids will use a spirit/spellpower gem in their blue sockets if they want to grab a socket-bonus and don't need the Mp5, but that's usually the limit of it. Spirit is worth surprisingly little spellpower (only about 15-17 for every 100 spirit). IMO Living Spirit is probably the most over-valued resto talent...
A rule of thumb I use for myself: Spellpower = Haste = Mp5 = 2 Int = 2 Spirit = 2 Crit. But again, in a raid situation I try to gear for a 10+ minute fight, so Mp5 is worth more for me.
As for my opinion on the gear, it's hard to say without knowing more about how you heal and your gearing. However, I don't think you'll go wrong either way, having that many sockets is great for customization. :D
A few generalizations about resto stats, so feel free to ignore the parts you may already know:
How good each stat is for you will be dependent on your build and which spells you use to heal. For example, critical isn't amazing as a throughput stat, but if you have Nature's Grace, Living Seed, and like to focus on Regrowth (or Nourish once you hit 80), it won't be so bad. Exactly how good is hard to say. How to effectively model Nature's Grace is a longstanding debate in the druid community. However critical's value doesn't really compete with haste in most circumstances before the soft-cap.
Spirit isn't really all that great of a stat either. When blizz changed the out-of-combat regeneration rate, and re-tooled innervate to work of the base mana pool, spirit became a much less appealing stat. Like I told one of the guys in my guild a while back, we (resto-druids) may get more out of it then any other class, but it still doesn't mean I want that $#!% on my gear. The only time you'll really be interested in spirit is once you aren't finding yourself mana-limited, and have soft-capped on haste.
Spirit's value, mana-wise, is usually placed below intellect and Mp5. Many druids will use a spirit/spellpower gem in their blue sockets if they want to grab a socket-bonus and don't need the Mp5, but that's usually the limit of it. Spirit is worth surprisingly little spellpower (only about 15-17 for every 100 spirit). IMO Living Spirit is probably the most over-valued resto talent...
A rule of thumb I use for myself: Spellpower = Haste = Mp5 = 2 Int = 2 Spirit = 2 Crit. But again, in a raid situation I try to gear for a 10+ minute fight, so Mp5 is worth more for me.
As for my opinion on the gear, it's hard to say without knowing more about how you heal and your gearing. However, I don't think you'll go wrong either way, having that many sockets is great for customization. :D
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
Scholar
40 posts
Thanks for your answer someproteineguy.
contains very usefull info for me. I read the druid 202 but don't know what is outdated and what not. I also descovered a recent thread about a new tree asking for advice where you give an elaborate answer (New Healer - Needs General Advice).
what i remember most that spirit isn't al that usefull, that haste is important and everything depends on spec and healing style
about the mana issue:
I understand why you need MP5 (and also for fast lower level dungeons it's usefull if you can keep going) but i think I can handle my mana regen with innervate and an occasional mana potion (i'm a herbalist/alchemist).
a little contradiction is that you say for most druids int has higher value then spirit but in your rule of thumb you say 2 int = 2 spirit. if I use your rule of thumb i should take the spirit pants over the int ones but the rest of the answer implies that (it doens't matter that much in this case but) the opposit.
but if spirit isn't all that usefull I will take the int pants. I have some MP5 on rings/neck and some mana regen on a trinket (newly aqcuired and have to learn the use :-)
about the haste matter:
I really underestimated this part. I noticed recently that some heals didn't land because i clicked fast. in normal situations not that important but in stress situations in can make a difference. I will respec to get 5/5 gift of the earthmother.
about the healing style:
my healing is mainly based on applying HOTs and two ******* button's, like this:
I use healbot to click-wise maintain Rejuv > Wildgrowth > Lifebloom > Regrowth on the tank and whenever Wildgrowth isn't enough for the DPS I do the same to them to. When I know up front lots of damage is coming (i.e. before a boss) i keep lifebloom stacked on the tank so I can focus on the DPS when needed and lifebloom takes care of the tank for a while.
When heavy damage comes fast I use Swiftmend or Nature's Swiftness+Healing Touch (macro'd for healbot click in one) as my ******* buttons. I rarely use Healing Touch withouth Nature's Swiftness.
(and abolish posion and remove curse almost immediatly. longe live healbot :-)
my gear and spec is to be seen via my sig.
does any of that make any sense to you?
contains very usefull info for me. I read the druid 202 but don't know what is outdated and what not. I also descovered a recent thread about a new tree asking for advice where you give an elaborate answer (New Healer - Needs General Advice).
what i remember most that spirit isn't al that usefull, that haste is important and everything depends on spec and healing style
about the mana issue:
I understand why you need MP5 (and also for fast lower level dungeons it's usefull if you can keep going) but i think I can handle my mana regen with innervate and an occasional mana potion (i'm a herbalist/alchemist).
a little contradiction is that you say for most druids int has higher value then spirit but in your rule of thumb you say 2 int = 2 spirit. if I use your rule of thumb i should take the spirit pants over the int ones but the rest of the answer implies that (it doens't matter that much in this case but) the opposit.
but if spirit isn't all that usefull I will take the int pants. I have some MP5 on rings/neck and some mana regen on a trinket (newly aqcuired and have to learn the use :-)
about the haste matter:
I really underestimated this part. I noticed recently that some heals didn't land because i clicked fast. in normal situations not that important but in stress situations in can make a difference. I will respec to get 5/5 gift of the earthmother.
about the healing style:
my healing is mainly based on applying HOTs and two ******* button's, like this:
I use healbot to click-wise maintain Rejuv > Wildgrowth > Lifebloom > Regrowth on the tank and whenever Wildgrowth isn't enough for the DPS I do the same to them to. When I know up front lots of damage is coming (i.e. before a boss) i keep lifebloom stacked on the tank so I can focus on the DPS when needed and lifebloom takes care of the tank for a while.
When heavy damage comes fast I use Swiftmend or Nature's Swiftness+Healing Touch (macro'd for healbot click in one) as my ******* buttons. I rarely use Healing Touch withouth Nature's Swiftness.
(and abolish posion and remove curse almost immediatly. longe live healbot :-)
my gear and spec is to be seen via my sig.
does any of that make any sense to you?
Quote:
a little contradiction is that you say for most druids int has higher value then spirit but in your rule of thumb you say 2 int = 2 spirit. if I use your rule of thumb i should take the spirit pants over the int ones but the rest of the answer implies that (it doens't matter that much in this case but) the opposit.
Sorry if this part was confusing. Spirit won't increase your use-able mana in a fight as much as Mp5 or stacking intellect; once you are gearing for a raid situation. However Spirit has the small throughput component (boost to spellpower) as well. Many druids will consider this extra boost in spellpower enough to put spirit at least on par with intellect if you consider both throughput and mana-pool. Which one is better for you will be based mostly on whether you'd like a little extra mana, or a little extra spellpower, but the difference isn't all that large really.
I should also point out for the 'rule of thumb' I consider the amount of the stat per itemization point, not the pure amount of the stat. So 19 spellpower is more equal to 16 haste, then to 19 haste. But certainly take it with a very large grain of salt. It works okay for me, but the numbers will vary wildly from druid to druid.
Quote:
I really underestimated this part. I noticed recently that some heals didn't land because i clicked fast. in normal situations not that important but in stress situations in can make a difference. I will respec to get 5/5 gift of the earthmother.
Great idea. :-) If you move the points from Genesis to GotEM and from Natural Perfection to Living Seed, you'll likely see an increase in your healing potential.
To break down the pants thing a little more (loaded with personal opinion here really):
The intellect and spirit are going to be about equivalent in a generic situation. The 3 sockets will be about equivalent as well, since either gemming haste or spellpower is fine there, throughput wise (but that's likely because I'm in the habit of always gemming throughput *shrugs*). The Critical isn't probably all that useful to you from what you mentioned about your rotation, so I'd just put that aside. That leaves you with 27 (32 with socket bonus) spellpower on one pair of pants versus 13 spellpower + 14 Mp5 (with 4 spirit as a bonus, meh...) on the other. The big question in my mind, is whether you want the extra Mp5 or the extra spellpower. Of course if you really need the mana you can gem intellect or Mp5 as you mentioned. Since you have access to WotLK gems, a lot of the potential for the item will be in the gems, and not in the gear itself.
The hard part for really deciding which is best for you is that most of the sims/spreadsheets I know of are really meant for level 80. To give you an idea why things are so dependent on the individual healer; here's some of my throughput stat weights for different spells in my old gear I got using this spreadsheet:
Spell - HPET (HPSC) - HPM - Spellpower - Haste - Crit
Rejuv - 9788.49 - 35.83679216 - 3.039 - 2.446 - 0.000
WG - 22828.97 - 48.22391104 - 5.759 - 5.704 - 0.000
LB, Single - 5931.16 - 27.93728011 - 1.830 - 1.469 - 0.263
LB, slowroll to 3 - 8865.56 - 41.7590196 - 2.830 - 2.196 - 0.263
LB, rolling - 8803.18 - 13.88115709 - 2.998 - 2.180 - 0.000
Regrowth - 10517.68 - 25.19531154 - 2.270 - 2.763 - 0.621
Regrowth, chaincast - 10517.68 - - 2.270 - 2.763 - 0.621
Nourish, single - 5483.89 - 12.80307935 - 1.248 - 1.426 - 0.785
Nourish, chaincast - 5483.89 - - 1.248 - 1.426 - 0.785
Nourish, single, 1 hot - 6909.70 - 16.13187998 - 1.572 - 1.797 - 0.989
Nourish, chaincast, 1 hot: - 6909.70 - - 1.572 - 1.797 - 0.989
Nourish, single, 2 hots - 7238.73 - 16.90006474 - 1.647 - 1.882 - 1.036
Nourish, chaincast, 2 hot - 7238.73 - - 1.647 - 1.882 - 1.036
HT, single - 5525.28 - 13.7699546 - 1.226 - 1.467 - 0.946
HT, chaincast - 5525.28 - - 1.226 - 1.467 - 0.946
Swiftmend, Rejuv - 8402.62 - 20.41691797 - 2.608 - 2.099 - 1.485
Seiftmend, Regrowth - 6848.24 - 16.6400295 - 1.731 - 1.711 - 1.211
Tranquility - 18561.18 - 48.96607637 - 2.588 - 4.992 - 0.000
I can decide which stats are more important to me based partly on which spells I use to heal. For example whether haste or spellpower is more important for me will depend on which spells make up more of my healing. There's a similar workup for how long I can cast certain rotations until I'm OOM, which allows me to calculate how big of a mana pool I may need. The difficult part comes when you consider each encounter may force you to use different spells, as well as remove curse, etc; then life gets even more complicated...
Other spreadsheets and sims can do similar things. The hard thing is these spreadsheets are set to level 80 spells. After looking at this one a bit, it seems it would take a lot of work to convert it to work at lower levels. So it's hard to do more than guess in regards to your gearing situation.
In the end though, you'll likely always be the person who knows what will work best for you. ;-)
If you have any specific questions about outdated Druid 202 healing info, feel free to ask. I really do need to try and make an update to that soon :S However GotEM, and some of the advice about mixes of spells to use in a given situation, are the biggest pitfalls right now. That GotEM change really had some far reaching effects...
P.S. Alla is kinda no good for posting tables... :S
Edited, Dec 29th 2009 2:04pm by someproteinguy
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
Scholar
40 posts
waah, so much info. brain overload :-)
i will analyse what you said but i couldn't wait and bought the int pants already.
while buying gems I noticed I could gem for haste also so I did that (2 times 16 haste).
Do you maybe know an addon that measures the GCD? I would like to measure the effect of haste.
oh, yeah, and a happy newyear to y'all! ;-)
Edited, Jan 2nd 2010 4:51pm by Aesonus
i will analyse what you said but i couldn't wait and bought the int pants already.
while buying gems I noticed I could gem for haste also so I did that (2 times 16 haste).
Do you maybe know an addon that measures the GCD? I would like to measure the effect of haste.
oh, yeah, and a happy newyear to y'all! ;-)
Edited, Jan 2nd 2010 4:51pm by Aesonus
40 posts
Respec Feral and grind quests and mobs till 80
Much less confusing
Much less confusing
I've been leveling as Tree/Boomkin and am level 56 almost 57 now. Yeah I know I haven't really gotten into the really sweet Druid healing spells or talents for end-game but the gear question is still kind of relavent to me.
I'm going to try and answer your questions with my experiences up to now and some logic.... we'll see how it works out...
1) More Spell Power means that your spells heal for more and therefore you can do the same amount of healing with less mana.
2) More Mana = more heals = longer fights = more cushion for "oh ****" moments or when you have to spam Regrowth and Healing Touch (or whatever your best heal is not so mana efficient, but the same can be said for MP5 so
3) In a perfect world, you'd want Spell Power, Mana, MP5, Crit and Haste....but won't happen obviously so once you get comfortable with how YOU heal, you have to prioritize your stats.
=> If you are running out of mana, thats a big problem, fix that with more MP5 or Int, although which one you want will be determined by how much of each is on the item and where in fights you are going OOM. Long fights will have MP5 be more beneificial because the amount generated over the course of the fight will probably me more than just a flat increase in mana would be...you can use your head on this a little bit I think. You will have to look at your talents as well and ensure you're making the best use of them for your particular healing style and mana issues.
=> If you aren't running out of mana very frequently and are finding yourself casting spells with a cast time constantly, Haste will probably be the best thing for you, either that or Spell Power (more heals done by less heals = less casting), figure your own situation out, I'm just kind of thinking out loud at this point.
=> If you are comfortable with your healing as it is, chances are you have nothing to really work on, so go for whatever will make your job easier and for me that's spell power, others it would be mana, others would be MP5....but it will depend on your healing style and current gear. I have plenty of mana, nothing has Haste on it at my levels and the items with MP5 on ot have so little and the fights I am ever a part of don't last very long so Spell power is where I will be getting the most benefit, but I also don't really even look at Spirit right now because everything with Spell power has Int...and sometimes Spirit too but I haven't seen a Spirit heavy item with Spell Power so...yeah...my experience here is limited.
Sorry for babbling, but I found with that little mind dump of info that I figured out my healing style and therefore what my weights for stats are to me. Hopefully reading through it will help you prioritize your stats too. Now I really understand the whole preference thing for stats and talents, I'm not used to it coming from DPS mindset, really refreshing actually...
I'm going to try and answer your questions with my experiences up to now and some logic.... we'll see how it works out...
1) More Spell Power means that your spells heal for more and therefore you can do the same amount of healing with less mana.
2) More Mana = more heals = longer fights = more cushion for "oh ****" moments or when you have to spam Regrowth and Healing Touch (or whatever your best heal is not so mana efficient, but the same can be said for MP5 so
3) In a perfect world, you'd want Spell Power, Mana, MP5, Crit and Haste....but won't happen obviously so once you get comfortable with how YOU heal, you have to prioritize your stats.
=> If you are running out of mana, thats a big problem, fix that with more MP5 or Int, although which one you want will be determined by how much of each is on the item and where in fights you are going OOM. Long fights will have MP5 be more beneificial because the amount generated over the course of the fight will probably me more than just a flat increase in mana would be...you can use your head on this a little bit I think. You will have to look at your talents as well and ensure you're making the best use of them for your particular healing style and mana issues.
=> If you aren't running out of mana very frequently and are finding yourself casting spells with a cast time constantly, Haste will probably be the best thing for you, either that or Spell Power (more heals done by less heals = less casting), figure your own situation out, I'm just kind of thinking out loud at this point.
=> If you are comfortable with your healing as it is, chances are you have nothing to really work on, so go for whatever will make your job easier and for me that's spell power, others it would be mana, others would be MP5....but it will depend on your healing style and current gear. I have plenty of mana, nothing has Haste on it at my levels and the items with MP5 on ot have so little and the fights I am ever a part of don't last very long so Spell power is where I will be getting the most benefit, but I also don't really even look at Spirit right now because everything with Spell power has Int...and sometimes Spirit too but I haven't seen a Spirit heavy item with Spell Power so...yeah...my experience here is limited.
Sorry for babbling, but I found with that little mind dump of info that I figured out my healing style and therefore what my weights for stats are to me. Hopefully reading through it will help you prioritize your stats too. Now I really understand the whole preference thing for stats and talents, I'm not used to it coming from DPS mindset, really refreshing actually...
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